|
Post by yahadj on May 17, 2008 1:49:57 GMT -5
Sex shouldn't be considered as part of any stupid religion. It is something that is supposed to bring people pleasure. Why on earth it has to be connected with Allah, Christ or whoever? Even worse, who is the sick person who thinks about God when having sex? Sex and religion are closely connected because we humans are living on Earth. Why on Earth? Because we are not in Paradise. Allah SWT gave us the ability to multiply as long as we are on Earth. Sex was made pleasurable so that we like to do it and the result- multiplication. If we do it in the right way our kids get better chance of surviving and growing in more secure environment. That is why you have to do it responsibly and with one partner. We call that marriage. Allah wants us to multiply so that more people get a chance to enter Paradise... Why is that hard to understand??? Sex is a must... PEACE
|
|
|
Post by pagane on May 17, 2008 2:07:04 GMT -5
Listen, Yahac, I don't know what you are trying to say with this and I am not sure you know either. What I understood is that up to you, when we are in paradise, we won't be allowed to multiply, which means we won't have sex. I spit on this paradise of yours.
For most people on earth, a sexual act is not necessarily connected with having children.
You talk about yourself. I have nothing to do with your allah. And sex is a must... sure, we are human beings, after all. Sex is a need, just like hunger, thirst and so on. Why do you have to put your god in all this?! p.s. Isn't that paradise of yours a little bit overcrowded these days?
|
|
|
Post by vanilo on May 17, 2008 7:49:07 GMT -5
what u saying is true half way. I would agree about muslim religion but for men point of view only. When we talk about women in islam thats another story... Why is it a different story when it comes to women? It's actually not true that it's a different story for women. Both husband and wife is entitled to be fulfilled, sexually...if either part isn't satisfied a divorce is a right of the spouse who isn't happy. A man has no right to do anything against his wife's wishes that causes her physical and emotional harm (which means he can't just jump on her and demand sex whenever he wants to...not even try to set the mood to get his wife as turned on as himself). The wife has the right to be satisfied before her husband; i.e he has to put his wife's satisfaction before his own (I know though that a lot of men look past their wives and are quite selfish in bed to an extend where too many woman, unfortunately, never really experience pleasure - definitely not before their husbands). Lots of scholars have written books on sex and emphasized, for MEN, how important it is to not skip steps when it comes to sex. I wouldn't say it's for women's sake because I don't think it's only women who gain from foreplay and such. Anyway, I don't really understand where women, married to Muslim men, are deprived of anything and don't have rights when it comes to sex . Sure, women's rights aren't entirely the same as men's....we can discuss the "unfairness" in that the day women become exactly like men . For muslims sex is just for making babies, very detaching Again, not true. If it was then it'd be logical that contraceptives would be forbidden in Islam, right? 'Cuz hey, the only reason you have sex is to make babies, according to you. Guess what! Contraceptives aren't forbidden in Islam . Then Islam sucks. What is one supposed to do if he/she is not married? Get married. You have to understand that from a religious point of view sex isn't just sex, and what can come out of having sex, such as getting pregnant or catching a disease, are things that are believed to be things people HAVE to deal with responsibly and morally correctly. I'm sure we could argue until the end of time what the definition of that would be and still not come to an agreement when we look at these terms from total different perspectives . Luckily, we're able to make our own choices...and luckily, our own choices are the only choices we're responsible for .
|
|
Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
|
Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 17, 2008 11:50:50 GMT -5
Exactly right Vanilo.
Some people here are just talking out of their arses about subjects they don't know.
|
|
|
Post by julius on May 17, 2008 12:02:51 GMT -5
Vanilo is a different story for the simple reason that the woman cant marry 5 men for example. what u have to say on that? And she has to cover herself.
|
|
|
Post by vanilo on May 17, 2008 12:05:51 GMT -5
lol, Desire! ;D. ;D. True...I wish they would have at least explained themselves more so it'd be easier to know what exactly they think Muslim women lack... .
|
|
|
Post by julius on May 17, 2008 12:11:51 GMT -5
In christianity and islam wacking off is a sin thats from jews terro. As the myth says that guy pleasing himself was named Onan from which derived onanism. God punished him for his wasted sperm. Generally in both christianity and judaism sex was used for business purpose only. (making babies) Islam is more liberal on that but I think its because they were allowed to have up to five wives. Btw thats why they explode themselves from time to times. who can handle 5 wives? lol one of them could make a baby at least!! If not thats why the woman could divorce a man as Desire described
|
|
|
Post by julius on May 17, 2008 12:22:57 GMT -5
Vanilo what did the prophet say? " I saw paradise and most of them were poor. while in hell most of them were women"
Its something very important that u lack: A strong icon/character of a muslim woman. Jews have more of those famous women: Debora, Maria of John Baptist, Salome, Sara etc. Christians have a strong icon and many cheap copies.
While muslims...
So from women point of view I would go for jewish version. and from men, of course muslims.
A jewish woman and a muslim man would be a hell of a couple. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by skumbag on May 17, 2008 12:40:45 GMT -5
Religions are very kinky. In the Old Testicle , god helped the Israelites murder, rape, and pillage town after town. The founder of the 'holy' Quran was a warlord, pedophile, and rapist, and Christianity has priests that fondle little boys. Christ did not exist but people think he did, and even if he did , he was a lying prick along with the gospels.
|
|
|
Post by vanilo on May 17, 2008 14:25:06 GMT -5
Vanilo is a different story for the simple reason that the woman cant marry 5 men for example. what u have to say on that? And she has to cover herself. I have lots to say about polygamy, lol...but to stick to your question, I think you're asking me how I feel about women not being able to marry 4 men when men are allowed to marry 4 women, right? Well, first of all I think I need to make it clear to you that polygamy is an option that is attached to a whooole lot of demands and requirements that needs to be lived up to before it's allowed (for men) - so it's not like any man can just say, "hey, I fancy 4 women in my life! I think I'll go get myself some!", and then go for it. For instance, a man is only allowed to take more than one wife if he can financially support them all equally, treat them equally (even if he feels more for one wife over the other) and spend equal time with them. Each woman has the right to have her own house so the man has no right to refuse to buy each of his 4 wives a house of their own, if that's what they want. As far as I know, it isn't mentioned anywhere why polygamy is allowed for men but not for women. But I find that it's more efficient anyway to talk against polygamy, for women, by not using religion as arguement - just plain logic everyone would be able to understand . Say a woman is married to 4 different men...say she gets pregnant, which she most likely will with 4 husbands on her hands (or bed, I should say) ;D...how would you point out who the father of the child is? You can't naturally do that the same way a man can point out which one of his 4 wives is the mother of his child. In Islam it's so important for a child to know exactly who its' parents are, to an extend where adoption is, per (our) definition, actually not allowed. A person can raise another person's child but the child cannot take the adoptive parents' name, for instance, nor be considered the child of the person who raises it (as a general rule. But it's not that black and white - there are some ways where another person, than the biological parents, can be "made" into a "legal" parent. But that's another discussion...). There are probably lots more to argue against women having more than one husband...certainly also against men having more than one wife . I'm not trying to justify polygamy because I'm the biggest opponent to the concept (both for men and women) myself - because it's in my nature to be an extremely monogamous person and expect it back from my husband. The term is NEVER something I'd want for myself nor accept of my husband. The option is there but as a Muslim woman I have the right to let my husband know that I can't accept it - even demand monogamy from him . Now, personally, I think it's wrong to demand monogamy. I don't like the thought of telling my husband to stick to me only when what he really wants is to be with more women. If you don't like polygamy, don't choose a husband who wants to practice it - simple as that . As for women covering up, but not men, goes...I don't personally see it as women having less rights, in relation to sex, than men (necessarily - but of course, it depends whether or not a woman has chosen the veil for herself. If not then yeah, it is equivilant to her having less rights). On the contrary, I do see sense in women covering up (even though I'm a Muslim woman and I'm not covered up myself - in fact, all my tops are lowcut and I practically have nothing that goes below the knee). Let's face it, women have more "interesting" bodies than men do. Women are often referred to as the definition of beauty, men aren't. I don't expect men to understand what it's like to be a woman...but whether you acknowledge it or not, women get more sexually harrassed than men do. Let me tell you, sometimes it's extremely hard to choose the clothes you most like to wear (in my case: clothes that aren't too covered up), as a woman, and go to the most ordinary places without feeling...harrassed or invaded. As early as this morning I had a really uncomfortable encounter with a man who followed me for like 25 minutes and, when he got the chance, whispered to me that my breasts turned him on and he wanted to do all sorts of things to them :S. When I got mad at him and told him he's a @#$% twisted psycho he got angry at ME and said, "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! EVERY SINGLE MAN YOU'VE JUST WALKED PASSED HAVE STARED AT YOUR BREASTS AND THOUGHT EVERY SINGLE THING I JUST TOLD YOU! If you don't like men paying attention to them why don't you cover them up more?! For God's sake, they're almost hanging out! How can you expect men to NOT react to that?!"...I honestly didn't know what to say. I don't believe I'm asking for harrassment by wearing lowcut tops, because no one should be dictating, in any way, what you wear, but I also asked myself if I can really expect to make the choice of showing off my body without expecting, also, that men react to it - uncomfortably (from my perspective). I decided the answer is no - based on experience. But also because...well, I'm a girl and I know the first thing a woman thinks about, when she wants to turn her boyfriend or husband on, is what is best to wear in terms of showing off her body to him - because she knows that seeing her body is what he likes and turns him on. So why should that be different from any other heterosexual man? Why should any other heterosexual man not like to see you show off your body and react to it like your boyfriend or husband reacts to seeing your body? Whoever you're with PROBABLY found you attractive from the first moment they saw you on the street, at the party or whatever - before you hooked up...so it's not like your boyfriend or husband was blinded to the way you look and first started finding you hot AFTER you got together - it happened way before you were something, other than strangers, to each other. I didn't know this until New Years Eve but...my husband told me that when he first saw me he was extremely attracted to me, physiacally, but he thought, by the way that I look, that I have a stuck-up, biyatchy and snobby personality - something he's not attracted to at all, personalitywise. So I asked him why the hell he decided to walk over to me when he thought that of me and he said, "I was thinking with my thing between my legs, that's why ;D". Not that women don't look at men who show off their bodies...but with my husband, for instance...I was very attracted to him as well, from the first moment, but I definitely thought with my brain, not with my...body ;D. If he'd been a total jerk to me then I would have rejected him right away, however hot he is. It's definitely not as often that you see a, say, topless man awake the same...(do I dare to say) lewdness in women as topless women would do in men. That's just how nature is. I know NO girl who'd EVER stalk a guy she finds hella attractive. Whereas I know loads of guys who not only would stalk a girl they find attractive, but have actually done it on loads of occassions. What I'm trying to say with all of this is that women covering up has nothing to do with them having less rights (again: unless she is forced in a veil with no choice), it's got more to do with being aware of the general nature of men and women. Not that the veil guarantees immunity from lewd men...I know loads of veiled girls who encounter just as perverted men as any other girl does. But it's definitely not as frequent for veiled girls... And well...in the end of the day, God only ordered women to cover up, not men . If you're religious you believe there's a purpose with God's demands even if you might not get them right away. Vanilo what did the prophet say? " I saw paradise and most of them were poor. while in hell most of them were women" I know of that saying . However, there's no Islamic conclusion as to why the prophet has predicted that there're more women in hell. The most popular belief, among non-Muslims (but also Muslims), is that it must be because women are more sinful than men...more predisposed to hell than men is. Well, I understand why that's the first thing that'd come to mind...it's a more dramatical belief to have in comparison to say...that God merely create more women than men . First of all, Muslims believe in, and that, both the old and new testament were sent from Allah. Therefore, figures such as Sarah and Virgin Mary, are considered Muslim by Muslims. Just as Jesus is, Moses is, Isaac, Noah, Mohammed is etc. But yeah...we lack female icons because icons are forbidden in Islam - we don't have female ones nor do we have male ones . I do disagree though that Muslims lack strong female characters. I'm Shia Muslim and one of the most important characters for any Shia Muslim is Zainab and Fatima Al-Zahra. You can find more important Muslim female characters, from a Shia perspective, here. lol, My cousin is Muslim and his wife is Jewish. Funny marriage, that is ;D.
|
|
|
Post by pagane on May 17, 2008 18:26:53 GMT -5
Vanilo, I read your post carefully. You seem a really nice girl but I somewhat have the feeling that you want to justify Muslim religion first for you and then to explain it to others. I can't understand the way Muslim women think but I am not sure you are so convinced in what you are posting about this topic. I mean this - ok, a man can marry a certain number of women under given circumstances and so on. Can you tell me how would you feel if you were one of those?
|
|
|
Post by jerryspringer on May 17, 2008 18:43:30 GMT -5
The closest I ever got to sex:
|
|
|
Post by jerryspringer on May 17, 2008 18:46:26 GMT -5
Religions are very kinky. In the Old Testicle , god helped the Israelites murder, rape, and pillage town after town. The founder of the 'holy' Quran was a warlord, pedophile, and rapist, and Christianity has priests that fondle little boys. Christ did not exist but people think he did, and even if he did , he was a lying prick along with the gospels. I want this guy to be my president.
|
|
|
Post by c0gnate on May 17, 2008 19:14:18 GMT -5
Sex and religion?
Mmmmm. Yes. They both go well with candlelight, a little music and a bottle of red wine.
|
|
Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
|
Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 17, 2008 21:47:35 GMT -5
As Vanilo stated men have to meet a certain criteria to marry more than one women. If for instance that women is in need of help with child and on the streets and he offers to help her, says marry me and I shall take care of you until i; die- and love u equally and his first wife agrees ok.
But If he does it for greedy sexual needs then that is classed as a sin.
As for covering up.
It depends on the place... If im in some backward country where people r very conservative wouldn't walk about it revealing clothes, If ım at the beach I would wear a bikini, If im in a club ıd dress wildly. Its all about the place and surroundings.
A veiled female would get more attention in a bar then an unveiled women defeating the actual purpose of not attracting attention to herself.
being logical is important.
Also there are too many misinterpretations of the kuran- to know you must read it yourself. Only than will u get ur own message.
|
|
|
Post by vanilo on May 18, 2008 2:59:32 GMT -5
Vanilo, I read your post carefully. You seem a really nice girl but I somewhat have the feeling that you want to justify Muslim religion first for you and then to explain it to others. I can't understand the way Muslim women think but I am not sure you are so convinced in what you are posting about this topic. I mean this - ok, a man can marry a certain number of women under given circumstances and so on. Can you tell me how would you feel if you were one of those? You're somewhat right . I do, generally, relate things to myself when I let other people know about my points. I'm not sure why I do that, actually . But I wouldn't say I try to justify Islam to myself first and then to you...I feel like I, personally, have been at the place where I had my doubts and my wonderings about a lot of aspects in Islam (including polygamy)...I also feel like I've moved on from that place . So it's more like I'm explaining my belief rather than convincing anyone, including myself, about it...I hope it makes sense . As to how I'd feel about being a number in a row of wives...first of all, it's important for me to make it clear it's never gonna happen, lol. I don't accept to be part of it; polygamy is NOT for me in any way . I'm not a dictator though so I wouldn't tell my husband he HAS to stick with me only and force him to suppress his wish to have more than one wife - him only having one wife is something I want him to actually want himself. But let's say it wasn't...say, he came to me tomorrow and told me he wants another wife. Well, of course I wouldn't feel good about it...as I mentioned, I'm a very monogamous person, on top of me loving my husband a lot....I could not imagine myself bringing another man into the picture...so it would hurt me a lot if he can bring another woman into the picture. If that should happen I'd just have to face the fact that I'm not enough for him and let him go. Divorce him. No way I'm being "wife no. 1 out of 2/3/4". Me and my husband have talked carefully about the polygamy issue where he made it clear to me that polygamy is out of the question for him. It's not something he's ever wanted to practice nor considered to practice. Like me, polygamy is something he's very far away from because it's not something either of us have been raised into percieving as a normality. At all. However, I still made sure that the marriage contract included what is in MY right to happen in the worst case scenarios. Like, if my husband cheats on me, marries another woman, abuse me, my kids etc. even though things like that are as out of my husband's character as they can be. I chose to still get it down in the marriage contract because you can't be too careful in terms of securing your own wellbeing...having a mattress to fall back on if you're pushed out of cliff .
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on May 18, 2008 10:51:41 GMT -5
Fuck i hate religion.. anyways.. its a fact that for alot of people if they dont have sex or jack off often you get "wet dreams". So i dont know what priests are doing.. Wow to be a good practising christain i have to spoof my pants at night since sex before marraige, contraseptives and "whacking off" is a sin
|
|
|
Post by Red Brigade on May 19, 2008 18:28:36 GMT -5
"ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! EVERY SINGLE MAN YOU'VE JUST WALKED PASSED HAVE STARED AT YOUR BREASTS AND THOUGHT EVERY SINGLE THING I JUST TOLD YOU! If you don't like men paying attention to them why don't you cover them up more?! For God's sake, they're almost hanging out! How can you expect men to NOT react to that?!" aaaahahhahahaa That's the spirit.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on May 20, 2008 3:12:48 GMT -5
^What vanilo said is so true, I believe I mentally undress women at least 25 times a day depending on where I am.
Julius - that's interesting, I guess I mixed it up, looks like islam is actually more liberal concerning sex, the only problem I have is the covering up of the women, I love the Harems though and the wives (5 wives would be awesome).
|
|
Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
|
Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 20, 2008 9:19:46 GMT -5
Harems are not Islamic they were set up by the greedy Ottoman Sultans.
Covering up is the woman's choice at the end of the day.
Islam has a lot more freedom than most are aware, especially for women.
The main mistake that people make are: Mixing up Islam with the local cultures.
|
|