libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 6:14:53 GMT -5
but my point is that nobody knows or came back to give eyewitness account of an " afterlife " how do you know there is a god for that matter? its called faith...you either have it or you don't, if you had proof there is a god then there'd be no non-believers
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 6:22:23 GMT -5
im pretty familiar w/ the concept of faith...i had a lot of it in my younger years
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 6:34:36 GMT -5
i had a lot of it in my younger years i don't think you can quantify faith, what do you reckon?
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 6:40:00 GMT -5
of course you can....you can have a tremendous amount like my mom does...or you can have a questionable amount like i do...
so it is possible to have varying degrees of faith...
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 6:54:47 GMT -5
But you’re missing the point…faith can not be scalable, it’s a duality, either you believe in god or you don’t, it’s a tricky notion, but you can’t believe 30% in smth…point being, you either believe or not, then it becomes a question of how much indoctrinated you are, you are playing with varying degrees of devotion/fanaticism/extremism, depending on where one positions himself
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 7:15:58 GMT -5
actually its the opposite..
its either you believe in God or not...then it depends on how much " faith " you have in him...
Thats the way i understand it...but I guess it depends how each person defines " faith "
Faith to me is not a belief...its the way a person measures his belief in something that is invisible
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Post by yahadj on Jun 26, 2008 7:57:50 GMT -5
Well I don't know how you came to realize that, but I do belive that there will be heaven and hell. Actually their existence is interdependant. May be they would be slightly different than we portray in our heads but they will be our final destination. Since we were created from nothing our eternal existance is based on the balance of opposites. Allah SWT is promising us to maintain it forever. If there would be a Paradise then there would be a Hell.
Those two are a must in order to validate the concept of Justice. And Justice is one of the promises of Allah SWT. Those who located at the two distant ends of spectrum of good and evil will get strait to their destination. Those who are close to the middle may hope for the Mercy of Allah SWT.
Even the realization of fact that there was God and he created the whole universe would be enough punishment for many humans. Imagine the eternal feeling of regret for loosing the opportunity to achieve a honorable place in Afterlife because of living a blind and arrogant life on Earth.
May Allah SWT open the hearts and minds of as many people as possible to the Ultimate Truth and lead them to Salvation.
PEACE
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 8:00:03 GMT -5
that's a good point....however there is a very line, open to interpretation i guess, i regard faith and belief as synonyms of each other
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 8:08:08 GMT -5
Yahac...
If we are to do good things in this world because we want to avoid " hell " then that is just as bad as the one that doesnt believe in anything. The reason being that you use fear as catalyst. You say...it would be a shame if you miss out on paradise by living a blind and arrogant life, but you dont do it out of the love for God...you do it to avoid " hell ". And what about the many other types of religions that dont believe in a Judeo-Chris-Islamic faith ? Are they doomed as well ? What about those amazonian tribes in Brazil ? They are probably closer to " GOD " than you or I will ever be...
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 8:11:19 GMT -5
libo..
Agreed...They both go hand in hand...
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Post by yahadj on Jun 26, 2008 8:16:07 GMT -5
Logic and faith are two important things we rely during our life. Those two many times co-interact to found a sound reasoning. Faith is like trust. You belive something to be true based on certain arguments and then you start believing in its validity. Many times you prove to be wrong and many times to be true.
I believe that the love of my parents to me is real. Based on what? Because they did so many good things to me. And their love is so important in my life.
I do believe in the love of the Creator. Because of the blessings He bestowed upon us. The chance of existence is the highest blessing a Creation can get. Out of millions of sperms one is to be chosen to live forever! We are faced with blessings since the begining till the end. The things we take for granted are all blessings of Allah SWT if we only can see it! Then why I should not believe and love the source of all these blessings? Is there more natural thing to do? Why is so hard to express gratefulness toward the source of our existance? Actually is not as hard as many would think. It is simple act once you sincerely want to face the Truth.
Love causes faith and more faith causes more love. If that is not the case for somebody, there must be something wrong with his assumptions...
PEACE
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 8:18:43 GMT -5
Dont muslims believe that a person is already destined to heaven or hell upon birth ?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 8:32:39 GMT -5
the notion of heaven and hell is as old as history itself, the concepts of good vs evil, day vs night are the foundation of every religion, they are notions stemming from the innate fear of unknown, judaism-christianity-islam are subsets of the faith abraham, all thre can be traced back to one point of singularity which is him, i do not disntinguish between the three, i do not regard all these 3 major religions different to what the egyptians, greeks, hindus or mayas used to worship, after all judao-christian-islamic trinity share most universal concepts with pagan beliefs/rituals, immaculate conception, miracle performing, sacrifice, resurrection, divinity, today's religions are just a continuation of ancient beliefs, most likely the most plaegerised is the egyptian religeous scripture
i rather have a more gnostic approach to religion than the institutionalised mythology of judaism, christianity and islam.
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Post by yahadj on Jun 26, 2008 8:36:18 GMT -5
Yahac... If we are to do good things in this world because we want to avoid " hell " then that is just as bad as the one that doesnt believe in anything. The reason being that you use fear as catalyst. You say...it would be a shame if you miss out on paradise by living a blind and arrogant life, but you dont do it out of the love for God...you do it to avoid " hell ". And what about the many other types of religions that dont believe in a Judeo-Chris-Islamic faith ? Are they doomed as well ? What about those amazonian tribes in Brazil ? They are probably closer to " GOD " than you or I will ever be... The shame would be to find yourself in a useless position. Like you have wasted your own potential for meaningless things. And now as you witness the glory of the Almighty you will regret it deeply just for the sake of self deceit that you insisted on for no reason. And now it is too late to reverse the course. I can't imagine the pain of that disgrace and shame. If there is Hell and Paradise in reality and Allah SWT is Merciful on his creations would you expect him to hide truth from them? Almighty has tried to warn us about the Afterlife so many times. And yet time each time we go astray and disbelief. But I got your point in which I agree. Those who only believe because of their fear of Hell are not high degree believers. There degrees of faith. And that is based on the level of our understanding regarding the concepts of religion. Those who believe and worship Allah SWT only because they are greatful to him for the opportunity of eternal existence I believe would get higher degrees than those who only fear. We all have our own place in the spectrum of diversity. We all were given different capasities and we will earn different degrees. Niothing hold us back from earning higher degrees. Believing with better understanding and doing good deeds is in our hands. Yet even those who believe because of fear of Hell and do many good deeds will be rewarded accordingly, too. Fear might be first step in belief for many. But many would take it further and make more sense out of it. It is in your hands... PEACE
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 8:39:47 GMT -5
Exactly, I pretty much beileve the same...Thats why countries in the middle east NEED to progress in the future wiping out this disgusting wahhabism that is circumsisng girls, amputating theives and stoning adulters..
If there is a hell...all those extremists are destined to it...
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 26, 2008 8:46:25 GMT -5
my friend yahac...Bill Gates is a multi-billionaire donating millions to philanthropy. He is pretty much an atheist. If Bill Gates is to die next to a wealthy Muslim Saudi king ( that goes to mosque every friday ) but did not donate a dime to the poor, and left it to his tribe or whatever....who would be invited to heaven when they die ?
The atheist ? or the muslim ?
My point being....ppl's actions speak louder than words. I am sure if there is a creator...he will take these things into account. Not because someone goes to church or mosque and says he believes or prays. But because of the actions he does around him..
I used to believe just like you...it be nice to get that back one day.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jun 26, 2008 9:01:17 GMT -5
i wouldn't like to live in a world devoid of faith though, it would be a stark and gloomy existence, if i had the option to find out whether there is someone up there pulling the strings or not i would opt not to know, i just don't like the entrapment of faith but placing labels of religions on it
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Post by yahadj on Jun 26, 2008 9:02:51 GMT -5
Dont muslims believe that a person is already destined to heaven or hell upon birth ? Not exactly. You earn your destiny with your own deeds. If you have good intention and you are determined to uncover the truth of our existence the chance you will be granted a higher understanding and guidance to the right path of Alah is higher. It is only Allah SWT that opens our eyes and hearts to the Truth. Our initiative increases our chance of acquiring this blessing. Allah SWT creates us with certain capacity and he gives us intellect and free will. Allah SWT predetermines the course of Creation- all of the stages it will go through. Similar to the life of any living being. You are born you go through certain stages, you mature and then die. The same for the Universe. It is born it expands and then ends. The same for humanity and any living species. In each stage the percentages of believers and disbelievers are preset. But Allah SWT lets people choose where to belong based on their intellect and free will. Not everybody will believe. Only a predetermined number. Our life is like a race against the time for those limited spots. My guess is that throughout the all humandkind history close to 30-40% will really believe , about the same number will disbelief and the rest would be in the middle-undecided (agnostcs). And we are told that as we approach the end of times the percentage of real believers will decrease. As we already witness. Nowdays there are less believers than say 200-300 years ago. It is more difficult to believe nowdays. More distraction, more megalomania, arrogancy and more self deceit... Thus more competition for the limited spots. Like say there is only 200 spots per semester in a certain school and that number decreases each year by 1 or 2. Thus it gets harder to be admitted to that place. Those who are worthy and try real hard may get admitted. But those who are not worthy and don't even apply, of course will be left out. Nowdays many don't even try to think on those issues. How would they get to believe? PEACE
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Post by yahadj on Jun 26, 2008 9:20:05 GMT -5
my friend yahac...Bill Gates is a multi-billionaire donating millions to philanthropy. He is pretty much an atheist. If Bill Gates is to die next to a wealthy Muslim Saudi king ( that goes to mosque every friday ) but did not donate a dime to the poor, and left it to his tribe or whatever....who would be invited to heaven when they die ? The atheist ? or the muslim ? My friend, it is not amount you donate. It is the capacity you have and how much you spent of it for the sake of Allah. The donations of Bill Gates are good thing, but I am not sure about his faith. You said he is atheist. I don't know about that. People say somethings but do the opposite. Only Allah knows what is inside them. The labels are worthless. I don't even know what the Saudi king does and will do. I don't know how much charity he has done. Is he a real beliver? I don't know. Does he like to reveal his charities to public? I don't know. But we know that Bill does that. Is it for show off (an advertisement for more sales?) or sincere charity? How can I know? And do I really need to know that? Not really. Whatever somebody does does it for himself/herself. You earn your destiny. If you are sincere then no fears. Because Allah SWT knows what is inside you. And also does the saudi king represent Muslims? No way. Islam doesn't have cleargy or any mediatior between Allah and the believer. Everybody represents himself in his deeds. Why? Because after all, everybody would be accountable for himself. Allah knows what is inside of our minds and hearts and he is Just. Charities for show off are worthless. But those who do it just for the sake of Allah in brotherly solidarity and also do it secretly is way better. If you don't appreciate your Creator you pretty much don't know why you are here on Earth. The good deeds you do if you are sincere will deffinately take you to a higher degree than other disbelievers but if you are not aiming the proximity to Allah SWT simply you won't get there. You will be somewhere far among disbelievers but may be better than those who never do charity. But if a poor man donates a portion of his income to his neighbor in need, even though not significant amount compared to Bill Gates he may be rewarded higher than him simply because he does it out of his heart for the sake of the humane love that Allah SWT bestowen in his believing heart. I agree. That is why in Islam believing only is not enough. Allah SWT always tells us in Qur'an that those who belive AND DO GOOD DEEDS will be rewarded. As you see there is no OR there. Both faith and good deeds are required. As you need two wings to fly you need to believe in Allah and do as much as good deeds as possible during your life. Don't give up bro. Keep your mind and heart open to the Love of Almighty God. For there is no meaning in this life without faith... PEACE PEACE
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Post by kasso on Jun 26, 2008 10:13:42 GMT -5
>they were forced to...undenieable...that's one of the reason many left to Italy; avoid islamic >conversions... Bingo, half our population went to Italy at the time. Almost half of the population, about 30-40 per cent.
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