ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 9:18:33 GMT -5
I doubt its a civil law violation. Civil law regulates relations between citizens. Maybe you meant its a violation of public law (regulates the relations between citizens and the state) or international public law (regulates relations between states). The most applicable here would be international public law, but I doubt in any source of international public law it is written that a state has to make its archive open for the others.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 6, 2009 10:38:28 GMT -5
No what I mean with violation of civil law is all frauds they've been making, intentionally, to acheieve the false genocide acusations against the turks. The fact that thier own archives are not open (as opposed to the ottoman ones) is another proof. And to crown all, Armenians have the gall to accuse them for genocide. SO insane..
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 12:12:48 GMT -5
Again: CIVIL LAW DOES NOT REGULATE RELATIONS BETWEEN STATES (ARMENIA AND TURKEY).
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 12:15:01 GMT -5
By the way mass killings (crime against humanity) is a crime forbidden by INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL LAW. Maybe this is the part of law you are looking for.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 6, 2009 12:17:51 GMT -5
Again: Fraud is violation against all law. If you wish against Armenians own law. It has nothing to do between states of Turkey and Armenia. And yes, it was the Armenians who also started the mass killings (the crimes against humanity).
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 12:26:54 GMT -5
No, originally, if a state claims a mass killings the proceedings takes place in International Criminal Courts (check Miloshevich in Hague). It depends what the crime is really.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 12:27:41 GMT -5
Also CIVIL LAW is different from CRIMINAL LAW so you are wrong anyways.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 6, 2009 12:34:59 GMT -5
What counts here is: they used intentionally fraudulent documents, specially prapaired for their filthy cause - to acuse other nation for genocide. So you are the wrong here and don't turn the subject into another direction. I do not need your explains about which law is what.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 12:40:14 GMT -5
Why? You obviously needed the lecture.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 6, 2009 17:35:27 GMT -5
Hey, since a bunch of Armenians were fasifying important official documents it's counted not only as criminal act, but as against the civil law. You don't start something and later blame the other part being guilty! You don't start killing ppl and expect that the other part will stay calm or say "thank you very much". Another thing.. you blame Ottomans for genocide against Armenians, but at the same time you don't take into account that what Armenians were doing against Turks (and Ottoman empire in general) was quite provoking. In fact, Armenians could not handle this from the very start. Wonder why.. Ioan read here abouit your favourite subject: "Civil law usually refers to area of laws and justice that affect the legal status of individuals. The principle of civil law is to provide all citizens with an accessible and written collection of the laws which apply to them and which judges must follow. It is the most prevalent and oldest surviving legal system in the world. In civil law there is the attempt to right a wrong, honor an agreement, or settle a dispute. If there is a victim, they get compensation, and the person who is the cause of the wrong pays, this being a civilized form of, or legal alternative to, revenge". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(common_law)
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 6, 2009 22:59:55 GMT -5
I m sorry Rhezus BUT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND anything from law. In any case that Armenian case would never be "an act against civil law". But obviously you even DO NOT READ what you posted so I give up. I know enough about civil law, its your knowlegde that is LACKING.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Aug 7, 2009 1:30:50 GMT -5
Recently I read a book from my library called Denial, I dont have the authors name but it wasnt written by an Armenian and it was actually very critical of the Armenian position I mean many Armenians would not be too happy with it . Despite very critical comments regarding the Armenian position the author also examines the Turkish position and summarises on what basis denial of genocide and massacres are made. Finally in conclusion the author does agree with the assertion that effectively there was an Armenian genocide. I have spoken to an academic who has studied this subject in University , this person also made some critical comments regarding some prponents of the Armenian position and admitted however he also believes there was a genocide against Armenians and believes there is overwhelming evidence to believe this. Again: Fraud is violation against all law. If you wish against Armenians own law. It has nothing to do between states of Turkey and Armenia. And yes, it was the Armenians who also started the mass killings (the crimes against humanity).
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 7, 2009 3:35:47 GMT -5
I am not a lawyer, but falsifying, using fraudulent documents, prepairing and performing mass killings etc.. is obviously not a violation in Bulgaria, I don't know.. Or because these ppl were muslims may be you don't count that as murders?! At least, these are facts which you or anybody else can deny. These are facts that made that Ottomans answered back. And of course, Armenians had no balls enough to handle the situation anymore, realizing they get into the hornets' nest too late, they now turned it to Armenian "genocide".. It's not smbdy else, but their fault.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 7, 2009 6:10:03 GMT -5
Its a criminal law offence, not civil. Please spare us the melodramatism because of the islamic faith. No one cares about religious preferences in Bulgaria, you know that. Plus the islamic Bulgarians are as Bulgarian as the orthodox or the catholic Bulgarians or the Jewish Bulgarians.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 7, 2009 6:54:18 GMT -5
I see, you got stuck in definitions like civil and criminal law offence. The melodramatic here is that Armenians play the victims today, but they are not.
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Post by Kastorianos on Aug 7, 2009 8:32:56 GMT -5
Come on Rhezus your arrogance is boundless...who do you believe you are to determine if the Armenians suffered a genocid or not...the majority of the historians have recognized it...and you know that...if it was that easy as you try to portray it they hadnt...you are simply biased thats all about it...denying a genocid is a crime...and you will pay for that one day.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Aug 7, 2009 8:44:44 GMT -5
The Following excerpt is from a book I am reading
The Ottoman Empire 1700-1922, 2000, by Donald Quataert.
Donald Quartet is Professor of History at Binghampton University, State University of New York. He has published many books on Middle East and Ottoman history, including An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1914.
The Armenian massacres of 1915 - 1916 ,pg's 186 - 189.
Both the scale and frequency of violence among Ottoman communal groups increased during the nineteenth century. Unparalleled in ferocity and scope were the attacks against the Ottoman Armenian population.
These began with massacres of Armenians in 1895 - 1896 which were repeated in 1908, 1909, and again in 1912. In this last set of assualts, recently arrived Muslim refugees from lost provinces in the Balkans played an important role.
During the Balkan wars, vast numbers of Muslims had been driven from European provinces, to towns such as Tekirdag/Rodosto and Malgara on the north of the Marmara Sea and in Adapazari in west Anatolia.
In these places the refugees vented their frustration and anger on hapless and innocent Ottoman Armenians. By far the worst however were the massacres of 1915 - 1916. An estimated 600,000 Armenian Ottoman subjects died during and after deportation from their east Anatolian homes, as they moved towards the Arab provinces.
The story begins as war erupted in 1914 between Russia and the Ottomans along the east Anatolian frontier. With Russian invaders came Armenian soldiers as well as some Ottoman Armenians who had defected to the enemy.
In 1915, Ottoman Young Turk ruling circles issued orders for the deportation of the entire Armenian populuation of East Anatolia out of the battle zone,southward to the Syrian deserts.
These orders exixt and can be examined and read , they are authentic materials and not forgeries or part of a hoax and are full of directives commanding the protection and care of the deportees and their properties.
Order after order speaks of the need to guard the deportees and their property and issue their safety.
Those deported often walked as their were few trains, and as they walked they suffered and some died of malnutrition or an accompanying disease .Others died at the hands of bandits or other Ottoman civillians who preyed on the weak.
But, the solicitious state documents not withstanding , there is abundant evidence that low and high Ottoman officers, soldiers and bureacrats - the very perons who has the sworn responsibilty to defend and protect the lives o all Ottoman subjects regardless of religion or ethnicity - murdered vast numbers of Armenian civillians , men women and children alike .
Moreover, the patterns of the killings were chillingly similiar in the variuous areas, powerfully suggesting the presence of a coordinated program.
How can we reconcile the orders commanding care and diligence with the murderous and apparently coordinated slaughter by state military and civil officials ?
Consider this assesment of the events, one that seems to be gaining acceptance among scholars on both sides of the controversy.
There was a circle , acting like a state within a state, within the ruling Committee of Union and Progress group. Coming to power in early 1913, members of this circle secretly sought to use deportation as a guise for exterminating the Armenians.
As World War 1 developed , they increasingly feared the potential ability of Armenian revolutionary organizations to overthrow the Ottoman state and /or the consequences of mass Armenian defections in east Anatolia to the Russians.
Under the leadership o Talat Pasha , a major Union and Progress figure , the group employed the Special Organization (Teskilat Mahsusa) to carry out the massacres outside the formal government apparatus and lines of communication. This parallel organization organized and coordinated the killings , often using government officials and troops who were its members.
The Special Organization sent directives to the many locations where the killings occured , using its own networks rather than state channels of communication.
Since the records of both the Special Organization and the Committe of Union and Progress were either lost or destroyed , this argument cannot be established without doubt .
On the evidence presented it seems plausible that high ranking officials of the Ottoman state , utilizing the Special Organization directed a concerted , centrally orchestrated program that murdered massive numbers of Ottoman Armenians.
Asking the question whether this crisis was the first twentieth - century genocide runs the risk of being submerged in semantic arguments and thus avoiding the real issues.
After all, most Armenians died because of their presumed identity, not because of their own actions or beliefs.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 7, 2009 14:05:20 GMT -5
And who are you to determine that turk did not suffered as much as them? All depends from which prospective you see things and who did what.
It remains to be seen, who will pay and who will not. Don't forget how all started, who started it and to what eventually it turned out..
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Post by rusebg on Aug 7, 2009 15:18:39 GMT -5
Rhezus, there is nothing wrong with your point of view. After all, you are Turk. Just stop posting that you are Bulgarian because it is emarassing. And yes, that was a genocide. Despite the money and efforts all Turkish governmental organization spend on trying to hide this, it will remain a genocide to anyone with at least two brain cells.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 7, 2009 17:46:16 GMT -5
Hey Ruse, I am as much Bulgarian as you or any other Bulgarian... (non-turk or turkic origin like you though! I know you are teasing me saying this). But unlike you, I don't have any problems with turks, on the contrary, I like them! Since there is so much anger and hatred against turks (here in illyria proboards), I decided to support these ppl. I have good turkish friends, I find them just cool. My present chick is Bulgarian, originating from turkish part of Thrace. My ex-girlfriend had ethnic turkish origin. So, can you tell me.. in which way you find we are better than these people? Are we really better?! I still don't get it, why so many constantly address blames towards them here, today?! It seems like all these individuals get brain orgasm by doing so. I personally think, such kind of behaviour wigwags they are sitting stuck in 15th or 16th, 17th or 18th century. It's a problem, you see, it's a vicious circle... and that's the balkan syndrom. The reason why I don't belive that turks started killing armenians just for fun! There were some serious motives and the armenians know it very well.
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