ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 24, 2008 15:20:54 GMT -5
But please, continue "advising" me on this Bulgarian issue. It's good comedy. ;D ;D If u want real comedy, just check the Macedonian "historic" books. Everyone, but fyroms, knows you are Bulgarians.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 24, 2008 15:28:17 GMT -5
Oh, yeah. That's a good one. You are so knowledgeable on the Bulgarian view of the Slavic Macedonians. Yeah I am. By the way if you read unbiased historic book you ll find out that all "your" national heroes have declared and considered themselves as Bulgarians, that includes Samuel, his son, his niece, Goze Delchev etc. The list goes on. So in that respect I m surprised you are surprised Bulgarians think u are Bulgarian.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 24, 2008 15:43:13 GMT -5
First, u didnt answer my question. Why those "Macedonians" didnt have any idea they were "Macedonians" and thought of themselves as Bulgarians? Maybe, just maybe, cause at the time there was no such nation? It's funny. I do not believe that they (the Bulgarians) are anything other than Bulgarians. So u agree Samuel, Ioan Radomir, Goze Delchev were Bulgarians? Then who are the heroes of FYROM? Actually I think u are. Now you are. But your grandparents werent. I agree that now you are this new nation, whose history could make Anderson envious. Your history is based on falsifications. No, we arent. Actually we were one people 50 years ago.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 25, 2008 16:18:11 GMT -5
I have a friend in Bulgaria. She is a family friend through my wife. Her name is Jivka. I am in conflict now because she has no issue with Macedonians and believes they have a right to exist. I also believe u have the right to exist. I also dont have issues with fyroms. However I am against your historic claims and against the falsification of the Bulgarian history. I mean how can u deny that Mac "heroes" were Bulgarians if they left in writing their thoughts that they were Bulgarians? Who can oppose that? Now u are fyroms of course, new nation of course and u of course have the right to be whoever u want to be. However u just have to read unbias historic sourses and u ll find that in the words of the fyrims u used to be Bulgarians. Now u are not. Lots of Bulgarian think that by acting this way u ll feel close to Bulgaria naturally and u ll undersand one day we were one people devided for political reasons. I have such friends. As i dsay they pretend or act like u are something different but everyone think u are Bulgarians forced to hate us or at least to dislike us. Just look in Pirin Macedonia. The people u think are Macedonians actually are the biggest Bulgarians.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 28, 2008 15:05:19 GMT -5
It is clear that the whole 'name issue' is due to the Greeks' jealousy that they do not get to have Alexander the Great as their own hero...
The Pride of the Greeks is their downfall...
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 28, 2008 15:17:18 GMT -5
It is clear that the whole 'name issue' is due to the Greeks' jealousy that they do not get to have Alexander the Great as their own hero... The Pride of the Greeks is their downfall... Actually the whole issue is due to the tito politic to make those people anything but bulgarians, which they were from time immemorial. but now they arent of course. now they try to be a greek ancient tribe.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 28, 2008 15:54:37 GMT -5
The problem with that theory is that there is no evidence Tito did anything to them, or forced them to do anything
And not only no evidence to say the whole population was bulgarian, but the fact that you said yourself that bulgarians arent a pure race, they have mysterious origins and pretty much a mix of many things
That being said the people could say they arent bulgarian, and be technically correct, because bulgarians are so mixed, and ect...
Then we get into the greek issue, where they believe the Macedonians were a greek tribe, this cannot even be claimed or backed up since the fact that there is no evidence!!
Greek did not even exist as an ethnicity in Ancient macedonia's time...
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 28, 2008 16:16:50 GMT -5
The problem with that theory is that there is no evidence Tito did anything to them, or forced them to do anything There are. Lots of evidences, for example of those that had to create the fyrom alphabeth and "language". what? u mean all the writers, the scientists, the historiographers were wrong? all said the fyroms were bulgarians. how could they all be wrong? how could goze delchev, deme gruev, ioan radomir say they were bulgarians and the fyroms nowadays say they werent? But who has pure race on the bolkans? no one. we are mix of thracians, slavs and bulgars: the forming of the Bulgarian nation ended long time ago: late 9 century and fyrom people were part of this nation. we had the same state, the same language, the same tradition, the same songs, the same believes, the same religion. we were always one. thats what the fyroms thought back then and its well documented. It would be a lie, because Bulgarian are unique, though we are very similar to our neighbours. As i said the same language, the same tradition, the same songs, the same believes, the same religion makes us one people and it was always the case up till tito. I dont agree. Alex left in Greek writing, spread Greek culture, worshipped Greek gods. All points out that the Macedonians were Greek tribe, even though they may have spoken some kind of dialect to the Athenian Greek (thats why there are references to macedonisti). But it was the same for Sparta. As for Greek ethnicity: I only know that back then there was a feeling for belonging back then to the Greek civi;lization. They identified themselves as Greeks, there were Greeks and others, so I think they actually were some kind of ethnicity.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 28, 2008 16:39:43 GMT -5
Why such a difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages?
I (Blg) = Az I (Mac) = Jas
And besides that Bulgarians pronounce the letter "a" differently...
Just pointing out facts for you
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 28, 2008 23:35:48 GMT -5
English: "water"
Greek: "nero"
FYROM: "voda"
Bulgarian: "voda"
===============
English: "pain"
Greek: "ponos"
FYROM: "bolka"
Bulgarian: "bolka"
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English: "peace"
Greek: "irini"
FYROM: "mir"
Bulgarian: "mir"
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English: "boy"
Greek: "agori"
FYROM: "momche"
Bulgarian: "momche"
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English: "girl"
Greek: "koritsi"
FYROM: "moma" . "devoika"
Bulgarian: "moma" . "devoika"
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English: "late"
Greek: "arga"
FYROM: "bavno"
Bulgarian: "bavno"
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English: "chicken"
Greek: "kota"
FYROM: "kokoska"
Bulgarian: "kokoska"
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English: "night"
Greek: "vradi"
FYROM: "vecher"
Bulgarian: "vecher"
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English: "day"
Greek: "mera"
FYROM: "den"
Bulgarian: "den"
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English: "eye"
Greek: "mati"
FYROM: "oko"
Bulgarian: "oko"
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English: "sea"
Greek: "thalassa"
FYROM: "more"
Bulgarain: "more"
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There is so much more to prove that the Bulgarian language is so close to FYROM's language one would think they are one !. That's all I could find, I'm sure there is many more.
The Macedonians spoke and wrote Greek I'm afraid.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 29, 2008 1:10:58 GMT -5
Why such a difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages? SUCH? Haha! Obviously u dont know what u are talkinig about. At best the difference is as dialect and language! U wanna know why? When they were deciding on which talk (there are dialects in Bulgaria!) Bulgarian language would be based AFTER the liberation they decided Eastern one: to make us more close to the Russian, cause its more soft and its the closest to russian. When they created Macos "language" they based it on Skopian talk which was the closest to Serbian (yet its much more close to Bulgarian). Skopian talk was talked in the northwest of fyrom. In Burgas (southeast Bulgaria) instead of Az the old people say "Ja". Does that mean they are Russian? Its dialect!. Dont forget that for over 100 years fyrom are NOT under our influence but under the serbs and yet the language according to all linguists is JUST dialect! In the will to differenitiate fyrom lang from Bulgarian they tried to even use English words like creation for "kreazia". You arguments doesnt prove anything. There are some small changes (as they are in the other Bulgarian dialects), I told u the political reasons, the lack of any influence and of course a language is always evolving! Next the grammer is identical and the lexic is almost identical, with very small differences, just like the dialects. Didnt know that! All I know is when a fyrom minister is visiting bg on the news they dont translate what he says and I can understand everything and any bulgarian can.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 29, 2008 13:04:29 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the name of the language is 'Macedonian', and the entire world recognizes this
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Post by radovic on Jan 29, 2008 16:49:47 GMT -5
Why such a difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages? I (Blg) = Az I (Mac) = Jas And besides that Bulgarians pronounce the letter "a" differently... Just pointing out facts for you Absurd reason to claim different languages. I guess Americans do not speak english by your logic since they pronounce Z zee and in England it's pronounced Zed.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 29, 2008 17:09:52 GMT -5
Never heard of a language called "FYROM". You make this s.hit up as you go? I didn't call it a FYROM language, take the time to read btw the lines. I wrote FYROM's language. As per U.N is known as FYROM. The true Macedonians were and are proud of their Hellenic campaigns, The spread of Greek language and Greek culture.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 29, 2008 20:30:08 GMT -5
"Novi - do you have a problem saying Macedonian?"
Yes l do because they are not Macedonians (Slav Vardarians), only Greeks can be called Macedonians because they are a Hellenic people.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 29, 2008 20:49:41 GMT -5
"It is clear that the whole 'name issue' is due to the Greeks' jealousy that they do not get to have Alexander the Great as their own hero..."
How dare you, if you really are a montenegrin, to say such a thing....your killing me. Your a buffoon and its scaring me that if l find more montenegrin kinds like you, i'm going to start denouncing my mothers montenegrin ancestry.....what a disgrace.
"The Pride of the Greeks is their downfall..."
Montenegrins are absoluety nothing to the Greeks, if u compare history and civilisations. People like Vasos Mavrovouniotis are great men and makes me proud having some montenegrin ancestry but people like u want me to denounce it.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 29, 2008 23:03:14 GMT -5
As I said before, this issue is only because of Alexander the Great...
There is just as much evidence to suggest that Macedonians were a tracian tribe just as they are hellenic
Now if the Slavic Macedonians called themselves Thracians and named there country Thracia would there be a problem? No...
You dissapoint me Novi that you are this biased....
Please denounce, I'd rather you not have any ethnic relationship with me...
Ignoring the numerous amount of spelling mistakes, you are still an idiot...
Present day greeks cannot take credit for what the ancient greeks accomplished, considering that today's greeks are more or less part turkish, and several 100 years ago called themselves "Romanoi" not Hellens
There is much evidence to suggest that today's greeks are nothing more than Romans who speak the Greek language.
Not saying that todays greeks are not greek, but their history within the past 1000 years in reality is not as honorable and legendary compared to the Montenegrins.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 30, 2008 0:28:41 GMT -5
There is just as much evidence to suggest that Macedonians were a tracian tribe just as they are hellenic No there isnt. There were clearly difference between the Thracians and the Greeks. The thracians spoke totally different language and tnx to Greek sources we know some words. Is it the same with the Macos? Deffinately no. All that was left was Greek. Alex felt Greek, he was connected to Greece. That was never the case with the Thracians. They were always "the Others". There would be problem because the Thracians were the most numerous people (according to the Greeks) and they lived on the teritory of Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova also. Id the dacians that were the ansestors of the Romanians were Thracians (as say most), we have at least 3 other countries who can claim to be called Thracia: Romania (they believe they are direct desedants of the Dacians), Moldova(they are Romanians) and Bulgaria (though we are PARTY ansestors of the Thracians because the Slav element was very very strong, we also are ansestors of the Bulgars). As for FYROM, they could be called Peonia, because it was that tribe who really lived on their teritory. They were the Peonians, most probably a Thracian tribe, then there came the Slavs and then the Bulgars of Kuber. Thats why they are coming from the same people as the Bulgarians.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2008 1:43:50 GMT -5
Anthropology and genetics have conclusively proven that todays Greeks are descended from ancient Greeks as are many other populations at least partly (south Italy, many Balkan regions, certain Black Sea regions and sections of Anatolia). Greeks were numerious in the ancient times and lived in cities versus more primitive Barbarians in much of Europe who were dwelling in countryside in comparison. Eastern Roman Empire remained Greek in language throughout its history which proves that it was never latinized linguistically thus even though Roman name was adapted by locals and kept later on the locals remained of greek origin nonetheless. As various barbarians were taking Byzantine lands many Hellenophone Romans were later turning into other nationalities with time to have their language lost after the assimilation (even Montenegro's ancestor state Zeta contained Hellenophones within it that were later either killed or slavized linguistically after Rascians took over Zeta less then a 1000 years ago). Constantinople remained a cultural and economical superpower of pre-ottoman Europe and became greatly weakened after the accursed Crusades that done irreversible damage and plunder of the wealth that was Constantinople that became complete with the flight of the Byzantine intelligentsia (mainly towards north Italy) after the fall of Constantinople (which was a main fuel for the soon to follow Renaissance that started in north Italy after ancient Greek works were reintroduced there). After the Ottomans all the conquered subjects went into a cultural stagnation (even Arabs who until that time were experiencing Golden Age of Islam that was interrupted by the people whose main aim was rule and not civilizational advancement that Arabs were seeking before that). Montenegrins had some small pockets of mountainous rural desolate land with villages contained in it called cities (Cetinje being biggest one) that true were almost never conquered by Ottomans (except very brief periods on several occasions) but so did many sections of Greece (Crete, Mani and many mountain regions in continental western Greece etc) so I fail to see how there is any differences from that angle (it only appears different because Montenegro was spread from these regions and centered around Cetinje while Greece's main centers like Athens stayed under Ottoman rule). The reality was that old Montenegro was left mainly to their own devices through much of Ottoman period as only on few occasions were there any major incursion attempt to enter it (some heroic battles were fought and apart from that Montenegro isn't known for much of anything else excluding perhaps Njegos and several other things). Greeks fought many heroic battles against Ottomans and for their independence and attained it at the end fully at roughly the same time when Montenegro was liberated fully. Some Montenegrins were wholeheartedly involved into this Greek war of liberation such as one mentioned by Novi. Vasos Mavrovouniotis From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
Vasos Mavrovouniotis (Greek: Βασος Μαυροβουνιωτης, literally translated "Vaso Montenegrin"; born Vaso Brajović; 1790-1847) was a soldier from Montenegro, who played a significant role in the Greek revolution against the Ottoman Empire in 1821. His ethnicity is Serb[1].
He was born in Bjelopavlići in modern day Montenegro, 1790. Since his early youth he joined the Montenegrin and other rebel forces and regularly commanded raids across the Balkans. In 1821 he directed a force of 120 men of mixed Serbian, Montenegrin and Greek nationality and joined the early stages of the Greek revolution. His first stop was in central Greece where he met with Nikos Kriezotis, an old time Greek fellow warrior with whom he was a “Vlami”, meaning spiritual brother. This term comes from the ages-old practice in the Balkans where people could become like brothers by performing a specific ritual. In 1822 he participated in the fight against the Turks in Athens where he showed bravery and was widely accepted as one of the best fighters of its period.
In 1824 a Greek civil war erupted and Mavrovouniotis joined forces with the government mainly composed by Greeks he knew since the early stages of the revolution. For his commitment to the side that finally won the domestic conflict he was assigned the rank of the General and was given a force of 1,500men; a considerable army at that period. In the period between 1826-27 he was one of the few guerilla fighters not to be defeated by the Egyptian forces led by Imbrahim Pasha, that nearly destroyed the Greek forces. In the newly established Greek state in 1830’s he became a member of the elite that surrounded the first Greek King Otto from Bavaria. He died on 9 June 1847[2]
Mavrovouniotis married Helena Pangalou from a very well known Greek family in 1826, and she followed him throughout the harsh campaigns in the Greek mountains against the Turks. She died in 1891 and they had a son called Timotheos Vassos-Mavrovounitis. He also became a general and was decorated in numerous occasions for his duties and success as a serviceman in the second half of the 19th century.
References
1. ^ [1] 2. ^ Montenegrina: Vaso Brajović - Grčki junak i heroj (Greek herro) and was widely admired by the Greek people as one of the leaders of the Cause and as one of the leading figures of the independent state.<ref>Whitcombe, T. D. ''Campaign of the Falieri and Piraeus in 1827'' (edited by C. W. J. Eliot) Town House Press Inc., Pittsboro, North Carolina, 1992 PS: It is interesting that TR sounds like he is from Skopje himself given the degree of anti-hellenic stance displayed (illogical from a person that is a self declared 'Montenegrin' nationalist as what interest would there be unless there is a sympathy between various balkan revisionists). Let it be known that true Montenegrins (Serbs from MN) as any Serbs love Greek nation and that words displayed here by the likes of TR do not represent any Montenegrin views.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 30, 2008 13:24:57 GMT -5
You read me wrong Aadmin, I come at this discussion from a neutral view...
I am not anti-greek whatsoever, I just do not appreciate greek chauvinism.
Just as I do not appreciate Serbian chauvinism, as you are showing me, trying to state that 'true montenegrins' are serbs in fact...
Vaso Brajovic was ethnically Montenegrin, he is not ethnic serb, and this kind of crap is what pisses me off here, revisionism occurs within the big states which have the power to do so(Serbia, Roman Empire, ect) not by the small states that were conquered.
Now you say that greeks had just a legendary past as the Montenegrins, within the last 1000 years, this is funny....
Did you know what the Greeks were most known for being during the time of the Roman Empire? Slaves and book-keepers....
Obviously your stance is not neutral here Aadmin, I believe it would be more beneficial to yourself if you learn to adopt a stance that is less biased and sees the whole situation equally.
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