MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 11:24:46 GMT -5
Does anyone actually know why the war in Yugoslavia happened? To me all this sounds is like propaganda against propaganda. Why not follow the timeline? The roots of this conflict can be traced back into the 1920's. This war was about settling old scores for some, money for others, and expansion/nationalism for a handful. It was about principles clashing, and a suppression of more than 50 years of political questions that nobody ever dare asked (Or they'd be jailed). People just snapped.
It was an ideology vs. ideology war.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 11:40:23 GMT -5
Yes we were arming them, where do you think they received some of their arms from? Thin air? grow up.
Mig, I tend to agree also much propaganda; I think all sides had their reasons why this war had to happen but my point it and these Serbs clearly still cannot fathom it and I don't know why is that this occured on Croatian soil and we were defending Croatia, not Yugoslavia and not Serbia. They still cannot after almost 20 years understand, accept and apologise for what they had created there.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 11:45:09 GMT -5
In your opinion, what actually is the main underlying cause of the Breakup of Yugoslavia?
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 12:00:00 GMT -5
You do understand he is talking about 1990 and the begining of 1991. The quotes that were made by Spegelj and Boljkovac etc were made way before there was any war. Spegelj film: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7456935228727451929&hl=enSome quotes: * As for border posts, when border posts are disarmed, then they will be disarmed, all of them, as many as there are, but leave Albanians five bullets in their automatic rifles, and the rest locked up in cellars and given food and water if this goes on for a few days. As for this, if something happens, then just give instructions to all your people who you know. Kill extremists on the spot, in the street, in the compound, in barracks, anywhere. Just pistol and into the stomach. That will not be a war, it will be a civil war in which there is no mercy towards anyone, women or children, that doesn't concern us. Into homes, family homes, quite simply grenades. (Špegelj) * We are going to resort to all resources. We're even going to use weapons. Knin we're going to resolve in the same way. We are going to slaughter everyone. We have international recognition for that that we're going to slaughter them now that this whore won in Serbia. Now the Americans, on the second day when he won, offered us all assistance, and until then everyone was speculating, they would, they wouldn't, this way, that way, 1,000 combat vehicles." (Špegelj) * We are going to use all resources. We're going to use weapons as well. Serbs in Croatia will never be there again for as long as we are there and we hope until now too their supremacy is a thing of the past. Their Knin will never be Knin again. We are going to enter Knin too. Knin has to disappear as Knin. All Croats should bear this in mind and we are going to create a state created at all costs, if necessary, at the cost of shedding blood. (Boljkovac)
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 12:05:04 GMT -5
They aqlreadfy had arms. You seem to not be aware of the simple fact that every republic had militias with more arms then the JNA.
Where do you think the weaponry the Zenga had came from? The TDFs they were originally.
Where did the Serbs get weapons, from the TDFs in Serb areas.
And anyways, when the Spegelj tapesx -- released in January of 1991 -- were found out the Croats had started buying weapons from Germans, the Brits and of course excess weapons that all the commie countries wanted to get rid off.
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 12:10:17 GMT -5
Sure every citizen had arms, bullet proof vests etc to defend themselves right? You got to be kidding right?
Skoric I don't need no quotes. He clearly knew what would eventuate, an impending war. As he said, Serb supremecy a thing of the past, no matter how much Milosevic wanted to keep it going. So he made comments in response to that. Any opposition would do that.
MiG, the main issue in my eyes was money, economics and greed, but then again these same principles were applied while it was still in existance. Also I didn't think a made up country and economy such as Yugoslavia could have lasted anyway, no matter how much anyone wanted to save it. At the beginning some people were all for Yugoslavia, to only see a few years later what they were promises i.e jobs etc did not eventuate. Just see the mass excodus of Croats for key areas from late 40's to say mid 50's to the States because of this. It's simple maths.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 12:19:05 GMT -5
They aqlreadfy had arms. You seem to not be aware of the simple fact that every republic had militias with more arms then the JNA. Where do you think the weaponry the Zenga had came from? The TDFs they were originally. Where did the Serbs get weapons, from the TDFs in Serb areas. And anyways, when the Spegelj tapesx -- released in January of 1991 -- were found out the Croats had started buying weapons from Germans, the Brits and of course excess weapons that all the commie countries wanted to get rid off. Why did this start happening? Why did the Croats all of a sudden rise up in a nationalist way? Nobody just snaps one day in the Summer of 1990 and says these things. Sure every citizen had arms, bullet proof vests etc to defend themselves right? You got to be kidding right? Skoric I don't need no quotes. He clearly knew what would eventuate, an impending war. As he said, Serb supremecy a thing of the past, no matter how much Milosevic wanted to keep it going. So he made comments in response to that. Any opposition would do that. MiG, the main issue in my eyes was money, economics and greed, but then again these same principles were applied while it was still in existance. Also I didn't think a made up country and economy such as Yugoslavia could have lasted anyway, no matter how much anyone wanted to save it. At the beginning some people were all for Yugoslavia, to only see a few years later what they were promises i.e jobs etc did not eventuate. Just see the mass excodus of Croats for key areas from late 40's to say mid 50's to the States because of this. It's simple maths. So that's your main reason for the breakup? It was a made up nation? Aren't all nations just made up?
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 12:37:31 GMT -5
Ok. As I said Yugoslavia was bound to come apart, it was a false nation and a false economy with many deficits. In the late 80's the old communists such as Milosevic and then later Franjo saw their way to be a part of something new. Unfortunately independence came with war and much bloodshed. Because of these two men and many others for a couple years leading to the war, much propaganda was slung first by preko drina and then on our side when we knew something was impending and they thought by declearing independence a war would start. So naturally they needed support and people you thought were your neighbours were not (which they wern't all along anyway!) because of this propaganda! If we just became an independent state decades earlier (which many people wanted all along but we had no int'l support for) in peace and truth none of this would have happened. This is why I too blame Croats for letting this occur, letting Yugoslavia last so long and letting our own people betray us and use us when the s**t hit the fan.
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 12:50:00 GMT -5
illyrias quotes: He clearly knew what would eventuate, an impending war. As he said, Serb supremecy a thing of the past, no matter how much Milosevic wanted to keep it going. So he made comments in response to that. Any opposition would do that. First you say it all started for Croats standing up for themselves in Vukovar then you say they knew what was comming lol In respose you what exactly?
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 13:10:40 GMT -5
I never said that's how it started so stop miaquoting me. Re my last post, many people did not fathom what would happen, and when we saw what did then yes many more finally stood up for it. Unfortunately it was too late.
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 13:28:16 GMT -5
Im not misquoting you, you are simply changing what you ment now.
Also you forgot to answer this:
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 13:28:55 GMT -5
Sure every citizen had arms, bullet proof vests etc to defend themselves right? You got to be kidding right? Yugoslavia had the highest weapon ownership rate in Europe. Possible exceptions being Finland and Switzerland. Typical nehaviour of illyria. Some croat says something unflattering try to minimize bby claiming exaggeration or it being taken out of context. Now if Spegelj was a Serb he'd be doing the exact opposite. Lol. The things you say of the 40-s and 50s essentially to apply to all of post-war Europe. Wasn't emigration to the U.S. from Italy, SPain, Portugal, Greece and the rest basically happenning at the same rate as in Yugoslavia.
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Apr 22, 2009 13:44:41 GMT -5
That's where you are wrong I have never ever personally quoted or linked any videos to any political leader here. Here I have only discusses politics and history as it happend. I have only discussed what mess they created and what they need to be accountable for. I don't use a mish mash of quotes or sayings for my benefit.
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 13:45:31 GMT -5
They aqlreadfy had arms. You seem to not be aware of the simple fact that every republic had militias with more arms then the JNA. Where do you think the weaponry the Zenga had came from? The TDFs they were originally. Where did the Serbs get weapons, from the TDFs in Serb areas. And anyways, when the Spegelj tapesx -- released in January of 1991 -- were found out the Croats had started buying weapons from Germans, the Brits and of course excess weapons that all the commie countries wanted to get rid off. Why did this start happening? Why did the Croats all of a sudden rise up in a nationalist way? Nobody just snaps one day in the Summer of 1990 and says these things. Nothing know. Such events happenned earlier. One of the things in the communist era least talked about was how during the Croat Maspok Serb peasants in the Krajina region were fearing a new war and took part in drills to fight if necessary. ^ It was basically the kind of things that happenned in Croatia in 1991 during the summer before massive fighting happenned, villagers were preparing to fight and the ones taking part in provoacations [before the war spread to western Slavonia, I believe the war was referred to by the economist as "The War of the Villages."]. Something which happenned during the Maspok period uin Krajina. Anyways. The war was Chetniks and Ustashas abroad taking advantage of peasants during a tense period. After the Maspok the Bugojno Group (members of the Croat Revolutionary Brother hood, Hrvatsko revolucionarno bratstvo) tried to cause an insurgency in Yugoslavia, they failed. Their were Serb groups doing the same. Captain Dragan before returning to Yugoslavia was involved in the training of a Serb paramilitary in Australia (just like the Bugojno group was essentuially the same think 20 years earlier in Australia). Anyways the difference between earlier in the 90s is that unlike before political changes made it significantly harder to control these groups. Before the changes of the late 80s, i doubt Captain Dragan or soembody like Gojko Susak could have come to Yugoslavia and do the stupid s**t they did. ^ Captain Dragan giving professional military training to peasants organizing road blocks and bringing Australian volunteers with himself. ^Gojko Susak firing rockets at Borovo Selo to provoke conflict. Gojko Susaks actions are directly linked to the Borovo Selo killings which really made s**t hit the fan. It went from a conflict mostly involving civil disobedience (road blocks in Dalmatia with 1 deadly incident, Plitvice Lake for the msot part) into an all out war with a massacre that made all Serbs in Croatia enemies to Croats. ^Personally I believe the war was caused by provocations essentially the result of diaspora members who were once useful to the west in various false flag operations. It just needed 1 major incident for the thing to explord -- Borovo Selo was that thing.
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 13:54:41 GMT -5
That's where you are wrong I have never ever personally quoted or linked any videos to any political leader here. Here I have only discusses politics and history as it happend. I have only discussed what mess they created and what they need to be accountable for. I don't use a mish mash of quotes or sayings for my benefit. Know directly in rweference to Spegelj, you basically said "any opposition would say it" as if your trying to decrease the impact his statemetn would have on Krajina Serbs.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 15:35:57 GMT -5
In all honesty (And my one belief), the only thing I can trace back the fear/hatred Croats/Serbs have towards eachother is on the name Punisa Racic.
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 15:41:06 GMT -5
In all honesty (And my one belief), the only thing I can trace back the fear/hatred Croats/Serbs have towards eachother is on the name Punisa Racic. Austrian favourtism towards Serbs/Vlachs. Figure sin croatia in the 19th century showed hatred towards Serb and I'm not sure of the specifics but their was at least one anti-Serb pogrom in Croatia in the 19th century.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Apr 22, 2009 15:57:15 GMT -5
^ I know of only one figure who was of Ethnic-Croat background, who was in charge of BiH under AHE. That man was Stjepan Sarkotic-Lovcen (Stefan Freiherr Sarkotic von Lovcen). Other than that, in the 19th and early 20th Century Croatian history, they only tried to gain Greater Autonomy, and maybe were striving for Independence eventually (This was crippled by the death of Radic, and later on by the German invasion of Yugoslavia).
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Post by radovic on Apr 22, 2009 16:17:49 GMT -5
^ I know of only one figure who was of Ethnic-Croat background, who was in charge of BiH under AHE. That man was Stjepan Sarkotic-Lovcen (Stefan Freiherr Sarkotic von Lovcen). Other than that, in the 19th and early 20th Century Croatian history, they only tried to gain Greater Autonomy, and maybe were striving for Independence eventually (This was crippled by the death of Radic, and later on by the German invasion of Yugoslavia). I'm referring to Croatia not Bosnia. Figures in the Kingdom of Croatia, i.e. Starcevic, had a hatred towards Serbia there was at least one anti-Serb pogrom in Croatia. I can only guess this would do with Austrian favourtism towards Serbs in Croatia for most of the 19th century.
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 22, 2009 16:21:32 GMT -5
Ante Starèeviæ (23 May 1823 - 28 February 1896)
Some Croatian historians like Mirjana Gross and Ivo Goldstein state that Starèeviæ was a racist and an anti-Semite.[11] [12] According to them, his understanding of basic human rights and civil liberties were extremely primitive and selective. Starèeviæ criticized socialism as "unshaped" and he supported colonialism, claimed that "Algeria should be densely populated by a few million of happy Frenchmen and not to allow to have one hundred fifty thousand of them against two and half million of Arabs".[11][12]
Starèeviæ had based his ideological views on writings of those ancient Greek writers who thought that some people, by their very nature, are slaves, for they had "just half of the human mind" and, for that reason, they "shall be governed by people of the human nature". About the people and nations which he saw as cursed and lower ranked races - he spoke as of the animal breeds and uses the "breed" word to mark them.[11] [12]
Later, Starèeviæ increasingly marked the Slavoserbs as a separate ethnic group or breed, and he ranked them as lower than Jews: "The Jews are less harmful than the Slavoserbs. For the Jews care for themselves and their people ... but the Slavoserbs are always for the evil: if they cannot gain a benefit, then they tend to harm the good or just affair, or to harm those who are for the affair." [11][12] Further, he claimed that "cursed breeds" were "vengeful against their oppressors". He stated that lower races should not be given any role in the public life. [11][12]
As an aged man, he described the Serbs as identical to the Slavoserb breed and mocked them for defeats they suffered long ago. This provoked negative reactions, even in his Party of Rights. Party member Erazmo Barèiæ described Starèeviæ's mockery and racism as "throwing mud at people and primitive cheeky invectives".[12] After facing negative reactions to his views, Starèeviæ temporarily retreated.
He wrote a whole tractate about the Jews that could be summarized in a few sencences: "Jews ... are the breed, except a few, without any morality and without any homeland, the breed of which every unit strives to its personal gain, or to its relatives' gain. To let the Jews to participate in public life is dangerous: throw a piece of mud in a glass of the clearest water - then all the water will be puddled. That way the Jews spoiled and poisoned the French people too much". [11] [12]
But, for Starèeviæ, there was a race worst than the Jews. For him, the "Slavoserb" notion was firstly of a political nature: the "Slavoserbs" are his political opponents who "sold themselves to a foreign rule". Then all those who favorably look on the South Slavs unity not regarding them (the South Slavs) as the Croats.
However, when once facing with negative reactions to his open racism, he temporarily retreated. That was a reason that he wrote an article in Sloboda, issue of 23 March 1883: The main thing is this: everybody should work for the people and the homeland, and let them call themselves as they wish... We have disputes and dissensions only because they are supported and strengthened from the outside... We believe that hungry and cold Serbs and Croats feel the same... Therefore, everybody can assume the name of Hottentots, every person can choose their own name, as long as we are all free and happy!...
The issue of Starèeviæ's racism was further fully elaborated by Ivo Pilar [under pseudonym L. von Südland][13] That very book was translated into Croatian language in the year of 1943 - by Paveliæ's regime - as one of the tenets of his Ustaše and his Independent State of Croatia.[14] [15] The topicality of this racist work is seen from the fact that it was reprinted in 1990.[clarification needed] In the preface to this edition, Dr. Vladimir Veselica, a Zagreb University professor, expresses his enthusiasm that the author had given "relevant answers" at the highest intellectual level. What thrilled him so was the consistently expressed racist hatred against the Serbs. It is sufficient to submit one quotation that explains the sense and content of this book, which far outdoes the current demonization of the Serbs: " it was not without reason that I tried to show how the Serbs today are dangerous for their ideas and their racial composition, how a bent for conspiracies, revolutions and coups is in their blood.
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