donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 12:51:29 GMT -5
I was doing some researching as of late, and I couldn't help but notice that Illyrian and Albanian are nothing alike, Linguistically. Can someone disprove this? (Not trying to instigate, just want to see some other factual evidence than the one I've seen) Thank you. It's a little too small (the glossary) to make the conclusion you've made, i.e. that the two (Albanian & Illyrian) are "nothing" alike. The words you listed were as following; I cannot comment much on the two first words. They don't disprove the connection between Albanian & Illyrian, as words for a certain item/animal/concept can change over time, either through an internal replacement or through loan words. Many words were considered taboo in old times. For instance, the Slav word for bear, medved, is not the original word for bear. Since the bear was considered a mystical being with magic powers, the proto-Slavs substituted the ancient word with another, symbolic meaning, roughly translated as "honey eater". Other similiar examples also exist in other Indoeuropean languages, if you want, e.g. Swedish word for wolf, originally ulv, substituted with varg. The word "brisa" doesn't seem all too alien in comparison to "rrush", especially considering the tendency of Albanian to change 's' to 'sh', of which there are hundreds of examples. The Albanian word for grape, "rrush", is considered either a cognate with or a loan from the Greek word "rags". The name of Ragusa, the old name of Dubrovnik, is thought to be related to this word. Ironically, the old Albanian word for the town, as written by Pjetër Bogdani in his work Cuneus Prophetarum, was Rush. The final word, mandos, meaning small horse, might be related to the Albanian word for foal, which is mëz, or maz in the northern dialect. The word "kalë" is the word for a fully grown horse, and is considered a Latin loan word ( caballus). Besides the ones you listed, there are other glosses as well, some of which have cognates in Albanian, e.g. Illyrian "rhinon" (mist) with Albanian "ren" (cloud), or "sica" (a special weapon, short sword) with Albanian "thika" (knife) and so on.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 3, 2009 13:04:32 GMT -5
What can you make of this... Believe and Claim? I understand why though. Albanian is a very unique language in the Balkans. ^ What is states under "Origin". Why is there so much confusion with the origin of the language? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Language#Classification
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Post by insomniac on Jun 3, 2009 13:11:45 GMT -5
There is not much of the Illyrian language for us to make any conclusions. I would say, Albanian is highly influenced by Dacian language as well.
For example, the word for "cloud" in Illyrian is same as in Albanian.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 3, 2009 13:18:11 GMT -5
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 13:23:33 GMT -5
The confusion has arisen because of a lack of ancient scripts in the ancient languages of the Balkans (excluding Greek). This makes it difficult to make a definite conclusion/classification. BUT, the options in the world of serious scholarship has always been either an Illyrian origin or a Daco-Thracian one. The talks of an origin from Caucasus is within the realm of pseudo-scholarship as best exemplified by highdyke or Novi Pazar.
The heavy infusion of Latin loan words and even (though not as important) ancient Greek loan words confirm the presence of proto-Albanian in the Balkans during antiquity. Especially the ancient Greek loan words that are mostly of Doric (NW Greek) origins, seem to suggest we were present in ancient southern Illyrian lands even during antiquity. Furthermore, there are many cognate words betwen Albanian and Vlach that aren't of Latin extract, as well as grammatical similiarities, which additionally strengthens the position of Albanian as a local or native language.
PS The Illyrian word brisa which apparently means "husk of grapes" might be related to the Albanian word bërsi, meaning "lees, drags or mash", perhaps from the process of wine-making?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 13:24:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the correction.
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Post by insomniac on Jun 3, 2009 13:39:50 GMT -5
It's funny though because sometimes we use loanwords instead of the original Albanian word. I think that's very snobby. I have noticed that there has been a fall in our language culture.
We need to protect and enrich at the same time our language.
Loan - Albanian equivalent Farmaci - Barnatore Akoma - Ende angazhim-zotim, divergjence-mosmarrevshje aprovoj-miratoj aplikoj-zbatoj ekzagjeroj-teproj adapt-i pershtatshem injorant - i paditur hic - aspak
Also the use of (me shku, me pa,) is becoming rare from everyday talk. Partly, because people who use it are called "maloks" which in this case, is very bad for the development of our language.
The only way to fix this is to train yourself. Also, to correct people when they use it.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 3, 2009 13:46:41 GMT -5
Donnie I do not see the need of helping this slav. He has belittled Albanians at every opportunity he has been afforded, and questioned the richness of our history and origins. f**k him and his ilk; let him masturbate to the idea that the Albanian language does not derive from the Illyrian one and is "nothing like it" due to some incomplete glossary he found from the internet. Comments like that is why I belittle your intelligence of the propaganda-ridden kind like yourself. If you cannot add anything to this conversation, then move on, and keep hatred comments to yourself. If you shut up maybe you'll learn something too? Maybe? I genuinely want to know the origin of the Illyrian language and the Albanian connection (which I stated that I was not out to provoke, but actually researching it). Nice move you fucking douche. This is why I avoid talking to morons like you. Why can't you be more like donnie? ____________________________ Well the Pyramid in Bosnia might uncover something and shed some light on the confusion. Isn't there any linguistic documentation from the Romans? I know from Croatian history there is no mention of any other language than the ones inhabiting the Balkans today; and the ones that were Communication-Related at that time, for merchants at least. If Illyrians were the dominant group before the arrival of Slavic tribes, were they in such low populous numbers that the Old-Age Slavs (Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians) actually overran them? Which would make this accurate? (4th Century) So according to the Hallstatt Culture (Bronze Age), Illyrians could be Celto-Germanic and Thracian? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_cultureNot a bad connection.
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Post by insomniac on Jun 3, 2009 13:51:52 GMT -5
As you shows in your map, Illyrian, Dacians and Thracians are overlapping each other. They probably influenced one another. Albanian today is probably a mix of the three.
The question is which one has influenced it the most? For that, I'm not a linguist although several studies are done by Austrians and Germans about us.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 13:59:42 GMT -5
The Romans and Greeks simply recorded that "Illyrians" inhabited the eastern shores of the Adriatic; they did not specify much. Besides the glosses, the references of Greeks and Romans related to Illyrians mostly deal with the latter's warlike tendencies and their links to piracy.
Actually, most believe that they were firstly Romanized before the Slavs came. We Albanians were apparently an exception, living in a mountainous and isolated territory, we somehow escaped Romanization (though not unharmed; much of our vocabulary is Latin-based). When the Slavs came, they did overrun the locals. But I doubt they wiped them all out. Some probably fled to the south, others closed themselves within the city walls of big towns, like Ragusa. Here, non-Slav language and culture (Vegliot, Dalmatian language) survived for quite some time. A substantial segment did adopt the Slav speech ... but not without trace, as old customs and even words managed to survive. Thus, for example, the tradition of tattoos survived both in the highlads of Albania and Hercegovina. The Illyrians were known for tattoos. Some words too seem to be of the same origins, like the Herzegovinian "ganga", perhaps related to our word "kanga" meaning song. In Montenegro too, besides the language, a way of life and a style seemingly indistinguishable from Albanians and Vlachs emerged.
This material culture doesn't say much about what its founders spoke, and there is no support of a Celto-Germanic origin of the Illyrians. Though the Celts did invade Illyria, and some Illyrian tribes were so heavily intermixed with Celts that they were considered hybrid, e.g. the Iapodes or Scordisci (more Celtic than Illyrian). On the other hand, there are good reasons to suspect a link between Illyrian and Thracian.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 3, 2009 14:01:20 GMT -5
As you shows in your map, Illyrian, Dacians and Thracians are overlapping each other. They probably influenced one another. Albanian today is probably a mix of the three. The question is which one has influenced it the most? For that, I'm not a linguist although several studies are done by Austrians and Germans about us. Yeah a mix is very possible. Albanian could be a mix. To determine which is the most dominant of the three/four mixed would take some time.. if that is the scenario.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 3, 2009 14:08:22 GMT -5
The Romans and Greeks simply recorded that "Illyrians" inhabited the eastern shores of the Adriatic; they did not specify much. Besides the glosses, the references of Greeks and Romans related to Illyrians mostly deal with the latter's warlike tendencies and their links to piracy. Actually, most believe that they were firstly Romanized before the Slavs came. We Albanians were apparently an exception, living in a mountainous and isolated territory, we somehow escaped Romanization (though not unharmed; much of our vocabulary is Latin-based). When the Slavs came, they did overrun the locals. But I doubt they wiped them all out. Some probably fled to the south, others closed themselves within the city walls of big towns, like Ragusa. Here, non-Slav language and culture (Vegliot, Dalmatian language) survived for quite some time. A substantial segment did adopt the Slav speech ... but not without trace, as old customs and even words managed to survive. Thus, for example, the tradition of tattoos survived both in the highlads of Albania and Hercegovina. The Illyrians were known for tattoos. Some words too seem to be of the same origins, like the Herzegovinian "ganga", perhaps related to our word "kanga" meaning song. In Montenegro too, besides the language, a way of life and a style seemingly indistinguishable from Albanians and Vlachs emerged. This material culture doesn't say much about what its founders spoke, and there is no support of a Celto-Germanic origin of the Illyrians. Though the Celts did invade Illyria, and some Illyrian tribes were so heavily intermixed with Celts that they were considered hybrid, e.g. the Iapodes or Scordisci (more Celtic than Illyrian). On the other hand, there are good reasons to suspect a link between Illyrian and Thracian. Yeah I've been to a number of Albanian weddings, and to tell you the truth, the music and way of dancing (culture in general) is near exact, just different words haha. Well I'll come back with more question later on; But to understand the Albanian Language and its Origins, a person definitely needs to check on the background of the Illyrians and their origins, as well as their language (As much as there is to learn).
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Post by alb12345 on Jun 3, 2009 14:33:02 GMT -5
If albanian language and albanian origin in general get to a point to say we are 100% sure they come from here and language originete from one of ancient languages then i wonder what will hapen with fyrom and modern greeks. As long as we stay a mistery they are safe
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 14:33:13 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, you're from Hercegovina, and this region, alongside Dalmatia & Montenegro, are the parts of Serbo-Croatian speaking regions that have preserved their pre-Slavic legacy the best. This is seen in the local culture ... the farther north you go, the more "Slavic" in culture it gets, e.g. Slavonija which to my understanding is very akin to Hungary or Slovakia. Of course there are other factors involved as well, such as being divided between two different empires (an Ottoman and a Habsburg one). But certain things remain unexplained, such as the tattoos, a practice unknown to Slavs outside the Balkans.
Illyrian and Daco-Thracian ... though most lean towards Illyrian.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 3, 2009 14:36:18 GMT -5
If albanian language and albanian origin in general get to a point to say we are 100% sure they come from here and language originete from one of ancient languages then i wonder what will hapen with fyrom and modern greeks. As long as we stay a mistery they are safe FYROM? It is blatantly obvious that their language is a Slavic one, and not the one which Alexander the Great spoke.
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Post by alb12345 on Jun 3, 2009 14:38:02 GMT -5
donnies tell me why albanian geg dialect is so close to ancient greeks ? then we can look at illyrian or thracian
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 3, 2009 14:45:27 GMT -5
Which one did Alexander the Great spoke?
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Post by insomniac on Jun 3, 2009 14:50:23 GMT -5
Alexander probably spoke Greek although his mother was supposedly Illyrian. These are difficult questions people that have taken scholar years to research. And after that, they were still not sure what people spoke since the evidence was not definate.
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Post by chalkedon on Jun 3, 2009 14:57:18 GMT -5
oh...its pretty much definate.
Unless your a skopian..
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Post by insomniac on Jun 3, 2009 15:09:22 GMT -5
LOL. Oh, I don't believe in their theories. I think it's a silly issue to begin with. We just support Maks, to spite you. They are trying to invent a new identty based on historical untruths. We know that. I dont see why it should bother Greece to this extent when the truth is as clear like oil in water.
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