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Post by terroreign on Feb 3, 2008 2:15:57 GMT -5
So anyways back to the subject, why are greeks so jealous and furious at the Macedonians? Do they need a more celebrated history that bad?
Please Explain
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Demonel
Amicus
I am Jack's regained insanity.
Posts: 833
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Post by Demonel on Feb 3, 2008 8:39:33 GMT -5
100% Kralj Serbljem se javlja tek nakon sto su Tvrtko i Lazar podjelili zajednicki osvojene djelove Srbije prije toga ga nije bilo jer nije vladao djelovima teritorije gdje su zivjeli Srbi, njegov nasljednik je dodao na Kralj Serbljem i Hrvatem kada je osvojio veci dio Dalmacije koji ranije nije bio u sastavu Bosne, taj dio nije dugo zadrza pa nije dugo zadrzao ni Hrvatem.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 3, 2008 12:18:16 GMT -5
100% Kralj Serbljem se javlja tek nakon sto su Tvrtko i Lazar podjelili zajednicki osvojene djelove Srbije prije toga ga nije bilo jer nije vladao djelovima teritorije gdje su zivjeli Srbi, njegov nasljednik je dodao na Kralj Serbljem i Hrvatem kada je osvojio veci dio Dalmacije koji ranije nije bio u sastavu Bosne, taj dio nije dugo zadrza pa nije dugo zadrzao ni Hrvatem. Vostani Serbije Latin Vostani Serbije! Vostani carice! I daj èedom tvojim videt tvoje lice. Obrati serca ih i oèesa na se, I daj njima èuti slatke tvoje glase. Vostani Serbije! Davno si zaspala, U mraku ležala. Sada se probudi I Serblje vozbudi! Ti vozdigni tvoju carsku glavu gore, Da te opet pozna i zemlja i more. Pokaži Evropi tvoje krasno lice, Svetlo i veselo, kako vid Danice. Vostani Serbije! Davno si zaspala, U mraku ležala. Sada se probudi I Serblje vozbudi! Tebi sad pomaže i nebesna volja I sad ti se pokazuje i sudbina bolja. Svi bližnji tvoji tebi dobra žele I daljni se narodi tvom dobru vesele. Vostani Serbije! Davno si zaspala, U mraku ležala. Sada se probudi I Serblje vozbudi! Literal English translation Arise, Serbia, arise, empress, and let your children see your face. Let them turn their hearts and eyes to you, and let them hear your sweet voice. (Refrain) Arise, Serbia! You fell asleep a long time ago, And have lain in the dark. Now wake up And rouse the Serbs!Raise high your imperial head, So that land and sea may know you again. Show Europe your beautiful face, As bright and cheerful as that of the morning star. (Refrain) Heavenly Providence now comes to your aid, A better destiny is being revealed to you. All your neighbours wish you well, Nations from afar rejoice at your success
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 3, 2008 13:05:42 GMT -5
So anyways back to the subject, why are greeks so jealous and furious at the Macedonians? Do they need a more celebrated history that bad? Please Explain Rather easy to explain the greek side. 1) On one side there are ancient Macedonians whose homeland was in what is now Aegean Macedonia (only 10% of it was in todays Vardar Macedonia), whose language was Hellenic, whose religion was Hellenic and who spread Hellenism across the known world. Such were the ancient Macedonians the original Macedonians. 2) The new so called slavophone 'Macedonians' are in a region that was historically a Hellenic (language, culture and religion) Peonia, speak a language that is linguistically speaking a dialect of Bulgarian but politically refereed to by some as 'Macedonian' and population that was either referred to in the past as Bulgar or referred to itself as simply Slav (Serbian anthropologist Cvijic). 3) There is a Greek province of Macedonia which is in a same territory as ancient Macedonia, where there is more people who self identify as Macedonian then in 'R.M.'. Further more these people self identify as also being Greek (as did ancient Macedonians), carry Greek names and speak Greek language. As under no circumstance does in this case 1=2 and therefore greek position is that 2 here can never be called with a same historical name that in no way relates to number 2 here. Further more only number 3 shows any continuation with ancient Macedonia (location, Greek language and Greek ethnicity are the same). Therefore it is only Aegean Macedonia that logically hold the exclusive right to be called under the name of Macedonia (unless number 2 becomes culturally and linguistically Hellenized and then can be added). I believe such is the argument.
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Demonel
Amicus
I am Jack's regained insanity.
Posts: 833
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Post by Demonel on Feb 3, 2008 13:42:24 GMT -5
Ja, i? Poenta?
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 3, 2008 13:57:36 GMT -5
Pa izvuci je sam. Ja sam ti pomogao sa time sto sam ti oznacio kljucne reci.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Feb 3, 2008 15:09:02 GMT -5
I agree with Ioan here. Fyromians grand parents wre known as Komitadji. A uniformed army that was showered with gifts by Russia to spread her pan-slavism and in turn pillaged, raped & murdered, the villagers of Macedonia that had a Hellenic conscience. They tried to eradicate every inch of hellenic consciences in the area and this was well reported by all foreigtn consuls in Macedonia between 1903 to 1908. It was a uniformed pan-slav army versus a bunch of unarmed villagers. That's why we call them BULGARIAN. Because it's what they are. I agree they are Bulgarian and they always were. However I think ALL Bolkan people did enough harm to each other after the fall of the Ottoman empire.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 3, 2008 21:19:14 GMT -5
"Yes, albanians in the west and Bulgarians in the whole of Macaronia. Very mixed!"
You forgot to add serbs as well within the slav component.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Feb 4, 2008 0:47:17 GMT -5
You forgot to add serbs as well within the slav component. The serbs were never much in fyrom (maybe at best 100000 northwest). All the others were pure Bulgarians. Maybe u should look at places were Serbs really do live, like Montenegro and Bosnia.
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Post by Kassandros on Feb 4, 2008 1:39:39 GMT -5
"Rather easy to explain the greek side.
1) On one side there are ancient Macedonians whose homeland was in what is now Aegean Macedonia (only 10% of it was in todays Vardar Macedonia), whose language was Hellenic, whose religion was Hellenic and who spread Hellenism across the known world. Such were the ancient Macedonians the original Macedonians.
2) The new so called slavophone 'Macedonians' are in a region that was historically a Hellenic (language, culture and religion) Peonia, speak a language that is linguistically speaking a dialect of Bulgarian but politically refereed to by some as 'Macedonian' and population that was either referred to in the past as Bulgar or referred to itself as simply Slav (Serbian anthropologist Cvijic).
3) There is a Greek province of Macedonia which is in a same territory as ancient Macedonia, where there is more people who self identify as Macedonian then in 'R.M.'. Further more these people self identify as also being Greek (as did ancient Macedonians), carry Greek names and speak Greek language.
As under no circumstance does in this case 1=2 and therefore greek position is that 2 here can never be called with a same historical name that in no way relates to number 2 here. Further more only number 3 shows any continuation with ancient Macedonia (location, Greek language and Greek ethnicity are the same). Therefore it is only Aegean Macedonia that logically hold the exclusive right to be called under the name of Macedonia (unless number 2 becomes culturally and linguistically Hellenized and then can be added).
I believe such is the argument." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Exactly. Couldnt say it better.
Terroreign thats the explanation. Satisfied?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 4, 2008 17:24:06 GMT -5
Okay now that's what I'm talking about AAdmin! Now evidence please
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 5, 2008 0:40:18 GMT -5
^ extremely simple question:
Why is both greek and macedonian the same lanuages but vardarian slav is completely different.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 0:59:37 GMT -5
Now evidence which slav macedonians claim is that the Ancient Macedonian language was slavic and not written, while greek was used as a trading language.
There is a quote speaking of Alexander speaking "macedonian" to his troops
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 5, 2008 2:08:32 GMT -5
Now evidence which slav macedonians claim is that the Ancient Macedonian language was slavic and not written, while greek was used as a trading language. There is a quote speaking of Alexander speaking "macedonian" to his troops Davaj taj citat.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 5, 2008 9:25:07 GMT -5
Makedonisti was a local (Homeric like) ancient Greek dialect that was spoken by Macedonians and which might have been pretty different from spoken Athenian dialect of the time but both are Greek nonetheless. Only remains regarding the ancient Macedonia are in Greek (no remains of a non-Hellenic Macedonian language thus Greek culture), Philip was seeking Greek unification and to revenge against Persia in the name of Hellenism (achieved by his son Alexander who again spread Hellenism).
In fact there is no evidence that ancient Macedonians were not Greek granted there is no non-Greek language, no non-Greek religion and no non-Greek culture. With that said the name is purely Greek (Makednos = Highlander) and only Greek. Calling someone Barbarian by Athenians does not automatically means non-Greek as Athenians have called Spartans as such at times and only a lunatic (consider Thermopile alone not to mention their Dorian origins thus blood kinship shared with Macedonians) will claim Spartans as non-Greek. Thus barbarian in such examples means the second meaning of the word which is uncultured in comparison to cultured Athenians (Sparta was a strict machinelike military society, Macedonia was a Homeric like Hellenic Kingdom while Athens was far more free spirited and cradle of western democracy).
There is no logical grounds that anyone but Greeks (again consider number 2 I posted, and all three points above are common knowledge, meaning if you are unaware of anyone of them you have no business arguing Macedonian issue here) can be connected to the sacred Hellenic heritage that were Macedonians.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Feb 5, 2008 9:37:48 GMT -5
I deleted several early reply to GS as he decided that for me by deleting his own replies after exiting the forums (was that the 2nd time?).
Thus the issue of the thread are
-Bulgarian origins of the so called (slavophone) 'Macedonians' -and Greek origins of the original hellenic Macedonians.
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 5, 2008 16:52:23 GMT -5
^ That's right Aadmin twice here and twice over the other side now ! linkScroll bellow that page for your convenience. Really don't understand some people at times. Hope he finds ever lasting happiness one day ?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 20:17:36 GMT -5
Well, AAdmin, what do you think about this
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 5, 2008 21:46:12 GMT -5
Well, AAdmin, what do you think about this That guy just said that Greeks are not Macedonians but he did not prove it. Not a single proof except his "theory". You mentioned some quote speaking of Alexander speaking "macedonian" to his troops . Where is it?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 22:48:04 GMT -5
"he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).
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