Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 2, 2011 7:50:22 GMT -5
Novi bro only one word : Marko Kraljevic
nuff said...
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Nov 2, 2011 16:20:08 GMT -5
… but not that time poor that I won’t venture to explain to Chento that he is as Macedonian as the native Turks of Macedonia, as Macedonian as the native Vlachs of Macedonia, as Macedonian as the native Albanians of Macedonia and so forth … as Macedonian, basically, as any native inhabitant of the region (which is not to say that people of refugee stock cannot use the label geographically). But being a Slavo-Bulgar, descendant of the Slavs who came as invaders to the region some nine centuries after Alexander as well as of Khuber’s later Bulgars … carrying the Bulgar label until well into the twentieth century … and living in regions at best peripheral to ancient Macedonia, he is most certainly NOT more Macedonian than the native Greeks of Macedonia whose ancestors bore that name from birth. That is, he can never be more Macedonian that the Makedones themselves, who still inhabit the very core of ancient Macedonia and still speak a language of the same Greek family No amount of oversized statues of Philip and Alexander will change that fact … but granted he is no doubt more Macedonian than Boris Yeltsin. But isn't funny how it is the Slavic speakers of Macedonia who fight for an independent Macedonia? Have the native Greeks lost their way? Why do they bow down to the Athenians? Why don't they support an independent Macedonia? LOL What's funny is that you think you've actually made a point ..!
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 2, 2011 18:14:13 GMT -5
No, what's funny is the Greek economy....how will you vote in the referendum?
As for Macedonia, well we'll keep the issue alive for ever. Who needs the EU anyway. Look at the benefits it has brought you.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 2, 2011 18:18:26 GMT -5
Novi & Pyrros
The Slav tribes who settled in Macedonia were not Serb. Those Slav tribes have intermarried with various other peoples inhabiting Macedonia over the last 1,500 years or so. Whilst we speak a Slavic language (Macedonian), we are by no means, pure Slav. DNA tests show we have ancient Macedonian blood, aswell as Slav and other peoples. That is why we are Macedonian. We have been produced in Macedonia, from various people's, including the ancient Macedonians.
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Post by srbobran on Nov 2, 2011 18:30:45 GMT -5
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 2, 2011 19:43:52 GMT -5
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Post by srbobran on Nov 2, 2011 21:56:09 GMT -5
^That iGenea test was proven bogus a long time ago. I can show you far more accurate genetic tests (ones that actually list the haplogroups and not arbitrary genetic groups like "Illyrian" or "Slavic") and they all point to genetic kinship between Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, and Macedonians.
It's in accordance with your theory too that Macedonians were just Hellenized Illyro-Thracians as well. The Illyrians and Thracians also lived in Serbia you know and they were also absorbed into our ethnos just as they were Macedonia. How are we different man? We're Slavicized Native Balkanians. So I guess were just northern Macedonians eh?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 2, 2011 22:23:49 GMT -5
^That iGenea test was proven bogus a long time ago. I can show you far more accurate genetic tests (ones that actually list the haplogroups and not arbitrary genetic groups like "Illyrian" or "Slavic") and they all point to genetic kinship between Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, and Macedonians. It's in accordance with your theory too that Macedonians were just Hellenized Illyro-Thracians as well. The Illyrians and Thracians also lived in Serbia you know and they were also absorbed into our ethnos just as they were Macedonia. How are we different man? We're Slavicized Native Balkanians. So I guess were just northern Macedonians eh? Slavicized Native Balkanians Indeed we are. i'd be interested in reading this. do you have a link? or pm me.. hvala i pozdrav
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Post by terroreign on Nov 2, 2011 22:59:22 GMT -5
^That iGenea test was proven bogus a long time ago. I can show you far more accurate genetic tests (ones that actually list the haplogroups and not arbitrary genetic groups like "Illyrian" or "Slavic") and they all point to genetic kinship between Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, and Macedonians. It's in accordance with your theory too that Macedonians were just Hellenized Illyro-Thracians as well. The Illyrians and Thracians also lived in Serbia you know and they were also absorbed into our ethnos just as they were Macedonia. How are we different man? We're Slavicized Native Balkanians. So I guess were just northern Macedonians eh? Slavicized Native Balkanians Indeed we are. i'd be interested in reading this. do you have a link? or pm me.. hvala i pozdrav that whole slavicized illyrians theory has been debunked long ago...
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 2, 2011 23:42:23 GMT -5
Krivo, if you are a pure Sarmatian-Serb, then go back to Sarmatia...the Balkans are not for you...
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Post by terroreign on Nov 3, 2011 4:01:02 GMT -5
What sarmatia? Land is land, it doesn't belong to anyone but the latest ones to win it.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Nov 3, 2011 7:44:35 GMT -5
No, what's funny is the Greek economy....how will you vote in the referendum? I live in Australia Chento.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Nov 3, 2011 7:47:44 GMT -5
Novi & Pyrros The Slav tribes who settled in Macedonia were not Serb. Those Slav tribes have intermarried with various other peoples inhabiting Macedonia over the last 1,500 years or so. Whilst we speak a Slavic language (Macedonian), we are by no means, pure Slav. DNA tests show we have ancient Macedonian blood, aswell as Slav and other peoples. That is why we are Macedonian. We have been produced in Macedonia, from various people's, including the ancient Macedonians. Sure Chento … keep repeating this and you might actually convince someone other than yourself.
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Nov 3, 2011 7:55:22 GMT -5
^That iGenea test was proven bogus a long time ago. I can show you far more accurate genetic tests (ones that actually list the haplogroups and not arbitrary genetic groups like "Illyrian" or "Slavic") and they all point to genetic kinship between Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, and Macedonians. It's in accordance with your theory too that Macedonians were just Hellenized Illyro-Thracians as well. The Illyrians and Thracians also lived in Serbia you know and they were also absorbed into our ethnos just as they were Macedonia. How are we different man? We're Slavicized Native Balkanians. So I guess were just northern Macedonians eh? Srbobran, on the one hand you debunk – rightly – terms such as ‘Illyrian’, ‘Thracian’, ‘Greek’ and so forth as genetic descriptors and on the other you promote the idea that the ancient Macedonians were some sort of ‘Hellenised Illyro-Thracians’ as if there was any real genetic difference or significance that could be ascribed specifically to the Illyrians or Thracians as whole. The fact is that ancient Macedonians were Greek-speakers from their inception. If they happened to have mopped up any Illyrian or (more likely) Thracian ‘blood’ during their expansion, this would be expected. However, to identify a specific ‘Macedonian DNA’ in order to then make the comparison one would have to have a very narrow geographic focus indeed. However, in all the studies I have seen, or rather in deductions drawn from such studies, this is something that is not done. Usually what happens is that the broad ‘Macedonian’ area is taken as a whole rather than specific attention being given to those areas known to have been inhabited compactly by the ancient Makedones. Invariably the problem stems from the lack of historic knowledge on the part of those making interpretations from the study results. When taken in the broader sense the ‘Macedonian’ geographic area (basically defined by Greek Macedonia, the FYROM, and Bulgarian Macedonia) was heavily Thracian and Illyrian, particularly in its northern, eastern and north-western regions and Greek with respect to the regions inhabited by the Macedonians and the Epirote ‘Upper Macedonians’. But all these are ethno-linguistic terms. As always it is modern labelling that is the problem when it comes to genetic studies (IGENEA being a classic example of this). A given haplogroup/marker is likely to have been circulating in a given region for generations upon generations but is likely to have been carried by assorted Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, Phrygians, Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians (etc) over the ages. Put another way, what would someone centuries from now be looking for to determine the survival of (for example) ‘Serbian’ DNA? Of-course there is no such thing as a specific marker that describes all Serbs. Serbs today would carry a variation of markers (as would be the case with all identifiable ethnic group for that matter, whether ancient or modern). Yet despite this, all Serbs today would be counted as Serbs equally. Chento will just have to accept that if any antique DNA (irrespective of the specific haplogroup) has remained in the FYROM, it is far more likely to have been carried in the past by Thracians (Paeonians in particular), a good proportion by Illyrians and to a much lesser degree by Greeks - largely through the Epirote Upper Macedonians of Pelagonia rather than by the ‘actual’ Makedones of Lower Macedonia whose impact would have been very minimal. I understand Chento is from Pelagonia. As such he will simply have to be content with the fantasy that he may have Upper Macedonians (read ‘Epirote’) DNA. In any event Srbo, I would appreciate it if you were to point me to the study you refer to.
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Post by srbobran on Nov 3, 2011 11:37:35 GMT -5
I agree completely. The whole reason I argued from the genetic perspective is to show who pointless those studies really are. All ethnic groups are heavily mixed and especially in the Balkans. My point was to prove how close Serbs and Macedonians are genetically and if his basis to claiming Ancient Macedonians as his ancestors then it applies equally to Serbs. Since that isn't the case (for precisely the reasons you listed), his assumption is void. Here is one of the studies:http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v52/n5/full/jhg200754a.html Its not the full version but it summarized my point that Serbs and Macedonians very close genetically. Here is a complete list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populationsAnd before Chento bashes the fact that its wiki, the sources are list on the side. Compare the results for Serbs and Macedonians and they're quite similar. I have more genetic studies on the Balkans but school's a real bitch right now so when I finish midterms I will dig them up and post them. True. I think that all Balkan nations carry a lot of genes inherited from native Balkanians. I however, do not think that it is a legitimate basis on which to claim their history as your own. Serbs don't go around calling themselves Illyrians and Bulgarians do go aroudn calling themselves Thracians. We speak a Slavic language, aren't Pagans, and apart from a few cultural traits we have inherited from them, we have very little in common with any of the ancient Balkanites.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 3, 2011 22:05:18 GMT -5
^That iGenea test was proven bogus a long time ago. I can show you far more accurate genetic tests (ones that actually list the haplogroups and not arbitrary genetic groups like "Illyrian" or "Slavic") and they all point to genetic kinship between Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, and Macedonians. It's in accordance with your theory too that Macedonians were just Hellenized Illyro-Thracians as well. The Illyrians and Thracians also lived in Serbia you know and they were also absorbed into our ethnos just as they were Macedonia. How are we different man? We're Slavicized Native Balkanians. So I guess were just northern Macedonians eh? Srbobran, on the one hand you debunk – rightly – terms such as ‘Illyrian’, ‘Thracian’, ‘Greek’ and so forth as genetic descriptors and on the other you promote the idea that the ancient Macedonians were some sort of ‘Hellenised Illyro-Thracians’ as if there was any real genetic difference or significance that could be ascribed specifically to the Illyrians or Thracians as whole. The fact is that ancient Macedonians were Greek-speakers from their inception. If they happened to have mopped up any Illyrian or (more likely) Thracian ‘blood’ during their expansion, this would be expected. However, to identify a specific ‘Macedonian DNA’ in order to then make the comparison one would have to have a very narrow geographic focus indeed. However, in all the studies I have seen, or rather in deductions drawn from such studies, this is something that is not done. Usually what happens is that the broad ‘Macedonian’ area is taken as a whole rather than specific attention being given to those areas known to have been inhabited compactly by the ancient Makedones. Invariably the problem stems from the lack of historic knowledge on the part of those making interpretations from the study results. When taken in the broader sense the ‘Macedonian’ geographic area (basically defined by Greek Macedonia, the FYROM, and Bulgarian Macedonia) was heavily Thracian and Illyrian, particularly in its northern, eastern and north-western regions and Greek with respect to the regions inhabited by the Macedonians and the Epirote ‘Upper Macedonians’. But all these are ethno-linguistic terms. As always it is modern labelling that is the problem when it comes to genetic studies (IGENEA being a classic example of this). A given haplogroup/marker is likely to have been circulating in a given region for generations upon generations but is likely to have been carried by assorted Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, Phrygians, Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians (etc) over the ages. Put another way, what would someone centuries from now be looking for to determine the survival of (for example) ‘Serbian’ DNA? Of-course there is no such thing as a specific marker that describes all Serbs. Serbs today would carry a variation of markers (as would be the case with all identifiable ethnic group for that matter, whether ancient or modern). Yet despite this, all Serbs today would be counted as Serbs equally. Chento will just have to accept that if any antique DNA (irrespective of the specific haplogroup) has remained in the FYROM, it is far more likely to have been carried in the past by Thracians (Paeonians in particular), a good proportion by Illyrians and to a much lesser degree by Greeks - largely through the Epirote Upper Macedonians of Pelagonia rather than by the ‘actual’ Makedones of Lower Macedonia whose impact would have been very minimal. I understand Chento is from Pelagonia. As such he will simply have to be content with the fantasy that he may have Upper Macedonians (read ‘Epirote’) DNA. In any event Srbo, I would appreciate it if you were to point me to the study you refer to. If we use your logic then, the modern Greek province of Macedonia also does not correspond to the borders of the original ancient Macedon;
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Post by uz on Nov 3, 2011 22:14:07 GMT -5
srbobran is correct. Culturally/nationalistically speaking we can only claim what we hold. For Macedonians today to claim that is actually ancient Macedon is reaching the edge of blasphemy. They're more Slavic than anything, and this whole historical push to claim it is somewhat a recent phenomenon.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 3, 2011 23:23:08 GMT -5
srbobran is correct. Culturally/nationalistically speaking we can only claim what we hold. For Macedonians today to claim that is actually ancient Macedon is reaching the edge of blasphemy. They're more Slavic than anything, and this whole historical push to claim it is somewhat a recent phenomenon. Not sure what you mean by recent; Flag of independent Macedonia - March 2nd 1914 with Alexander's horse (Bucephalus), in the left top corner and sun in the right bottom corner over which is written "One Independent Macedonia".
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Post by uz on Nov 4, 2011 0:18:05 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's not there, I am saying the push is stronger than ever. Signs and symptoms of an identity complex.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Nov 4, 2011 0:44:40 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's not there, I am saying the push is stronger than ever. Signs and symptoms of an identity complex. I agree the push is on in more recent times (since independence). But you have to remember, that SFRJ and the Mak communists for many years suppressed Macedonian nationalism for the good of SFRJ. Many Macedonians (who advocated independence and Macedonian nationalism) rotted in Yugo jails, or were hunted down in the diaspora by UDBA. These commies left the glory of Macedonia and it's history to the Greeks. What we are seeing now is a correction, a re-balance, and the Greeks don't like it.
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