MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 22, 2007 21:37:13 GMT -5
The Greeks and Bulgarians don't have a large part of their Monastaries on that Land, do they? No, I didn't think so. Yes, I know. The AHE didn't want a powerful Serbia, and Italy didn't want Serbia to have a shoreline. This was in Early-1913. Albania, as a legitimate state DID exist, and its borders (That were similar to the current ones) exist on all maps that I've seen. This still doesn't explain why Kosovo is Albanian (Which was your argument at first). There was an Albanian Political Party in Prizren (Name Eludes Me) which wanted to join all ethnic Albanians into one state, and that idea/ideology only came about in 1878-1879, Ottoman Sultan wanted a "Unified Albanian State" (Greater Albania), but what most history books forget to mention is that, between 1878-1912, Kosovo (Then Vilayet of Kosovo) was cleansed of 300,000-400,000 Serbs, majority of which were cleansed during the Greek-Ottoman War in 1897. Loosing your nerve there buddy? Chill out, I'm only arguing with you to stimulate my brain, and to maybe, just maybe, learn something new. One thing is that, Croatia was never under any regime/monarchy of Serbia. So, your argument is a little... flawed? Kosovo however... Dude, it's who governs you that ownes you. So you just contradicted yourself. No, no. I'm listening dude, it's just that you provide me information that dozens of other books I own are saying otherwise. Kosovo is NOWHERE near a seashore. BTW, it was Ottoman Regions they invaded, not Albanian dude. Same goes for the Greeks and Bulgarians. Here's some Demographic information on Kosovo. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_KosovoInteresting timeline I'd say. I don't care about that. I'm just trying to find out why Kosovo Deserves to be free, after Serbs spent so much resources over all this time on it. Dude, don't say that Albanians "suffered" all this time, and that old chesnut.. So far, you ain't really convincing. Nobody is. 1. Yes actually, Kosovo is Serbia. It says so on every single map of the World/Europe/Balkans/Serbia. 2. Yes, Kosovo is a part of Serbia as well. 3. Formalities will be formalities. But we will see the result on Dec. 10th. If your people are so certain that they will get independence, why do they continually provoke the Serb population? Dude, Oskar Schindler saved 1,200 jews by himself. But nevertheless, Albanian treatment of the jews always did impress me, except for some incidents, but overall, very impressive. d**n. And I was just about to do a victory dance......... Yes, yes.. All, 1,000-1,500 of them went to Israel. This is due to the Zionist Movement of the early 1930's that was active due to the Jews living in diaspora all over the world, wanting a new state for Jews, in the "Holy Land" (Palestine).
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Fender
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Post by Fender on Nov 22, 2007 22:56:36 GMT -5
[/quote] There was an Albanian Political Party in Prizren (Name Eludes Me) which wanted to join all ethnic Albanians into one state, and that idea/ideology only came about in 1878-1879, Ottoman Sultan wanted a "Unified Albanian State" (Greater Albania), but what most history books forget to mention is that, between 1878-1912, Kosovo (Then Vilayet of Kosovo) was cleansed of 300,000-400,000 Serbs, majority of which were cleansed during the Greek-Ottoman War in 1897. [/quote]
MiG, it was the Austrians that actually promoted the idea of nationalism to the Albanians. Before that, they had no real sense of nationhood. The French really started it but the Austrians made it stick.They did this to only use them as a buffer against Serbia at the time.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 23, 2007 10:08:08 GMT -5
Alot of the 'Serbian' monasteries were built on older (Byzantine) foundations. But that's not the point. What people built several centuries ago shouldn't dictate political decisions of modern times. That's a dog mentality; p*ss on something and it's yours, regardless of who lives there. By such standards, I guess with all the Roman remnants along the Dalmatian seashore (such as the amphitheatre of Pula) Italians should have a good case on making territorial claims across the Adriatic. What you're speaking of is the 'Lidhja e Prizrenit' (Prizren League). It had nothing to do with the Sultan. The Berlin Congress had decided to cede over ethnically Albanian territories to Serbia, Montenegro & Greece. The League was created by patriots to oppose such imperialist moves. The Sultan, pressed by Russia and the West, finally sent 40,000 men under Dervish pasha to crush the League, and after two battles and other minor skirmishes, the League was defeated. Also, the figure of 300,000-400,000 expelled Serbs is the biggest piece of bullsh*t I have ever heard, and to see it come from a Croat makes me burst into laughter. For your information, and I can give you sources, it was the SERBS who began the ethnic cleansings by expelling some 60-100,000 Albanians from what is Southern Serbia, namely the territories around and in the towns of Nis, Vranje, Prokuplje etc. In retribution, these Albanian refugees who settled Eastern Kosova, attacked the local Serbs who consequently left (they accounted for some 50,000 people). But the way to Albania's seashore goes through Kosova and Western Macedonia, both of which were annexed by Serbia. Formally 'Ottoman' -- de facto they were Albanian inhabited territories and had been so for centuries. The Serbs only met qualified Ottoman resistance at the battle of Kumanovo. The rest of the resistance came from us. Or would you attribute all the glory and heroism of uskoks and heroes such as Zrinski to the Austrians and Hungarians, because Croatia wasn't formally its own state? Wikipedia is not a reliable source, since anyone can add stuff there. I mean, take just the defters of the 15th century as an example. That wikipedia article indirectly implies that Ottoman censuses registrated people by their ethnicity, which is bogus, atleast for that time. Yes, I guess Serbian resources (money) are more important than human lives. Yes, Albanians did suffer. You're dismissing that as if it was irrelevant. You cannot expect from us to live together with the same people who've systematically massacred and discriminated us. Our sufferings at the hands of the Serbs surpass your experiences ... and yet Croatian-Serbian coexistance is unthinkable, despite you being essentially only different in terms of religion. If Kosova is Serbia, then why call it Kosova? Regardless of how you see it, it has a distinct identity and should be treated accordingly. Maps are formalities, and as we know, formality does not always coincide with reality.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 23, 2007 10:21:46 GMT -5
?? The expert on Albanian history himself, Fender Actually, the nationalist movement of the Albanians started in Italy. We've had an Albanian community there ever since the 15th century. They are known as Arbëresh and account for some 200,000 souls today. Arbëresh romanticists (such as Jeronim de Rada) initiated the process of which you're talking of. The Austrians just helped us to achieve some of our goals ... just like the Russians helped and stimulated Serbian nationalism. Already in 1777, the Arbëresh Nicola Chetta wrote following: " Of honourable lineage in Contessa was born Nick Chetta, a scion of the Albanian soil. He went to Palermo, to the Albanian home Which received him like a featherless bird in a nest." [ftp]http://www.albanianliterature.com/authors1/AA1-04poetry.html[/ftp] Seems there was some amount of national consciousness among these emigrées. But it wasn't entirely lacking back home either: " The Albanians are my stock, And all my kin live by the sword. With ease, like falcons, these brave folk Forge their homes within the cliffs. This is the gift of those of Albanian stock, They are gems cached among the crags." By Jahja Dukagjini, 1498-1582
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 23, 2007 13:52:17 GMT -5
Aww, come on Donnie. I thought you were smarter than that. You should know that the modern day Italians aren't Romans dude. I thought you knew history better than that. Dude, the League of Prizren had risen and fallen, and risen and fallen, several times from what I've read. But eventually the Sultan had no choice and gave way, and actually supported a fully Islamic Albania in the Balkans. Why is that so funny about that? 300,000 people being displaced at that time is not funny at all dude. Your claim of Albanians being cleansed is false actually my boy. I have several books I own that say so. BTW, that 50K number is a little low isn't it . But when I defend that the Jasenovac numbers were as low as 47K, you explode in outrage. Dude you contradict yourself time and time again. Dude, if Albanias seashore was, as you claim, then the Albania itself would be a part of the Adriatic. Western Macedonia and Kosovo do not touch the Mediterranean or the Adriatic. Actually, Croatia was an Autonomus Kingdom, and was recognized as so. Comparing Croatia to Kosovo is a little too extreme, don't you think? Actually Wikipedia isn't as bad as people claim. It doesn't give much information about a certain event (Unless its North American history), but it sums it up plain and simple. Dude, maybe you don't notice, but people need valid sources to back their arguments, and they are provided at the bottom. Well dude, the discrimination and "massacering", goes both ways. Both of the people started doing that to eachother (I don't know who started first, I'll be honest, but I'll look it up). But I'm sure it was the Ottoman Empire that turned you against eachother. BTW, Croats are different than Serbs in more than just Religion. DNA, and Culture are factors as well. 1. It's not called Kosova, it's called Kosovo. 2. Yes, it does have a distinct identity. It is autonomus haha. 3. Formality always tags along with Reality. Because that's what Formality is based on. Hell, that's what everything is based on.
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Post by vinjak on Nov 23, 2007 16:15:01 GMT -5
I must admit, I am impressed by your sense of empathy for my people. I care about all Serbian citizens
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 25, 2007 9:57:57 GMT -5
And modern Serbs aren't the same as medieval Serbs. Even the medieval Serbian language showed more affinity with Bulgarian than the modern one does. My point remains intact. Hisotrical people from Italy, such as Romans & Venetians, have left a strong legacy along the Dalmatian seashore. The modern Italians are their descendants. By your flawed logic, the Italians have thus a good basis for claiming your entire seashore. Maybe your grandfather was one of Pavelic's consiglieri who suggested giving Dalmatia to Mussolini's fascist Italy? The League of Prizren was created 1878 and had nothing to do with Islamism (many of its prominent members, such as Filip Ceka, were Christian). It was crushed and disbanded 1881; it did not rise and fall 'several times'. Also, the Sultan never 'gave in' -- quite on the contrary, he sought to undermine the Albanians' national aspirations. If he wanted to promote an 'Islamic Albania' in the Balkans, why divide our territories into four vilayets instead of one autonomous vilayet? It's funny because it never happened. Kosova's population 1870 as a whole was around 350,000-400,000 souls, of whom approximately 60 per cent were Muslim and the rest predominantly Christian (around two thirds of whom were Serbian). 3-400,000 expelled 'Serbs' would have had severe consequences and not pass unnoticed; it would have left Kosova totally devestated and unpopulated, yet the population 1890 was around the same according to Austrian sources. Not even Serbs use your extreme figures (although Dusan Batakovic's estimate of 150,000 Serbian refugees between 1878-1912 is highly inflated, it's still much lower than your BS). 1. I am not your "friend". 2. Name one of those books and give me a quote where it says that the expulsion of Albanians from Southern Serbia is 'false'. If someone have the need to lie concerning this historical reality, it would be the Serbs. Yet not even they deny it. This is what the notorious Serbian nationalist and member of the 'Black Hand', Vaso Cubrilovic, had to say when describing Southern Serbia: " The regions of Prokuplje, Kursumlija, Leskovac up to Nis, were called 'Arnavutluk of Toplica'." *Arnavutluk is the Turkish term for Albania. Here are some accounts of contemporary, Serbian, witnesses describing the event you and your "books" deny ever took place; " In the winter, very cold and frosty, of 1877-78, I saw people running away, weakly dressed and barefoot, that had abandoned their warm and wealthy rooms .... On the way to Grdelica to Vranje, all the way to Kumanovo, on both sides of the road, corpses of children and old people could be seen that had died of the cold." Josif H. Kostic, Serbian teacher from the town of Leskovac." I saw frozen children that were falling on their mothers' embrace, or were carried in cradles. When mothers saw their children had died of the frost, they left them on the road side and continued running away. Corpses of old persons that had died of the cold could be seen on road sides." Sreten PopovicWestern sources aren't absent either: "Almost all the inhabitants of the western part of the Sanjak of Nis, who surrendered to Serbia, were the Albanians of the Muslim religion ,,,,, therefore, when this district was occupied by Serbian military, the population could not stand up to the invaders. All of them left for the Vilayet of Kosovo, deserting in this way the whole country." " 60,000 Albanian refugees spread out in the Vilayet of Kosovo in 1878. They have never gone back to their former villages, as most of them had lost everything." John Ross, Comissary of the Serbian border.The English consul Geuld complained about the unbearable situation with so many refugees coming from Southern Serbia. He estimated their number at 90,000 souls. Infact, a great(er) deal of Albanians in Eastern Kosova can trace their roots to Southern Serbia, and have often surnames indicating their distant origins, such as Nishliu (from Nis), Matarova (Matarovo is a village in S.Sebia), Bunjaku etc. It depends on what you mean. Perhaps in Croatia, 50,000 people is a small figure. Whereas in Montenegro, this figure is far greater due to that country's smaller and scarce population. Explode in outrage? Is that how you interpreted it when I wrote following; ' Well, that's your Croat scholar mentioning that figure -- not my estimates. If you ask me, I do believe that Serbian revisionists have falsified their numbers of casualties so as to win political points and sympathy in the West. ' Page 4 of this thread, reply 12. It's quite amusing seeing you ridiculing yourself. I give up here. You're either to thickheaded to understand, or you're just playing stupid. For your sake, I hope it's the latter. My point is nevertheless valid. There's often a difference between formality and reality. Albanian territories might have been officially under Ottoman reign ... reality was different. And when the armies of the Balkan Alliance attacked, it was our people that were massacred, our homes that were burned and pillaged. But your statement above is nevertheless wrong. Croatian nobility might have preserved their power to an extent, but they were still the subordinates of a Hungarian and later Austro-Hungarian monarch/emperor, not a Croatian one. Actually, Serbian discrimination and massacres against Albanians were far greater and extensive than the other way around. Not necessarely because they're genuinely "evil" and we good, but simply because they formed a modern state earlier than us, because they had a stable ally in Russia through which it could wield influence, and finally because they were always stronger militarily. Also, on the "who started first" subject; Serbia got a state earlier than us. They put their nationalist ambitions in motion earlier than we did. And so, when we speak of organized and institutional violence with a clearly nationalist motive, the Serbs were the first and the Serbs were always more brutal. Infact, our violence against Serbs was always more of a disorganized nature, often characterized by angry individuals or mobbs seeking revenge for their sufferings .... whereas Serbs exercised both methods. Yes, because we would be 'brothers' otherwise. How come then you Croats and Serbs are, or were, at each other's throats for not to long ago? If you still remember .... You're still closer to them than we are. 1. 'Kosovo' is how you Southern Slavs say it. We Albanians say 'Kosova'. I prefer using our own version and promote it. I'm not complaining on your pronouncation, don't complain on mine. 2. It is a UN protectorate. Indeed it is unique. Hopefully the UNMIK won't stay for too long. 3. Completely wrong. I'll take an example from where I live, i.e. Sweden. Until 1974, the Constitution said that all executive power was at the hands of the monarch, meaning the king. That is a formality. It did not comply with reality, however, since Sweden is and has been a democracy ever since 1921. Likewise, Kosova is 'formally' under Serbia (maps etc), but realistically, Belgrade is only influential in the sense that it can coordinate (and even this is limited) the political moves of the Kosovar Serbs, such as the appeal to boycott the latest elections.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 25, 2007 17:13:48 GMT -5
Naw dude, my Grandfathers were fighting for the Partisans. LOL! I never said I was, have I? No. I never said that there wasn't any expulsion of Albanians. In fact I never brought it up. Dude, calm down, don't lose your nerve, chill out. As I've only told you before, I might learn something from this discussion, that's why I was provoking your arguments in such manners. You seem to over-exaggerate the sufferings of Albanians, and you don't mention anything about Serbs. If you are to say that one side suffered, and another didn't (Alb. vs. Srb.), then that's a little one sided. You are an open minded person (As per what I've seen, maybe you aren't, I'm not entirely sure), but you should recognize the Serb sufferings as much as the Albanian sufferings. Everyone suffered equally in the Balkans. That means Everyone, including Albanians. What's actually amusing is that you think I'm ridiculing myself, but then you write that you don't explode in outrage? Dude, just look at your posts. Goes both ways Donnie. BTW, I give up as well, as you can already probably tell. (At least I hope you do). Funny how you argue, and still provide no valid sources dude. But hey, It's all good man haha, because it's funny how you lash out when someone is poking in the history of Albanians. But then when someone pokes through the holes of some of your arguments, it's a little too 'extreme' and not true right? Just chill out dude. Just because everyone in the Balkans disagrees with you, it's not the end of the world. ...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 25, 2007 17:51:22 GMT -5
Actually, in none of my replies in this thread have I 'bursted out in rage'.
As you admittedly said, you were out to provoke, which explains the lack of substance in your 'arguments'. But even if you'd try more sincerely, you'd end up just like the faction (to which you perhaps belong, or so it seems judging by your posts) which tries to make a case for Serbia's "sovereignity" over Kosova; they always get trapped in technicalities and a distant past.
Do I believe the Serbs to have been victims? Yes. But do I also believe that their sufferings have been exaggerated with the purpose of gaining sympathy? Yes. As I made clear earlier, it isn't necessarely a question of 'national culture' and who's most prone to conducting atrocities against the other party. It's a matter of resources and possibilities. In this respect, Serbs always had the upperhand, and consequently, saying 'all sides suffered equally' is just as erroneous as saying that all sides suffered equally during the Bosnian war.
In any case, to much evil has occured in Kosova for us to accept living under Belgrade's roof ever again. Perhaps the war of the '90s was such a long time ago that you cannot relate anymore. But let's hypothetically imagine that Croatia did not enjoy a republic's status in SFRY. And you were still forced to live together under one roof, because legalistic formalities technically put you within the same borders in a map.
Or perhaps I am telling this paralell to the wrong person, since from what I've concluded, you're not abhored at all at the thought of Yugoslavia's revival. But tell a fellow Croat from Cavoglave that you should remain under Belgrade! I am confident he wouldn't take it pleasantly, whether right oriented or a leftist.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 25, 2007 22:06:03 GMT -5
^ Dude, you could not be more wrong about several things.
1. Formalities are formalities. Which means Kosovo = Serbia.
2. I never stated that I wanted another SFRJ, I simply stated that a state like that (A United Balkans) could do a lot more for the people living in the region, than a divided balkans, which only benefits a few.
3. I never stated that I wanted Croatia under Belgrade. I stated that a united Yugoslavia would benefit people economically. Not as a political state, but as an economic union (Like the EU but only stronger, or NAFTA for North America, mainly the US and Canada).
4. Yes, my 'arguments' were to provoke some answers as to why independence is a better solution for the Kosovars Albanians/Balkans/Europe/World, but you have still not provided me with a valid and factual argument dude.
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