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Post by albquietman on Jun 18, 2008 13:22:40 GMT -5
It's taken from a blog and I found it somehow interesting: We’ve all heard of destiny, but what is it? Is it some guiding force within the universe looking after us, or is it a total fantasy? As often happens, ideas on the subject fall into one camp or the other. But maybe most sense lies in the middle ground. If we were to adopt this position, then we’d have to accept that a ‘force’ DOES have an effect upon our lives, but rather than being some omnipotent supernatural influence, it could be grounded in things we have a fair idea about. We already have names for its influence.On the one hand we have Sod’s Law, or the Cosmic Joker. This is for when destiny is cruel. Or alternatively, a fortuitous run at gambling is its opposite influence. Divination attempts to capture the ‘reality’ of our destiny. From Astrology to the Tarot, it is thought that what we are and what we do is somehow tied up within the fabric of universal influences upon which we have no control. There are problems with this idea.Most obviously, free will. The philosophical argument is simple. If our destiny is pre-set, then deviation is impossible. So what is the point of our ability to make decisions? It becomes, in effect, a pointless, unrequired ability. Divination does, however, make more sense if we reverse it. Thus, instead of laying out a ‘future’, it actually has an effect on the mind, answering questions we are undecided about, and offering answers that confirm where we think we want to go. In this sense, divination is more a system of counseling than predictive. Society also has an effect on our future.Through stereotyping and other social and cultural pressures, we all find that we slot into a ‘type’. In this way, society allows us to advance, or come upon a brick wall that inhibits us. Often, the individual has little control over this process. Coincidences can also appear to confirm destiny. Jung noted that some coincidences are full of meaning for the person. He applied the term ‘synchronicity’ to them, and they appear significantly more than simple random events. Is this some miraculous ‘outer’ force, deciding our destiny? Well, there are certainly ‘inner’ processes that could apply.For instance, we each have a specific mentality. We can have either an optimistic or pessimistic mind-set. If you’re lucky you will have a correct balance of the two. But for most this is not the case. And this could be vital to the idea of destiny. A pessimistic person will always see problems, whereas the optimist will see these as challenges. However, what we seem to experience will always be clouded by the particular mentality. Utilising a form of ‘selective attention’, the pessimist will remember the bad times, the optimist, the good. It also seems that the optimist has an advantage in life. Selective attention will give him the feeling that he can fly through life. His confidence increased, he may well do so through his own delusion of his abilities. Indeed, such a person is often classed as ‘lucky’. And lucky people, it seems, are better than most at calculating odds. Thus, when a future path opens up, the lucky optimist is more prepared to negotiate it without problem, whereas the pessimist will trip over every banana skin along the way. It is easy to see this as destined, as, indeed, it is. By the person’s own mentality. © Anthony North, June 2008 beyondtheblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/how-to-explain-destiny/
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Post by albquietman on Jun 18, 2008 14:28:49 GMT -5
By the way, I think the author is right when he says that our destiny is in our mentality, not something that comes from the heaven.
What do you guys think, if any thoughts about it?
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Post by rusebg on Jun 18, 2008 16:02:24 GMT -5
I would say that destiny and luck are almost identical.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 18, 2008 20:59:20 GMT -5
I think mentality and destiny are rather two different things. Also the destiny and luck. Mentality is not something that people are born with (in the sense of being optimistic or pessimistic), but by its association with everyday life, the place where one is born, the surroundings etc. Therefore, the mentality (which I would like to call it a position one choses to follow in terms of being optimistic or pessimistic) is created from many factors and no one is willingly pessimistic. Destiny means something that we already know how or where it ends. The endevours in life are not destiny, but simply accidentally being in a right place in a right time or vice-versa. And it is often being confused with luck. Something is for sure: there is only one destiny: the end of life. The rest is what we chose doing in our life until getting there, or what is being "decided" for us to become or be until the final destination. "Decided" means: a lower and poor person with no support will not succeed and most likely the child of the middle class will, as well as the child of the rich will be rich.
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Post by Arxileas on Jun 18, 2008 22:41:25 GMT -5
Mmm I don't know I'd rather things stay as a mystery... .
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Post by albquietman on Jun 18, 2008 23:09:05 GMT -5
I think mentality and destiny are rather two different things. Also the destiny and luck. Mentality is not something that people are born with (in the sense of being optimistic or pessimistic), but by its association with everyday life, the place where one is born, the surroundings etc. Therefore, the mentality (which I would like to call it a position one choses to follow in terms of being optimistic or pessimistic) is created from many factors and no one is willingly pessimistic. Destiny means something that we already know how or where it ends. The endevours in life are not destiny, but simply accidentally being in a right place in a right time or vice-versa. And it is often being confused with luck. Something is for sure: there is only one destiny: the end of life. The rest is what we chose doing in our life until getting there, or what is being "decided" for us to become or be until the final destination. "Decided" means: a lower and poor person with no support will not succeed and most likely the child of the middle class will, as well as the child of the rich will be rich. Of course mentality and destiny are two different things, so are destiny and luck. The author I think is highlighting the fact that we as humans can make our destiny in some way, and that means we can predict what will happen in our lives if we do the right decisions, and decision making involves our mentality, our state of mind. Mentality according Essential English Dictionary is a habitual or characteristic mental attitude that determines how you will interpret and respond to situations , so it makes sense that our mentality will affect our lives, our destiny. It depends on every person's mentality how to deal with different circumstances in life, and this is the line that divides an optimistic and a pessimistic...the famous half glass of water, the optimistic sees it half full and the pessimistic sees it half empty. Luck is a total different thing because it is unknown and unpredictable, and is not affected from our mentality. Being born rich is just a matter of luck and has nothing to do with the mentality...
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Post by fannoli on Jun 19, 2008 0:55:22 GMT -5
Im surprised to say this but for once i agree with Teuta. Another thing i wanted to add is that, we ourselves can improve our destiny and luck. By having an education, most likely you are going to have more luck in being richer thus also successful in life. Your destiny is also more predictable. Just an example!!
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Post by rusebg on Jun 19, 2008 6:43:46 GMT -5
Being born rich might be considered as destiny as well. I don't see the difference. It is something that is completely beyond you.
OK, let's look at a situation like this one: you are applying for a job you want very much. You are qualified, have nice references and so on. For some reason, however, your future boss who is interviewing you, does not like Albanians and so you are out. On the other hand, he/she might be very fond of them and you are in. Some people will call this luck, some people will call this destiny, in a sense "destiny is what made you start this job". What is the difference?
Btw, do you know what we say in Bulgaria about destiny? That if you are destined to drown, you will not be hanged ;D
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Post by bordura on Jun 19, 2008 12:11:43 GMT -5
we have something similar to that: A WC would never be struck from a Thunderbolt on the first moment it looks like luck (won't be struck), but it is destiny (thunderbolt WC don't mix) Teuta, Death? Yes that is biological destination, but i think the spirit of above thread it is more about things that involve life, or differently said: during life.
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Post by albquietman on Jun 19, 2008 13:26:23 GMT -5
Being born rich might be considered as destiny as well. I don't see the difference. It is something that is completely beyond you. OK, let's look at a situation like this one: you are applying for a job you want very much. You are qualified, have nice references and so on. For some reason, however, your future boss who is interviewing you, does not like Albanians and so you are out. On the other hand, he/she might be very fond of them and you are in. Some people will call this luck, some people will call this destiny, in a sense "destiny is what made you start this job". What is the difference? Btw, do you know what we say in Bulgaria about destiny? That if you are destined to drown, you will not be hanged ;D To see the difference, we must know first the definition of destiny and luck. According the Essential English Dictionary these are the definitions: destiny ['destɪnɪ] noun 1. an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future 2. the ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events (often personified as a woman) 3. your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you) luck [lʌk] noun 1. your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you) 2. an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that causes an event to result one way rather than another 3. an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcomeAs you can see, both destiny and luck, have the same definition if you read the definition nr.3 for destiny and definition nr.1 for luck. So you're right, it is confusing, but let's talk about your example. In your example I would call it luck, since no matter how you were prepared and qualified for the job (your mentality, your mindset and of course your intelligence made you to apply for the job), if you'll get it or not depends on the interviewer's attitude toward your nationality, and nothing you can do about it. In other words since you can't predict who's is going to interview you and his/her attitude towards your nationality, then I can classify it as luck. That's what I think at least... The Bulgarian saying about destiny is a good one... .
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Post by rusebg on Jun 19, 2008 16:51:51 GMT -5
This is true but in a way, your job determines how your life is going to be from that moment on. And job (unfortunately) is hugely important, it can effect your lifestyle, your relationships, etc. Isn't it some sort of destiny as well?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 19, 2008 19:37:56 GMT -5
I think that words are arbitrary signs. So, they refer to a notion or object, but the letters itself do not have any connection whatsoever with the object or notion they symbolize, except the onomatopoeia. Example: d-e-s-t-i-n-y; the letters alone tell me nothing. Is it a notion? According to the dictionary: 1. an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the futureIt is not clear because one can not say "inevitably" will happen in the future, since we don't know what will happen in the future and not "inevitably" things happen in the future. They happen to happen. Not inevitably, because: what is one thing that may happen "inevitably" except aging and death? For nothing else we can say: it will happen "inevitably" because we never know. So, we cannot predict what will happen, or even if we can, all we know is: we will start working someday but if it is going to be a good or a bad job, (or if no job at all) we cannot tell. Whatever happens, (out of our possibility to predict), after sometimes (when it already happened) we are inclined to label it as "destiny", which is not, for the simple fact that if it were our destiny means it could have never been changed. But it might be changed. So, since we realize our destiny only after it had happened, it cannot have been our destiny in the terms of being predicted as "inevitably" to happen. Because they may as well have been changed happening, depending on the circumstances. 2. the ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events (often personified as a woman) Predetermines the course of events cannot exist because the events in the course of time can be different and unpredictable. Let alone being a women ;D 3. your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you) That's simply life, but not destiny. We don't know the ending of it. And here the notion gets confused with the "fate". But also "fate" and "luck" are different. Also luck is what Albq said: something that happens all of a sudden and has no connection with the present, the place, the status etc . It is overall unexpected. And let's not forget "good luck" and "bad luck". We forget the last one when we discuss about "luck". So, what is destiny? It is a word that people invented to express a notion of something that has happened, or is it a word that names a phenomenon that....does not exist!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 19, 2008 20:00:40 GMT -5
Things that happen to us during life can only be our the so-called destiny...after they have happened. (It was my destiny). So, the term involves not something that labels "things that involve life", for I can argue that life itself involves things. Also cannot be "during the life" because the destiny as a notion involves things that happened during life. And we become aware of it exclusively after they have happened. And those things may have changed the course of "destiny" hundred times during the lifetime. Still, it is not destiny. Maybe "destiny" is: that something is going to happen in life and there is no escape from it And this is absolutism rule of life itself and cannot be applied to every each individual, but is the universality of life's circle itself.
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Post by albquietman on Jun 19, 2008 23:54:17 GMT -5
Teuta, I like your post, but I'm afraid that you're getting confused a little, because when we say destiny, it doesn't mean that it already happened. Referring to the article again, the author is trying to say that destiny is not something that comes from heaven, but we people, our mentality, our mindset makes our destiny, and if our mentality is optimistic, then the outcome will be the one we expected in some way. That doesn't mean that we predicted the future on empty bases, but based on our mentality, experience and ability to do something in life that will end up in the way we think it will. That doesn't mean that we know exactly what will happen, but the outcome in general. Let's take an example. Let's suppose that some people are enjoying themselves in a boat in open sea, and all of a sudden the boat sinks. Not all the people know how to swim. The ones who know, had the mentality at some point in their life to get themselves to learn how to swim, but the others that don't, didn't have that mentality. I guess we know the destiny of these people. The one who know how to swim will be alive, and the rest drowned, dead (supposing that they will not get any help). So don't we know the destiny in some way just because we know who knows how to swim, and who don't? On the other hand, destiny shouldn't be confused with fate. The are connected to each other as Wikipedia says: Although the words (destiny and fate) are used interchangeably in many cases, fate and destiny can be distinguished. Modern usage defines fate as a power or agency that predetermines and orders the course of events. Fate defines events as ordered or "inevitable". Fate is used in regard to the finality of events as they have worked themselves out; and that same sense of finality, projected into the future to become the inevitability of events as they will work themselves out, is Destiny.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DestinyI'm afraid that you are confusing these two, destiny and fate when you say:
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 20, 2008 0:31:18 GMT -5
Thank you AlbQ. I think the author is being confused here, when trying to use apriori the term (an indefinite term to begin with) as a definite one, by associating it with the optimism and pessimism, which is character and has nothing to do with the destiny. By the other hand, if I am to understand that the author of the article (and you) hold that "we create our destiny", then I would argue that our destiny cannot be created by us, since destiny mean "to have an end, a destination, as to "it is going to finish here and so". So, by default, we have a destination (end) of an event, which may have hundreds ways to get there. During these ways, there may be surprises, (good and bad), pain, pleasure, etc. Still the "destination" is inevitable. Here, the word "inevitable" takes the connotation of the "end" of something. But, if we do not even start this something, how can there be an end to it? So, the destiny is that there is a destiny for things in life, but not the things within it, and has nothing to do with us or some divine force, but by the notion we have for it. And the notion is that if we start something, it is going to have an end someday, being us optimistic or pessimistic, lucky or fortunate, smart or stupid, rich or poor. The small things in life that have an end are not destiny either. Are part of it. Part of what is going to happen after them, for there cannot be different destinies, but different paths to the destiny. It is sad and I sound like a "pessimistic": now, but this is what I think and has nothing to do with how a person's character is. The character is a set of behavior that guides us towards the path of the destiny and through it. They simply make us remember how hard or easy this path towards destiny was.
No. We don't know what will happen; we only know that something will happen. This is destiny.
And I can argue that the people who drown simply met their destiny before the rest. It was their destiny. (see the use of the past)
No. Fate applies exactly to the persons who were saved from the boat. Destiny applies to those who drowned. But it doesn't mean that the destiny was different because those people who were saved knew how to swim. But that the circumstances of life made possible for them to avoid the destiny awaiting the rest (who drowned) and that they are going to have another path in the life, longer, that will bring them to their destiny just as well. PS: think the same persons were in desert and the ones who know how to swim cannot survive in there. It will be all the reverse. It is the surroundings that determines the fate as to which half side will survive and that is determined by us, with the means of what we have had the opportunity to learn in life and what not, what the circumstances are and so.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 20, 2008 2:56:16 GMT -5
We are lucky to have Teuta here. Or were we destined to meet her in such a place?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 20, 2008 20:18:51 GMT -5
Maybe it is the "fate" we met here. But we were not destined to meet, for nobody knew we were going to meet. So, "destined" is not "predicted " nor "foretold". We could very well have not met. The fate would have taken a different path. We could have never met. But the destiny...does not exist! It is a conventional term of determining "fate". As for "lucky", it depends on the points of views. I too consider myself lucky to have met people here. And it was unexpected and nice
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Post by albquietman on Jun 21, 2008 0:08:57 GMT -5
We were destined to met in some way with these people here, because (and I'm using the same logic as before), all of us in some way have the same mentality, the same mindset, and that is the will to learn about our common history in Balkan. This reason brought us here...it's like the sports fans chasing their team every were. Of course they will meet with people with the same mentality, so in some way they made their destiny by meeting people with the same mindset as theirs. What kind of people are they, other than their mindset, that's when the luck kicks in. But I can say, as Teuta said, it was a nice surprise to meet some people here...virtually of course...
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Post by yahadj on Jun 22, 2008 0:55:40 GMT -5
Nice topic.
Each of us is born in a certain setting with a certain default qualities. That is part of the predetermined destiny in which we don't have much say. But we all get a chance for improvement based on the choices we make as we grow up. Here comes the role of the free will. Our life is a constant interaction of predetermined destiny and our free will.
The destiny of a society as whole is predetermined but individuals can take different roles. That one is shaped by our free will. Allah SWT knows the destiny of all of us. He knows our capacity and all the possible ways we can undertake and thus all of the possible destinies for each of us. In each occasion we choose our own option out of a handful availible options. One option leads to another and our mentality is being set in a certain way. Most of the following options are being shaped according to that mentality and the number of available options narrows down.
That is how our character is being shaped to a more self consistent individuals.
But throughout the whole process Allah SWT is above all of us and is aware of all our actions. Those who are guided to the right path are more likely to achieve it than those who are not. But at the end it is Allah SWT who determines the begining and the end and the course in between...
PEACE
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Post by albquietman on Jun 22, 2008 16:59:06 GMT -5
Nice post Yahac. I agree with in the most part of your post, except the Allah part. Not because I'm an atheist, but because putting Allah in the picture when we talk about destiny, kinda doesn't make sense. If you accept Allah as the one that determines our destiny, and he knows everything about it for every single person on the face of this planet, why then he has to give us options, a handful available options as you say. Isn't he the one that should take care of us and choose for us the best option, so we don't have to take a wrong turn in life?
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