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Post by Arxileas on Oct 15, 2008 20:45:12 GMT -5
FYROM's extreme nationalism leads nowhere "A nation is a group of persons united by a common error about their ancestry and a common dislike of their neighbours." Karl Deutsch´s definition of a nation holds a great deal of truth, especially while dealing with one of the most troublesome regions of Europe; the Balkans. One of the challenges which the Balkans face at present is repairing the damage done to the region's reputation by recent eruptions of irredentism and nationalism. The ongoing dispute between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides. The issue doesn´t seem close to being resolved, however, so long as one side, Greece, has genuinely shown its willingness for the realisation of a mutually fair solution. Greece has already made significant compromise in that, while Greece´s initial stance in the 1990s that "Macedonia" could not form any part of a name solution, it has since accepted the inclusion of the term "Macedonia" as part of the neighbouring state's name, so long as that name includes a geographical/ semantic qualification such as "New" or "North". In stark contrast, FYROM has remained inflexible with its hard-line nationalistic stance, refusing to any compromise and undermining the ongoing UN-sponsored discussions to settle the issue. All this unwillingness and deliberate undermining of the process from FYROM´s side contributes to the deterioration of the good relations between two neighbouring countries. It constitutes a serious threat to the region´s future stability and adversly affects the economical development of FYROM, which will eventually lead to a permanent isolation. Increasingly disturbing is the level of fanaticism and nationalism among the Slavic element of this newly-emerged state. The modern state of FYROM asserted its identity and legitimacy with an official policy of attempting to appropriate parts of Greek history, mainly the history of ancient Macedonia. Examining the rationale behind this "justification" used by the state-sponsored propaganda, it is remarkable how paper-thin their arguments often are. FYROM propagandists have shown to be adept at convincing themselves of the rationality of even their most irrational claims. Goebbels said that "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it.". That quote couldn´t be more accurate in the case of Greece´s newest northern neighbour. Unfortunately, this kind of spurious adoption of stolen identity from their Greek Macedonian neighbours is reaching currently epidemic proportions. Curiously, the Slavic element of FYROM are so strongly indoctrinated with historical revisionism that they deny their South Slavic heritage and insist they are the direct descendants of an ancient Greek tribe: the Macedonians. Unfortunately their leadership is unable to face the current poor economic condition of the country. Instead the government attempts to direction attention away from these serious problems with an aggressive nationalism which teaches the country's children from a young age that their neighbours are currently occupying parts of "their lands" and the superiority of the "Macedonian race". Internal progressive voices in FYROM advocating compromise with Greece and a more modern approach to their national history are automatically branded as traitors. It is essential for the Slavic element of modern FYROM to acknowledge that opportunist politicians advocating this hardline nationalism are undermining, not only any possibility to join EU and NATO, but also the future of their country´s existence. As soon as these nationalist policies are abandoned by the political elite, Greece will have no reason to object to the country's NATO and EU accession and this will constitute a significant step forward in the region's stabilization. www.americanchronicle.com/articles/76844
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 23, 2008 18:04:32 GMT -5
"Curiously, the Slavic element of FYROM are so strongly indoctrinated with historical revisionism that they deny their South Slavic heritage and insist they are the direct descendants of an ancient Greek tribe: the Macedonians. Unfortunately their leadership is unable to face the current poor economic condition of the country. Instead the government attempts to direction attention away from these serious problems with an aggressive nationalism which teaches the country's children from a young age that their neighbours are currently occupying parts of "their lands" and the superiority of the "Macedonian race". Internal progressive voices in FYROM advocating compromise with Greece and a more modern approach to their national history are automatically branded as traitors."
That is completely true Arxil, the country has heaps of social problems which this historical revisionism is like a drug addiction that eases the pain.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 26, 2008 4:44:03 GMT -5
I agree, we need to meet the Greeks in the middle. Greece has compromised and Macedonia needs to too.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 9:45:19 GMT -5
8 million Greeks have compromised. .... but I know 3 millions who didnt with a percentage of 98%.... any guessing who might these 3 millions in Greece are? Of course not to speak about the 7 millions of diaspora... My personal view is... no compromise with irrationality! If the next 40 years the decide the be named Peloponeseans.... we must accept the North Peloponisous for them?! No and again No. Even a small compromise means that Tito succeed with his plan partially. And ghosts of the past must stay in their graves... not to show the way to the new potential ghosts of the world. If Fyrom succeeds in that... means everybody can distort history in an extend of 100% and then get the 50% back as real... officially!
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 26, 2008 16:33:26 GMT -5
Have you seen this study? www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=178Albania: 30% Illyrians 15% Phoenician 14% Hellenen 18% Thraker 2% Vikings 20% Slavs Greece: 5% Macedonian (in north more than 18%) 10% Illyrians 10% Germanic 20% Slavs 20% Phoenician 35% Hellenen Bulgaria: 11% Macedonian 49% Thraker 15% Slavs 15% Hellenen 5% Pheonician Macedonia: 30% Macedonian 10% Illyrian 15% Hellenen 5% Phoenician 20% Germanic 5% Hunnen 15% Slavs This changes quite a few things for me. I still don't personally think I belong in the Macedonian group but genetic proof is now staring you in the face.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 26, 2008 20:28:58 GMT -5
^ I'm suspicious nikolaa.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 0:58:34 GMT -5
Fine, you can be suspicious all you want. But keep in mind that history is written by people. And people sometimes have agendas.
Look at it this way. According to US history, Serbs were evil Nazi's who went on a genocidal killing spree of Albanians. Serbian history of course shows otherwise. But who are we to believe? A westerner will probably believe the US version of history while Serbs the Serb version.
Genetics however can't lie. It's possible that the people who perform these genetic tests may be twisting the truth but that's simply unlikely in this case.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 27, 2008 1:36:19 GMT -5
Have you seen this study?
www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=178
Albania: 30% Illyrians 15% Phoenician 14% Hellenen 18% Thraker 2% Vikings 20% Slavs
Greece: 5% Macedonian (in north more than 18%) 10% Illyrians 10% Germanic 20% Slavs 20% Phoenician 35% Hellenen
Bulgaria: 11% Macedonian 49% Thraker 15% Slavs 15% Hellenen 5% Pheonician
Macedonia: 30% Macedonian 10% Illyrian 15% Hellenen 5% Phoenician 20% Germanic 5% Hunnen 15% Slavs
This changes quite a few things for me. I still don't personally think I belong in the Macedonian group but genetic proof is now staring you in the face. You and your people have to realy snap out of these propagandas. How many times do you want to be embarassed with the DNA theory of yours? Your even making iGENEA sick and tired of you people. Beitrag von iGENEA am 28.09.2008 ALL OUR SOURCES AND DATA ARE PUBLISHED UNDER THE MENU POINT "LITTERATURE"!!!!!
PLEASE. STOP DISCUSSING POLITIC TOPICS HERE!! THIS IS A GENETIC FORUM AND I ALREADY EXPLAINED THIS ARTICLE OR REPORTAGE HAS BEEN WRITTEN WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION OR WITHOUT HAVING CONTACTED US. WE CANNOT VERIFY IF ALL DATA DESCRIBED THERE ARE CORRECT, GIVEN THAT WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND GREEK, MACEDONIAN OR ALBANIAN.
PLEASE WRITE IN THIS FORUM JUST IN GERMAN, FRENCH, ITALIAN, SPANISH OR ENGLISCH. ALL OTHER LANGUAGES WILL BE DELETED, BECAUSE WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT.
IGENEA IS A GENETIC LABORATORY AND WE ANALYSE ORIGINS!! THE MACEDONIAN PROFIL IS NOT THE PROFILE OF ALL MACEDONIAN!!! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PROFIL OF ANTIC!! MACEDONIANS!!!
NOT MORE POLITICS!!
Inma Pazos iGENEA Tel. +41 (0)43 233 81 51 info@igenea.com www.igenea.com
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 27, 2008 1:41:04 GMT -5
Geographic placement of populations based on DNA. East, West, South, NorthIf Europe was to be map of DNA with all Markers forming a geographic delineation, this is the way populations would be distributed. Vardarskans are placed within a cluster of northern Slavic tribes with Albanians between Greeks and them. Anomalies like SK Slovak is due to very low samples, one person in this case, and that person may have been an Italian immigrant to Slovakia. For the most part it is very accurate and depicts the degrees of DNA separation This DNA map shows that Greeks and Vardarskan have a relative DNA distance between us that is greater than today’s geographic distance. On a DNA level we are not neighbours.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 2:09:38 GMT -5
You and your people have to realy snap out of these propagandas. How many times do you want to be embarassed with the DNA theory of yours? Your even making iGENEA sick and tired of you people. I' am not posting on the iGENEA web-site, I' am posting here. Their complaint about political discussions is therefore irrelevant so I don't know why you are bringing it up. Besides, their message is directed towards Greeks as well as Macedonians.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 2:38:32 GMT -5
This DNA map shows that Greeks and Vardarskan have a relative DNA distance between us that is greater than today’s geographic distance. On a DNA level we are not neighbours. Samples are very low from the Balkans. bosnia 9 croatia 8 greece 8 cyprus 4 macedonia 4 turkey 4 albania 3 bulgaria 2 kosovo 2 slovenia 2 They only tested 4 people from Macedonia. And if those people were from Skopje (which it's obvious they are) of course they are going to be similar to Serbs. If they test Aegean Macedonians from northern Greece and southern FYROMacedonians then the samples would be the same as per the iGENEA study claims. Vardarskans are placed within a cluster of northern Slavic tribes You mean southern? And even then, the map clearly shows that the four Macedonians tested are nowhere near like Slavs. Look at the Poles and Russians. Way up near the top. Are you looking at the map properly? Greeks are not a race. Neither are FYROMacedonians, Serbs, Albanians, anyone. Country borders do NOT determine racial borders. There is a lot of overlap in the Balkans especially. I have met fellow Macedonians (real Macedonians) who didn't think I was Macedonian simpy because I looked nothing like them. I speak the same language as them, listen to the same music, eat the same food etc. I' am ethnically from the FYROM but I' am not racially Macedonian. Now, I'm not saying that every country should be formed according to racial makeup (how boring would that be) but, some of these harcore nationalistic claims by certain people need to stop.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Oct 27, 2008 4:01:29 GMT -5
So according to the DNA map Bulgarians are mix of FYROMians and Romanians?
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 4:48:07 GMT -5
So according to the DNA map Bulgarians are mix of FYROMians and Romanians? No, according to the map, the two Bulgarians tested are very close, racially, to the Romanians tested. Again, the sample is so small that you can't actually generalise and say "Bulgarians are the same as Romanians". They are merely individual tests. However, with a larger quantity of samples (the Spanish and Portugese for example), you can safely conclude that most Spaniards and Portugese are very similar to each other and unique from other Europeans. Same with Italians though I see a clear divide between northern and souther Italians according to this sample.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 27, 2008 4:51:59 GMT -5
nikolaa and ioan genetics is all pointless and some of you have just proved it above thank you. I wanted to show you those studies to see your responces to which you found faults already. But one of you was quick enough to praise the lord for seeming to have found the holy grail through funny genetic studies of your own People blood and DNA are not related to ethnicity. If I adopt any SlavoSkopian child I 'll make it a proud Macedonian like me. During our long history, we Greeks have hellenized many foreign peoples who settled in Greece. This also happened to the Greek pupils kiddnapped by Ottomans during the dark times. Now, those pupils descents are Turks. Besides Alexander had no DNA test to test his soldiers Macedonism for Fyrom's people from the ultra nationalist desporia to be making such genetic claims. .
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 4:58:43 GMT -5
Arxileas, the problem is that one of the main claims Greeks use against Macedonians from FYROM calling themselves Macedonians is that we are Slavs and have no genetic link to ancient Macedonians.
Well, iGENEA are proving that claim wrong. They have genetic samples of ancient Macedonians and they match the same with roughly 30% of the population of FYROM.
Now, if you're going to claim that culture determines who is and isn't Macedonian or Greek then fine, you have that right. But, that's an entirely different argument to the main one Greeks are putting forward.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 27, 2008 5:04:49 GMT -5
But who are the Macedonians and what is their language ? Just to clarify something.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Oct 27, 2008 5:22:39 GMT -5
I can't answer that. I can't answer that for ancient Macedonians either. It's a different argument altogether.
All I'm saying is that the descendants of those Macedonians are around today in south FYROM, northern Greece, west Bulgaria and east Albania.
That doesn't necessarily mean that their culture and values were passed down through the generations to their offspring though. We can argue that seperately and I suspect that will form the main argument for Greeks in the future.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 27, 2008 5:32:02 GMT -5
nikolaa I believe the game is already over for them.......We have no problem in calling them Slavmakedones like we have for a hundred years approx for geographical reasons. But they want to out right deny everyone else by monopolising this name including the true heirs to this legacy "the Greeks" The real Macedonians will already know the answer to who they were and what they spoke and wrote. Won't be this language. I guarantee it. .
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Post by BigBlackBeast on Oct 27, 2008 6:04:14 GMT -5
Have you seen this study? www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=178Albania: 30% Illyrians 15% Phoenician 14% Hellenen 18% Thraker 2% Vikings 20% Slavs Greece: 5% Macedonian (in north more than 18%) 10% Illyrians 10% Germanic 20% Slavs 20% Phoenician 35% Hellenen Bulgaria: 11% Macedonian 49% Thraker 15% Slavs 15% Hellenen 5% Pheonician Macedonia: 30% Macedonian 10% Illyrian 15% Hellenen 5% Phoenician 20% Germanic 5% Hunnen 15% Slavs This changes quite a few things for me. I still don't personally think I belong in the Macedonian group but genetic proof is now staring you in the face. What an absolute load of embarrassing sh.it. Defeated on every front the Fyromaniacs seem now to be resorting more and more to spurious genetic interpretations to prove they are related to the 'antic' Macedonians. Hey, retards there is no such thing as 'Illyrian', 'Hellenic', 'Macedonian' etc DNA. Where on earth could anyone even have extracted enough of a sample of ancient Macedonians to even compare? Stupid. Absolutely stupid. And it always amazes me how confidently (and foolishly) detected patterns can be ascribed to a particular historic group only to be contradicted by other studies and by other interpretations of what is observed. Whatever this particular study has detected as representing 30% of the Fyromaniac make-up and 5% of the Greek one cannot possibly be described as specific remnants/markers of the ancient Macedonians despite Igenea's apparent working assumption. First, the ancient Macedonians - and this applies to all the other groups for that matter - were not characterized as being members of a unique genetic group such that their genetic traits can so readily be detected. To my knowledge no other genetic study ever describes its results in such a manner; to even think this way is an enormous mistake. Second, if we were to look, hypothetically, for patterns/markers of the ancient Macedonians (for example) we would need to tidy up our methodology and to do our research better. The obvious thing to do is to first look at those areas most relevant to that ancient people. In the case of the ancient Macedonians this will have to include foremost the area in the foothills north of Olympus which historians are unanimous in accepting as the ancient homeland of the Macedonians and which - as it happens - was an area relatively undisrupted by later invasions thanks to its geography. Are there any detected genetic characteristics in this area? If yes ... we might tentatively ascribe it to the contribution of the ancient Macedonians. If no ... we may deduce that the ancient Macedonians in the strictest sense - being a relatively small and confined group of people - have probably not left us with any salient markers to speak of. On the other hand the interpereters of the study to which Nikolaa points seem to have first detected some genetic pattern (for arguments sake lets agree that they genuinely have done so) and, noticing that it described 30% of Fyromaniacs and 5% of Greeks (higher as a proportion only of northern Greece) concluded that it could usefully be labelled 'antic Macedonian' for no other reason than its apparent geography - certainly not because it resembled the DNA of ancient Macedonians. In other words the whole thing is approached backwards. Inma Pazos seems to be completely out of his/her depth when challenged by some of the more gifted posters to account for the source of this ancient DNA material on which deductions are supposedly based with one poster correctly pointing out how improbable it is to find viable DNA for study from ancient bones. Inma's evident incapacity to address the very pertinent questions posed by the more intelligent posters as well as the pathetic triumphalism and childish deductions of the Slavomacedonian posters actually makes for some entertaining reading...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 27, 2008 6:16:29 GMT -5
"Fine, you can be suspicious all you want. But keep in mind that history is written by people. And people sometimes have agendas.
Look at it this way. According to US history, Serbs were evil Nazi's who went on a genocidal killing spree of Albanians. Serbian history of course shows otherwise. But who are we to believe? A westerner will probably believe the US version of history while Serbs the Serb version.
Genetics however can't lie. It's possible that the people who perform these genetic tests may be twisting the truth but that's simply unlikely in this case."
US history is a contradiction. The US has given many war medals to the serbs and serbian americans for their bravery....remember the forgotten 500. Now they have stabbed us in the back just like the vardarians have done to the Greeks and Serbs. The serbs spilt blood on this vardar, not just during the balkan wars but before.....anyway, l won't go on because l realise vardarians don't have respect.
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