Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 21, 2008 1:28:33 GMT -5
TR said it. Following this same intuitiveness, i could mathematically prove the existence of God in less than 10 lines, but i live it as an exercise to the interested ones!
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Post by ILIRI I MADH on May 21, 2008 1:37:58 GMT -5
First: The space-time of the universe has a beginning at the big bang; however, before the singularity there existed mass-energy. Second: The law of conservation of mass-energy states that matter can not be created nor destroyed; there is no scientific experiment experiment, data, imagined circumstance or credible theory to suggest this law can EVER be violated. So the mass-energy of the universe ALWAYS existed. So we just save a step. God is not needed. TO suggest such a thing is just to salt god on top an already perfectly sound and consistent theory.
OWNED
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 21, 2008 4:26:18 GMT -5
Humans talking about God, remind me of the survivors of Oceanic, in the TV Series "Lost", during their first day on the island, arguing about whether there are other people on the island.
The answer about God is simple: We don't know s**t, and since no human(s) can even think of building a self adjusting/evolving universe/earth, and until we do (not in the next 1000 years, if you ask me) then God is there. We baptise this unidentified KNOWN force as GOD.
P.S.0 I think the quest for God at 2008 is kind of premature/
P.S. This was not the proof i was talking about, to prevent some of you of BS-ing.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on May 21, 2008 9:12:03 GMT -5
" But they must be infinite and everlasting, and they must be smarter and more powerful than we can ever dream of being, and they must have consciousness!" From our perspective they might appear that way but in essence I believe that there is no such thing, meaning something that is truly infinite and everlasting. Lets compare the creators with a Lab scientists, universe with Lab eprouvette. There is gases there, materials. At the end scientists create conditions for life (whether directly or by chance) and finally there is us as something so neglegable and insignificant lets call it self-concious 'bacteria of the bacteria' within such an eprouvette. To this 'bacteria of the bacteria' only a small section of the eprouvette that they are confined to might be somewhat known while anything else is a guess. The size of the eprouvette is a guess and what is outside it is a guess. Certainly scientists are a guess and if they exist they must be infinite and everlasting for they must be Gods, at least thinks this 'bacteria of the bacteria' for that split second of time that it exists (perhaps from 'Gods' perspective).
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Post by SKORIC on May 21, 2008 10:13:08 GMT -5
^ Makes sence
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 21, 2008 11:38:49 GMT -5
God met some scientists who said: Ok god we don't need u we can create everything u can in 2 seconds
God said: Ok make a tree
The scientist picked up some soil from the ground and made a tree
God said: NO! do it with ur own materials.
u get the point.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on May 21, 2008 12:30:59 GMT -5
Thats a good one Desire....
Science today is as primitive as ever.... we have made some advances in the digital/wireless world .. close the power switch and we are back to the beginning.... to our old selves, hunter gatherers. The point I am trying to make is we don't have the capacity to understand this force that is driving the universe...we can all sit here all day and theorize one thing to the other...but still we got squat when it comes to real proof.Millions are dying of diseases everyday ..trillions have been spent on Aids and cancers..... we can't even mend a damage spinal cord.... and some of you are telling me about the power of Science.... I find myself often pondering the big bang theory and how that played along with the power of imagination and reasoning that us humans posses... the power to question and to define..... how did that came into existence.... why we just couldn't be some spineless sexless jelly that roam the seabeds....why are we what we are...? I don't believe we will ever be able to unravel the secret of life...and when we do come close.... probably by the year 5550.... then we would cease to exist...
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Post by Toskaliku on May 21, 2008 12:46:38 GMT -5
Its not a matter of what scientists can create. Its a matter of what science creates, and soil is a byproduct of science.
The point you brought up is one of the worst points ever on the subject...
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on May 21, 2008 12:52:36 GMT -5
Soil is a by product of Science..... You wanna throw that by me again..... don't do that again and scram..explain it to simpleton guys like me... please..... I hope you meant nitrogen...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 21, 2008 13:00:37 GMT -5
Its not a matter of what scientists can create. Its a matter of what science creates, and soil is a byproduct of science. The point you brought up is one of the worst points ever on the subject... To put it simply: Humans CANNOT design an analogue or digital machine of organic or mechanical substance that will perform basic physical functions and that will reproduce it-self and auto-adjust its design/manufacturing to the environment and evolve around the changes around it. And i dont mean here of course bio-technology, thats just a naive attempt to forcibly modify the already existent genetic material of ready and "working" living creatures. I mean we are at 2008, and all the AI philology of the 80s bore no fruits regarding what this Science (AI) promised at the very beginning. We still have this Honda robot, that costs a fortune and its the only one that can climb stairs. I think like Canaris,Desire,TR that it is too early to even dare talking about God. Science should solve the basic problem of humans=Happiness, before dealing with more ambitious projects.
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Post by epiroti on May 21, 2008 14:13:57 GMT -5
Desire, YOU missed the point, just like TR did.
Since we can't understand the start of all this (creation of the universe), you go and say that a creator/god must have created it.
Either accept that we can't know the begginning of the creation of matter, or bring the creator into the equation but ask the same question with regard to him/her, i.e. who made him. And don't just say he we can't question his begginning - that's LAAAMMMEEE.
And again, as already mentioned in previous replies, the beggining of life - and the simplest form at that, because the complex life as it is now can be explained by evolution - is easier to be accepted as random chance, than as the work of a creator. Because if it was the work of the creator, then the creator was certainly far more complex than the bacteria (first signs of terrestrial life), making it far more unlikely to have come into existence.
It's impossible to protect the notion of god/religion through logic. But it is very comforting believing in it, and extremely hard to change your mind on the such an important belief.
I supposse that's why they call it faith - you believe in it without needed evidence. If you're fine with it, just continue believing. But it has nothing to do with logic, or facts... I am not trying to cause cognitive dissonance (confusion, pain, etc) to any religious person reading this. Just don't try to debate with us non-religious people when you know it's impossible to justify that faith.
I hope you all have a lovely time debating on this. I won't write anymore here because I have exams in a few days.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 21, 2008 15:03:24 GMT -5
By the mathematical-logic tools that we humans possess today, God exists. "Because if it was the work of the creator, then the creator was certainly far more complex than the bacteria (first signs of terrestrial life), making it far more unlikely to have come into existence. " With logic like that, God help you with your exams ;D
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Post by terroreign on May 21, 2008 15:45:10 GMT -5
^Epiroti, if I got your point right, YOU are the one who doesn't understand Something that is infinite, HAS NO BEGINNING, does this make sense to you?
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Post by Niklianos on May 21, 2008 15:47:18 GMT -5
There is a big difference between FAITH and actual hard evidence(something that can be proven.). There is nothing wrong if your Faith guides you and your beliefs, but some of us have way too many questions we need answers to. As for myself I like to question everything and cannot just accept that there is a single entity that just clicked it's fingers and created everything on earth. Now with that said I don't always agree with some of the accepted theories brought forth by scientist either. There is a Scientific Law in Paleontology called WASHBURN'S LAW which states 'The less we know about the fossil record the more confidently we can speak about it!'
I think this law can be applied to all fields and beliefs. Just something to think about.
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Post by terroreign on May 21, 2008 15:50:00 GMT -5
^^Use your logic, as I have done, and you will see that its not so hard to figure it out..
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 21, 2008 16:08:29 GMT -5
which scientist created logic?
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Post by terroreign on May 21, 2008 16:15:31 GMT -5
^I like your thinking
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Panos
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Post by Panos on May 21, 2008 18:25:11 GMT -5
Logic is universal, there isn't a human that cannot deduce the following: The number is greater than 1, less than 4 but not 3... Maths is universal, there isn't a society on earth that has a different understanding of 1 or 2 or 1+1, they may call it by a different name but the logic of math is a universal constant.
As to religion, it is our first attempt to understand something we may never totally understand, to look at this universe and then fob it off under the title of god is the biggest insult to our collective intelligence.
The breakthroughs that have been made in 'dark matter', blackholes and the rate of expansion have given us an insight into the universe that is infinitely greater than what we knew even 100 years ago. So the person who stated science has been idle of late, clearly has no understanding or appreciation of cosmology.
What is certain is this, there is no wisdom to be had in "holy books" and no real explanations are to be found in them either.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on May 21, 2008 19:12:33 GMT -5
Okay... other than 'guessing' what else have scientist deduced from this image from the Hubble so far? Other than say it's a creation of beauty and calculate how many light years we have to travel to reach it... we don't know nothing..... for crying out loud the ancient Greeks studied the stars with their bare eyes... I want to see some action... like a cure for the most deadly cancers.. diabetes... spinal injuries.... Only then we will be able maybe to send a person to our closest planet Mars... which by the way... we are not even completely sure if it's lifeless.... science has not progressed that much ..open up a science book from the sixties....
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Panos
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Post by Panos on May 21, 2008 19:44:48 GMT -5
Quantum Mechanics has been discovered. The fact the universe is expanding and accelerating has been discovered. The fact that some galaxies are moving away and some toward has been discovered. How planets and galaxy got their rotations and orbits has been discovered. This is just in the field of cosmology.
We now live 3-4 times longer, thanks to science not god.
With all the criticisms of science consider this, when it comes to the topic of understanding the world and universe in which we live - Science has given us many real answers and religion has given us none. Now that does not disprove god or a higher power, but it does strongly suggest that if one spends life pondering god, that is a lifetime wasted.
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