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Post by vinjak on May 5, 2008 21:23:06 GMT -5
It suprises me to this date at the lack of knowledge of events that started our Wars.
Forget the propaganda and let me explain, it was Slovenia that started the War.
Slovenias declared independence and by that declaration effectivley put in there hands all the boarder and customs posts between Italy and Austria.
There declared independence was annulled and proclaimed illegal because it violated the Jugoslav constition.
Slovenia then succeded unilateraly it altered Jugo boarders without consent of the rest of the country.
Slovenias prime minister then declared that Slovenia will take over the boarder crossings from Italy,Austria and Hungary the next day the Slovenes seized control of federal Jugo boarder posts and set up new boarder checkpoints on the croat boarder.
So Slovenia appropriated the right to goods heading to other republics as well as customs revenue ..75 percent of the Jug federal budget.
In response the Jugoslav government ordered the JNA to retake control of the state border in Slovenia.
origins of the seperatist movement ?
Macedonia and Kosovo
Slovenia was fed up with subsedising Macedonia and Kosovo and there was massive unemployment in other regions which they would have been expected to subsedise also.
So they succeded with no negotiation possible and thus started the War.
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Post by vinjak on May 5, 2008 21:26:10 GMT -5
The above leads to the irony of what is being said now by the Slovene government. The former Slovenian leader who led the country to independence in 1991 says the international community was wrong in recognising Kosovo’s secession. “The international community abolished an existing principle and deepened the crisis,” Milan Kucan told a Regional Managers’ Conference in Slovenia’s coastal resort of Portoroz. He said that in the case of Kosovo, the non-unilateral change of state’s borders principle was ignored. Kucan added that Europe had a chance to solve the Balkan crisis but failed to do so, adding leaders must now answer whether the rules applied in southeast Europe are valid across the continent. “Can Europe accept a doctrine which says that one nation, after all inter-ethnic conflicts, cannot live together with another nation because they belong to a different group, religion, culture and civilisation which blocks coexistence, making it necessary for them to be separated by a state?” the man known as the “Father of Slovenia” asked.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on May 5, 2008 23:40:22 GMT -5
because it violated the Jugoslav constition.
Could you provide some evidence to support your claims. According to the '74 constitution each republic had the right to independence if they so wished. This was exercised in the 1990's once communism fell in Eastern Europe.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 5, 2008 23:54:32 GMT -5
It was people like Fadil Hoxha who didn't want to compromise because him and his Albanians wanted to expand their territory.....it all started in kosovo and it will end in kosovo, believe me.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 6, 2008 0:16:06 GMT -5
It was people like Fadil Hoxha who didn't want to compromise because him and his Albanians wanted to expand their territory.....it all started in kosovo and it will end in kosovo, believe me. that sounded both poetic and prophetic!
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Fender
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Post by Fender on May 6, 2008 0:19:24 GMT -5
because it violated the Jugoslav constition.Could you provide some evidence to support your claims. According to the '74 constitution each republic had the right to independence if they so wished. This was exercised in the 1990's once communism fell in Eastern Europe. read the constitution, its all there.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 6, 2008 0:34:19 GMT -5
"that sounded both poetic and prophetic!"
Pyrro, l tried lol
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Post by Banatski on May 6, 2008 0:49:40 GMT -5
because it violated the Jugoslav constition.Could you provide some evidence to support your claims. According to the '74 constitution each republic had the right to independence if they so wished. This was exercised in the 1990's once communism fell in Eastern Europe. No. According to the constitution every nation had a right for self-determination. That's why there is a big doubt in legality of disintegration of SFRJ.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 6, 2008 0:52:32 GMT -5
because it violated the Jugoslav constition.Could you provide some evidence to support your claims. According to the '74 constitution each republic had the right to independence if they so wished. This was exercised in the 1990's once communism fell in Eastern Europe. No. According to the constitution every nation had a right for self-determination. That's why there is a big doubt in legality of disintegration of SFRJ. Plus all these borders are just obstacles to economy and the lifes of people. In Brcko, Backa Palanka i was tired to seeing ZU croat plates, in Croatia SM serb plates and in Serbia BiH plates
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on May 6, 2008 1:40:21 GMT -5
because it violated the Jugoslav constition.Could you provide some evidence to support your claims. According to the '74 constitution each republic had the right to independence if they so wished. This was exercised in the 1990's once communism fell in Eastern Europe. read the constitution, its all there. Yes your right, all the republics had the right to independence. Its all there.
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Post by vinjak on May 6, 2008 1:47:20 GMT -5
Yes your right, all the republics had the right to independence. Its all there.
d*mn man it aint that simple you cant just send a letter announce you want out and then wave goodbye....Duh
The succesion violated article 5 of the constitution, article 5 regulated the state boarders. What it stated was that borders could not be changed without all the republics and autonomous provinces agreeing to the changes. This means that nobody could leave the federation unless everybody in the country was in agreement.
The Socialist Yugoslav republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Macedonia) did not have the right to secede because the Socialist Yugoslav republics did not belong to the individual Yugoslav peoples. For example, Bosnia was defined by its constitution as an equal state of Serbs, Croats and Muslims and Croatia was a state of Croats and Serbs.
If you remember after anoucing its succesion Slovenia erazed all of its minority identitys and pronounced them all Slovenes because of the constitution in an effort to make it legal.
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Fender
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Post by Fender on May 6, 2008 1:52:04 GMT -5
Yes your right, all the republics had the right to independence. Its all there. d*mn man it aint that simple you cant just send a letter announce you want out and then wave goodbye....Duh The succesion violated article 5 of the constitution, article 5 regulated the state boarders. What it stated was that borders could not be changed without all the republics and autonomous provinces agreeing to the changes. This means that nobody could leave the federation unless everybody in the country was in agreement. The Socialist Yugoslav republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Macedonia) did not have the right to secede because the Socialist Yugoslav republics did not belong to the individual Yugoslav peoples. For example, Bosnia was defined by its constitution as an equal state of Serbs, Croats and Muslims and Croatia was a state of Croats and Serbs. Why do you bother vinyak. If the content of this discussion doesn't have an element of the Ustasa in it, then Cikola falls into a state of garbage and nonsense. If he had read the constitution, he would never had posted what he did. He enjoys posting from a state of ignorance and hopes to debate from that hopless stand point. In short, don't bother.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on May 6, 2008 2:05:51 GMT -5
This is a classic example of serbian propaganda which tries to shift blame on others, and tries to pronounce their actions as illegal, unjust, criminal etc all in an effort to minimise the role of their own murderous crimes, acts of aggression and genocide. If i wasnt mistaken, id think that this is all a result of collective 'serbian shame' because of the countries role in the balkan wars.
Gotovac made a famous speech on the streets of Zagreb where he said the following:
- Sramit ce ih se njihova djeca, jer nisu im bili ocevi. Sramit ce ih se njihove žene, jer su bili ubojice tudje djece. Sramit ce ih se njihove obitelji, jer su uništavali tudje obitelji. I guess he was right. This just proves it.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on May 6, 2008 2:30:06 GMT -5
^ Dude, every republic had the right to independence, But the condition was the agreement and acknowledgement from the rest of the republics, understand? Just like by Croatian constitution, it was illegal for RSK to separate and declare independence from Croatia. You still unclear? Raspad Jugoslavije je bio veci nego Slovenija, i Kosovo. To je bila krivica Zapada, jeli Jugoslavija je bila njima trn u oku, I zato su je i sjebali.
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Anthologic
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Post by Anthologic on May 6, 2008 2:34:27 GMT -5
TR and Cikola try too hard to be Sparta.
You guys can be funny in joke topics but stating your opinion here without being open to other facts is shitty.
ANYWAYS... I think we can all agree on this; "Goddamn Slovenians, probably better off not joining in 1945".
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on May 6, 2008 2:35:54 GMT -5
^^ here we go again ... serbs bitching about the destruction of their serboslavia. It cracks me up.
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Anthologic
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Post by Anthologic on May 6, 2008 2:52:51 GMT -5
Nah I always thought Slovenes should have been left out since their integration would have been like latvia/estonia into the USSR. And Macedonia? It's not even a real nation.
But if you want me to bitch... I think I'll start with black people and jews.
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Post by Banatski on May 6, 2008 3:09:51 GMT -5
Cikola,
You, sir, are a deluded fool. What did you say to counter the argument that Serbs have been an equal nation (not a minority) in the socialist republic of Croatia and that constitution confirmed that every NATION had a right to self-determination? Well, you said nothing except blatant lies that only reflect state of your mind.
Oh, and I assure you that Serbs are a big zero in comparasion to Croats regarding the propaganda capabilites. It's easy to prove that because your national TV and all the media practically live of spreading hatred towards Serbs. There's not a single day that Serbia and Serbs are not mentioned in HR, of course not in a very positive manner.
And to answer to your provocation "sramit ce se njihova deca"... You should just use simple mathematics. Count how many Serbs have been killed by Croats, and then count how many Croats have been killed by Serbs, and don't forget to check who used more brutal methods of murdering. You will then see who is to be ashamed using your standards.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 6, 2008 3:27:59 GMT -5
Banatski, media does not reflect public opinion. Media are controlled. People just listen passively and waive flags. But the fact is, that Croatia lives in a nationalistic dream, judging by how often you can see the croat flag on croat products (ozujcko, karlovacko, etc...)
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on May 6, 2008 5:14:01 GMT -5
^^ as opposed to the greeks yeah ... with their blue and white ahahahah. Not to mention the Italians with their italian colors on everything. U sir are a moron.
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