|
Post by pelasgian on Dec 6, 2007 9:42:41 GMT -5
I remember times when Polish, Czechs and other former Warsav Pact people were very amazed to taste a Coca Cola or a chewing gum.
At this time Serbia was just like any other western European states and even better then many of them, in particual Greece, Spain , Portugal etc.
But Milosevic took over and we know what happened after that.
Today Serbia in comparison to Czech, Poland and I dare not even mention Spain and Greece seems like the vice-verca in coca cola and chewing gum example.
This has to do solely with the ultra-nationalism.
Adult analyses only please.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Dec 6, 2007 9:48:52 GMT -5
Very idiotic assesment, espeically since throughout the Milosevic era western goods were present in stores (not to the same degree now, in fact now many of those same goods are more expensive then under him).
Furthermore, Milosevic is not an extreme nationalist -- he is an opportunist. Anyone calling him an extreme nationalist clearly is not aware of the true facts just what he's heard repeated millions of times in western media. Furthermore, it is more a result of Milosevic's idiotic economic policies (he and others he ruled with clearly had no knowledge of economics).
|
|
|
Post by Sar1389 on Dec 6, 2007 14:26:23 GMT -5
Adult analyses only please. It's like saying... Siptars actually have brains, please discuss intelligently. What type of intelligent discussion can come from a fallacy?
|
|
Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
Posts: 463
|
Post by Mimi on Dec 6, 2007 14:37:18 GMT -5
Adult analyses only please. It's like saying... Siptars actually have brains, please discuss intelligently. What type of intelligent discussion can come from a fallacy? no its like saying that Serbia had capacity of running a healthy and democratic state ;D
|
|
|
Post by sorryp on Dec 7, 2007 3:00:49 GMT -5
I bet the westies would be amazed to taste some Pashteta or Kisela Sir with 20% fat, i really think all thsese stories about bulgarian girls getting layed for a blue jean, or Pols not having tasted the chewing gum are just plain old stupid childish capitalist propaganda. Its too outdated and cliche to be served nowdays, dont you think Pelasgian?
Now the disintegration of Yugoslavia was a job of the west not Milosevic's.
The eastern block was not close to Yugoslavia, and the early (with Yeltsin) Russia was not closer to Serbia either. At the same time Yugoslavia which was closer to the west, became of insignificant importance to the (then) powerful west, while at the same time the *ONLY* live proof of successful Socialism!!, and thus the perfect target for the long lasting for revenge against Socialism west. UK and USA never defeated Communism in the open field (USSR disintegrated by herself... sortof), and they needed an explicit win. Well they found their target. In the meantime time, Germany who could not revenge any of their major former WWII oponents, "reliefed" her anger onto Serbia (mainly for WWI). Add to the picture the hawks of the vatican, whose hearts are so big that they can contain all the hatred accumulated against Orhodoxy thru the centuries. Now subtract for the picture any substantial help from the Orthodox Russia due to temporal lack of power, and we are close to the answer.
|
|
|
Post by sorryp on Dec 7, 2007 3:01:18 GMT -5
P.S. Sar its cool to know your OK!!
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Dec 7, 2007 11:28:37 GMT -5
I bet the westies would be amazed to taste some Pashteta or Kisela Sir with 20% fat, i really think all thsese stories about bulgarian girls getting layed for a blue jean, or Pols not having tasted the chewing gum are just plain old stupid childish capitalist propaganda. Its too outdated and cliche to be served nowdays, dont you think Pelasgian? Now the disintegration of Yugoslavia was a job of the west not Milosevic's. The eastern block was not close to Yugoslavia, and the early (with Yeltsin) Russia was not closer to Serbia either. At the same time Yugoslavia which was closer to the west, became of insignificant importance to the (then) powerful west, while at the same time the *ONLY* live proof of successful Socialism!!, and thus the perfect target for the long lasting for revenge against Socialism west. UK and USA never defeated Communism in the open field (USSR disintegrated by herself... sortof), and they needed an explicit win. Well they found their target. In the meantime time, Germany who could not revenge any of their major former WWII oponents, "reliefed" her anger onto Serbia (mainly for WWI). Add to the picture the hawks of the vatican, whose hearts are so big that they can contain all the hatred accumulated against Orhodoxy thru the centuries. Now subtract for the picture any substantial help from the Orthodox Russia due to temporal lack of power, and we are close to the answer. I agree with this, put these important facts need to be stated: 1987- Milosevic (a largely unknown and unimportant communist) be4comes head of the Serbian communist party due to his close relationship with the IMF and WB (he headed a branch of a Yugoslav bank in New York). This occurs despite the objections of liberals and most communists in Serbia and the rest of Yugoslavia because they view him as a diehard communist -- why did this happen it was because the IMF and WB (i.e. the west) loved him because he supported all their diktats on Yugoslavia. Gradually after 1987 Yugoslavia objects less and less to IMF and WB diktats. The economy starts to get worst. Ante Markovic in 1989 when he becomes federal PM starts putting in a proper shock therapy. However, the issue of privatization (meant to occur very rapidly under U.S. pressure) causes problems and the shock therapy starts to stall. With the shock therapy stalling and all improvements that occured under them deteriorating by early 1990 Yugoslavia's communists are no more and the three main republic themselves developed tgheir own reforms to circumvent Markovic's authority and often refusing to implement his reforms or recognize federal jurisdiction citing overlap and insisting on republican precedence in such cases. Basically due to this Yugoslavia grows into a bigger crisis every day. Then Slovenia chooses to get out of it through independence, and Slovenia is able to leave peacefully. Then when Croatia does the same contradictions in the Yugoslav constitution leads to problems. Germany -- trying to re-establish economic domination in mitteleuropa chooses to support Yugoslav seccessionists seeing it as the fastest way to do that. No country in western europe has the cojones to challenge Germany -- the most powerful state in Europe. The U.S. supports preservation of Yugoslavia, however this changes when Marxists in Serbia (where they still have a considerable amount of influence) call for the recognition of the August Coup authorities in the USSR. Once the coup fails does who are against the preservation of Yugoslavia latch on to this and use it to get the U.S. and other pro-Yugoslav state to no longer supports it's preservation.
|
|
|
Post by pelasgian on Dec 7, 2007 15:34:50 GMT -5
The brainless shiptars managed to bring 500 warplanes to bombard Serbia.
But this is not what I asked. My point is very simple.
Where would Serbia be today if it weren't for the ultra-nationalism.
- From 1999 would have started it's full cooperation with war crimes tribunal.
- By now probably a full member of EU.
- The booming economy
- Pensioners not dying of cold in a winter.
ETC ETC ETC
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Dec 7, 2007 16:50:15 GMT -5
The brainless shiptars managed to bring 500 warplanes to bombard Serbia. But this is not what I asked. My point is very simple. Where would Serbia be today if it weren't for the ultra-nationalism. - From 1999 would have started it's full cooperation with war crimes tribunal. - By now probably a full member of EU. - The booming economy ETC ETC ETC Again. I said ultra-nationalism is not at fault for Serbia's problems. Idiotic economic policies are. Your assesment is idiotic: - Serbia would never have co-operated with the Hague even post-1999 whether we had "ultranationalist" policies or not. Co-operation with them is illegal under our constitution and there is no support to change it. - EU. We probably would be memberss. - Booming economy. This wouldn't of happenned and people are delusional if they believe this. Even if the war did not occur the Balkans would have received the least amount of investment due to the rest of Europe being poorer then ex-YU and the other economies being too far from the core EU economies. Not ony that but if this persopn wasn't a provocateur he'd know that all the Balkan economies are booming in the Balkans (kosovo being 1 exception). So basically his point is meant to provoke. This does not happen and where the hell did you get such a stupid idea. I have a better suggestion. Why don't you defebnd your views instead of making 1 line sentences and trying to be provocative.
|
|
|
Post by pelasgian on Dec 8, 2007 0:07:30 GMT -5
Questions as I initially started are of one line the most, ideas and analysis can go on endless. Thanks for your contribution anyway.
Basically I am trying to come to grips with the Serbian reality. We all are aware that 25 million people in the former Yugoslavia suffered greatly as a direct result of Serbias actions.
By any standard those actions were far worse then barbaric. However this has passed and now we should be looking into the future, but if we don't learn from our mistakes then we know for sure that the future is bleak.
It's not that only Serbia suffered economically, morally etc. You probably have a vague idea of what the rest of the world thinks of Serbian people. While almost every politically educated person understands that it was the Serbian government that was foolish to fight against NATO, that does not suggest under any circumstance that the Serbian people are foolish too. In every nation you find good and bad, clever and dumbs. In a case of Serbian government yes they have been a bit dumb. If a constitution allows the destruction of it's own country and a great suffering of it's people then the logical thing would be to change the constitution.
And today I am curious to learn if Serbs: -Can live together with other nations (neighbors) -Can respect other nations (neighbors) -Will not cause troubles to other nations (neighbors). -Will not seek it's first opportunity to start a war against other nations (neighbors).
If that is not the case maybe an Israel type WALL between Kosovo and Serbia might be the answer.
Can you relate any of this with the present political state, present economy, country development, serbian evolution as a member of a human kind, or maybe your constitution does not allow it.
I am puzzled, but still curious!
|
|
|
Post by srbobran on Dec 8, 2007 0:42:31 GMT -5
Cut the crap and quit blaming Serbia for everything. It was only partially our fault. How were they barbaric? The new BOSNIAK-researched figures indicate a total death toll of 100,000 including many Serbs and many soldiers. The Kosovo figures indicate 2000 dead with both Serbs and Albanians being included in these figures. What's barbaric is inflating death tolls to get the rest of the world to gang up on a small nation trying to defend its borders (in Kosovo's case) or reassert its independence and national unity (Bosnia).
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Dec 8, 2007 12:53:41 GMT -5
Serbia's actions. You are clearly a provocateur and an anti-Serb. One, you do not even know the reasons for Serbia's actions. Two, you also clearly know nothing of the actions done by others. Three, it takes more then 1 side to cause a conflict so clearly Serbia is not at fault. Fourth, you seem to try to disregard the facvt that froeigners outside Yugoslavia did more to cause the conlict then the Yugoslvs themselves did.
Then what is trrhe point of your post. You clearly are not looking to the future since you are asking what could have been? This clearly shows you are trying to provoke people and not only that but that you are a hypocrite.
First of all, we know what the rest of the wolrd thinks of us. Second of all, we don't carfe. Thirdly, the world has the same negative view of Bosnians and Albanians. Fourth, the rest of the wolrd doesn't care since negative media about us was present in the west (and to some extent the muslim world) -- the rest of the world could care less about Serbia and what we did.
And many educated people think it was foolish for NATO to attack Serbia. Examples of these are Peter Handke, Noam Chomsky, Pele and so forth.
Clearly this shows you are not a person in favour of reconcilliation and a Serbophobe.
Your statement is idiotic and a lie for following reasons: 1. The constitution did not call for the destruction of the state. No constitution has ever done that. 2. Serbs did not craft the Yugoslav constitution. 3. Serbs were the first to try to change the SFRY constitution, the other members on the optherhand were opposed. These reforms probably would have prevented conflict but no the others were against them.
Firtst of all: - We can live as neighbours. - We do respect other nations. However, other nations do not respect us. - We haven't caused trouybles for other nations. Can you provide any evide4nce can you have or are you just going to repeat the line of blaming Serbs/ - Serbia did not cuase any war. Nor has Serbia participated in any war outrside it's conflict. Also, where is your evidence of us starting a war or planning one soon.
Kosovo is Serbia. A wall with Albania on the optherhand is a perfect so9lution.
Relate what. You made absolutely no point except to blame Serbia. No you say "human kind" -- as if Serbs are humnan, some one should really lock this article. Any current problems in our economy & development are due to our politicians economy. And any political problems are due to western interference into our affairs.
|
|
|
Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 8, 2007 13:43:02 GMT -5
With some of the things said here I would agree that Milosevic was far from any authentic nationalist much less an ultra nationalist and was in fact primarily a leftist opportunist. He was clearly pro-Yugoslav, rather then pro-Serbian, by orientation which can be seen by the fact that he maintained the name Yugoslavia for the state he ruled even though it was was in effect Serbia (being only one remaining). Two, apart from western backlash against leftist Yugoslavia which supported the unsuccessful coupe attempt in USSR (summer of 1991 if I remember correctly) there was another, bigger, reason for the backlash in my opinion. Tito's Yugoslavia was one of the founding leaders of anti-western Nonaligned movement and Titoist government helped organize many leftists anti-western movements in continents such as Africa, Asia and Latin America. This was done in a head on collision with countries like France, United Kingdom, USA or Israel. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement For as long as Milosevic was in power Yugoslav Titoism was alive and kicking in whatever shape and form and thus would have remained a target for the west until its full demise.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Dec 8, 2007 15:34:49 GMT -5
I remember times when Polish, Czechs and other former Warsav Pact people were very amazed to taste a Coca Cola or a chewing gum. At this time Serbia was just like any other western European states and even better then many of them, in particual Greece, Spain , Portugal etc. But Milosevic took over and we know what happened after that. Today Serbia in comparison to Czech, Poland and I dare not even mention Spain and Greece seems like the vice-verca in coca cola and chewing gum example. This has to do solely with the ultra-nationalism. Adult analyses only please. I'd love to think Serbia had much choice in the matter, but we are a small country who reacts (and hardly initiates) to historical events. Serbian nationalism was a reaction to the separatism and nationalism of others. We are blamed for acting in kind, for seeking to protect our interests (just as the separatists were seeking to promote theirs). If you want to look for fault, ask Albanians why they had to commence seperatist movements in 1980 after Tito died? Did they not enjoy living in Yugoslavia, and having a living standard twice as good as people in Albania? I suppose not. I suppose things are better for them now, with everyone having a dead family member, with unemployment and no economy and with crime everywhere? I wouldn't be surprised if most said YES, because they are close to getting independence. Well, if all that suffering is worth independence for Albanians, why wouldn't keeping Yugoslavia and/or Serbia together be worth it for Serbs?
|
|
|
Post by pelasgian on Dec 8, 2007 23:27:57 GMT -5
Mapco,
In 1981 Albanians in Kosovo asked for something that was not needed. They had almost everything; it's own Courts, Police Force, local ruling government etc. At that time most university professors were against the demonstrations. They knew that something was cooking underneath. From what I remember and heard few students were "paid" to incite other students into the slogan of Kosovo Republic. Students were warned by their tutors but the demonstrations still went ahead.
There are two possibilities here.
1 Many Albanians believe that these incitements were caused directly by the government in Serbia in order to bring in the special police and therefore as a result abolish the Autonomous Status of Kosovo. Milosevic did abolish the status later on.
2 Second possibility is that CIA planned, paid, organized students to seek Kosovo Republic status and as a result to destroy the Yugoslav federation.
I personally believe in this second possibility. And I even go further to believe that Milosevic was a CIA agent, just like Saddam, Osama and others. What makes me believe this is that whatever he did went 100% according to the wishes of USA.
And I am not a sort of guy that believes in coincidences.
|
|
Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by Anthologic on Dec 9, 2007 0:14:14 GMT -5
The large tree of failures begins its trunk with Tito.
Sad but true.
|
|
|
Post by radovic on Dec 9, 2007 1:22:38 GMT -5
1 Many Albanians believe that these incitements were caused directly by the government in Serbia in order to bring in the special police and therefore as a result abolish the Autonomous Status of Kosovo. Milosevic did abolish the status later on. 2 Second possibility is that CIA planned, paid, organized students to seek Kosovo Republic status and as a result to destroy the Yugoslav federation. I personally believe in this second possibility. And I even go further to believe that Milosevic was a CIA agent, just like Saddam, Osama and others. What makes me believe this is that whatever he did went 100% according to the wishes of USA. #1 is not a possibilty, no evidence of this exists and it seems ridicoulous for Serbian authorities to even contemplate something like that so soon after Tito's dead (especially since at the time the faults with the system were yet to be clear). This is regardgs to the 1981 disturbances. #2 is feasible and most likely. Milosevic's rise is linked to the support he had from the IMF. The IMF is known to have links to the CIA and other dicstators (i.e. Saddam) largely came to power through the help of the IMF.
|
|
Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by Anthologic on Dec 9, 2007 2:38:10 GMT -5
"Second possibility is that CIA planned, paid, organized students to seek Kosovo Republic status and as a result to destroy the Yugoslav federation. "
LOL I cannot believe I missed this before.
You give Kosovo and the Albanians FAR too much credit in the dissolution of Yugoslavia. I think you've given away your identity with that one.
|
|
|
Post by tripwire on Dec 9, 2007 12:28:22 GMT -5
Mapco, In 1981 Albanians in Kosovo asked for something that was not needed. They had almost everything; it's own Courts, Police Force, local ruling government etc. At that time most university professors were against the demonstrations. They knew that something was cooking underneath. From what I remember and heard few students were "paid" to incite other students into the slogan of Kosovo Republic. Students were warned by their tutors but the demonstrations still went ahead. There are two possibilities here. 1 Many Albanians believe that these incitements were caused directly by the government in Serbia in order to bring in the special police and therefore as a result abolish the Autonomous Status of Kosovo. Milosevic did abolish the status later on. 2 Second possibility is that CIA planned, paid, organized students to seek Kosovo Republic status and as a result to destroy the Yugoslav federation. I personally believe in this second possibility. And I even go further to believe that Milosevic was a CIA agent, just like Saddam, Osama and others. What makes me believe this is that whatever he did went 100% according to the wishes of USA. And I am not a sort of guy that believes in coincidences. You have the proof of this claim? Show evidence please, otherwise we'll be forced to call you Suart, trying to stir up the Serbs against Albanians, as if...they need your help in this dept.
|
|
|
Post by Pejoni on Dec 9, 2007 13:03:53 GMT -5
Kosova was never and will never be Serbian, you ppl cant simply accept the loss, and thats a shame... for being European
|
|