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Post by chalkedon on Aug 11, 2009 12:57:58 GMT -5
Ok..bad example I used. Im referring to this Allahu Akbar crap...I think it doesnt belong in Europe, USA, or Australia for that matter. If they want to come then they have to refine their religion in line with their host countries and modern day realities. The catholics did it, the protestants did it and so should the muslims. End of story.... Well, the Native Americans would probably argue the same thing about the whites; they don't belong to the Americas! But this didn't stop the whites from conquoring the "New World" and changing its demographic makeup for all eternity. Now, only 2,5 million people out of some 300 million are registered as Native Americans. The same goes for the demographic history and reality of Australia. It's not a matter of subjective thoughts of what belongs where, but in the end, who is strong enough to carry out his ambitions and dominate others. Islam tried to conquor Europe with arms, firstly with the Moors who couldn't go beyond Iberia, and secondly with the Ottomans, who were halted in Vienna. Now, there's a different way of expanding into the heart of the Christian world, namely immigration. But whether the outcome of this immigration will be as severe and profound as that video tries to argue, I doubt it. Im with you on this one Donnie. The natives got shafted big time, and sadly they have been reduced to a bunch of alcoholics and sexual abusers. muslim immigration is worst than the first 2 you mentioned. As long as europeans our resistant and lay the smack down on their horrid backward ways. Then europe will not have any problems. Take France for example...they say if you want to wear a burqa...then stay the hell home. Sarkozy said there is no place in europe for ppl with that type of mentality. God Bless him and Viva la France ;D
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 11, 2009 13:00:06 GMT -5
Ok..bad example I used. Im referring to this Allahu Akbar crap...I think it doesnt belong in Europe, USA, or Australia for that matter. If they want to come then they have to refine their religion in line with their host countries and modern day realities. The catholics did it, the protestants did it and so should the muslims. End of story.... Who is to say that the Arabs will turn the European states into a purely religious one? But I do agree, some of these Arabs do have problem with Secular ideas and need to be more accepting of others' religions. Maybe Greece should do the same. Greece should be secular, i agree. But it will take time, I respect the church but they should just be involved in religous matters. And yes, many arabs do have problems with secular countries. Except the turks of course....and for this, i respect that
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Post by chalkedon on Aug 11, 2009 13:00:48 GMT -5
Lets just hope Erdogan doesnt screw it up with his islamic party
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Post by insomniac on Aug 11, 2009 14:23:33 GMT -5
There are no boogeyman muslims.
Live and let live.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 11, 2009 14:39:05 GMT -5
even if what it was shown in the clip was to become true, Islam will get inhibited in European culture (just like Christianity did) and become less of rigid doctrine to some version of Bektashi like Islam. Bektashi Islam = Balkan Islam. All other forms of Islam in Albania should be banned and everyone should be Bektashi. ;D The Frasheri brothers idealized that all Albanians (Muslim or Christian) would convert to Bektashism and make that the national faith, whether Islamic, Christian and nationalist ideals would be combined into a single faith.
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Post by L0gjICK on Aug 11, 2009 14:43:09 GMT -5
I know a few Prespars that are Bektashi but I don't think I've seen or heard about them in Macedonia. Are most Bektashi followers Albanian? I know the headquarters are in Tirana..........
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 11, 2009 16:37:22 GMT -5
In the Balkans, Bektashism is almost entirely isolated among us southern Albanian Tosks. It forms, today, the majority of Tosk identity, followed afterwards by Orthodox Christianity. Among the Ghegs there are more isolated Bektashi areas (like Kruja, which is majority Bektashi), but most Bektashis are concentrated in southern and central Albania.
It was once thought that majority of Muslim Albanians were at one point Bektashi Muslims but more and more were 'Sunnized' as persecution of Bektashis in the Ottoman realm increased. Southern Albania became a center for Bektashi Islam since Ottomans were not able to pierce the zone to force the locals into Sunnism. The end result is numerous Bektashi communities would come and hide in the mountains of the south.
I think the manor of conversion was one of the reasons also. Most in southern Albania were converted through the Devshirme and Bektashism was most popular among the Janissaries.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 11, 2009 17:07:24 GMT -5
That would ultimately mean that most of the Albanians who served as janissaries were really from the south, since as you said, Bektashism is really centered in the south with a few small enclaves in the north and Kosova. Dervishes in Kosova do exist and are infact numerous in Dukagjin (particularly in and around Gjakova, Prizren & Rahovec), but they're not all Bektashi; many other sects exist too. To my knowledge, Dibra too is a Bektashi center, which is ironic since there was a rebellion there in the 16th century against the devshirme practice. Possibly it wasn't so successful, the rebellion that is ...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 11, 2009 17:24:26 GMT -5
Dibra? Really? Dibranet have a tendency to be among the most religious of Albanians. Especially Dibranes across the border in Macedonia. i never took them for having any strong Bektashi
Most Janissaries were in fact from southern Albania. If you look at the various Albanian viziers, maybe one or two of them were ever Ghegs. Almost all were from southern Albania. In fact, in accordance with this fact, Turkish historian wrote:
The region of Albania is extremely rugged and its people are wild and brave... Tosks perform every service whereas Ghegs are animals herders...
I think that there may have been a tendency for Ghegs to not hand over their children to education. The high autonomy and independence of Gheg tribes, in contrast to Tosk ones, was probably a reason for this. Children were kept at home to learn the ways of their ancestors instead of receiving education abroad that could 'corrupt' them. There was a general bias against urbanized Albanians, especially those who returned home from istanbul. After Dod Biba came back from years in exile in Istanbul and heard the customary gunshot fired as the seal of the oath, he is supposed to have gotten a little shook. Albanians around him noted this and saw it as a negative sign of how he was... softened by life in Istanbul.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 11, 2009 17:35:21 GMT -5
Yes Dibra is a Bektashi center. The religious fanaticism is more at home in Tetove. The dibrans were pretty close to Avdyl Frasheri if I am not mistaken, lining behind his autonomist ideals during the time of the Prizren League. This presumably due to the Bektashi connection. ----------------- Scratch that about Dibra being Bektashi; it is partly a Bektashi center. There seems to be a Sunni element too, and I am not certain which is predominant. Read this; www.shqiperia.com/kat/m/shfaqart/aid/286/Kryengritja-e-Dibres-dhe-revolta-e-Shkodres-kunder-Tanzimatit-(1860-1861).htmlNe vitet 1860 ka pasur nje konflikt mes suniteve dhe bektashinjve nen Sheh Fejzen. Porta e larte i favorizonte sunitet kunder bektashinjve qe nuk i donin reformat e propozuara dhe te zbatuara nga Stambolli.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Aug 11, 2009 17:37:01 GMT -5
Bektashi today are on the moral high ground when it comes to education
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Post by ILIRI I MADH on Aug 11, 2009 23:46:47 GMT -5
bektashis chill in the white house nowdays
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Aris
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Post by Aris on Aug 12, 2009 15:10:45 GMT -5
No one could do more kids than us ! Close REX with 100 woman in a room for some hours , and after 9 months you will have 100 Pelasgian babies ! ___________________________________
REX , THE SPERMINATOR !
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Post by oszkarthehun on Aug 13, 2009 3:49:21 GMT -5
even if what it was shown in the clip was to become true, Islam will get inhibited in European culture (just like Christianity did) and become less of rigid doctrine to some version of Bektashi like Islam. I think you are probably right. I get the feeling many of the younger generations in Islamic countries are already looking to some degree in that direction.
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Post by luarasi on Aug 13, 2009 10:00:32 GMT -5
I just want to clear something: some people here seem to think that Bektashi Islam is almost a separate religion, but actually I don't think it's the case. We even keep the tradition of Shëngjergj (I wash myself with flowers and we make "voe të zime"* because it's a tradition for Shëngjergj). We make a melting-pot af uslim sunni tradition, with some bektashi tradition and christian traditions, but we aren't Bektashi. Actually, the fact that my gran-mother went to teqe is maybe an influence of the Dibra region that, like Donnie said, was a Bektashi well known center. And the Dibra (the part of Dibra that is in Albania at least) and Luma regions are very close (for instance, Dibrans and Lumjans have no problem to marry eachother, they have this awfull accent, wich is even more awfull in Dibra, etc). So I don't think that the separation between the Bektashi and the Sunni Balkanic (I insist on Balkanic, because it's clear that, for exemple, the Saudian Sunni tradition is clearly very very very far from the Bektashi tradition) tradition is that deep. If you are s Sunni Muslim and don't fast for Ramadan, drink alcohol, don't cover your woman, then of course you are going to think that Bektashi isn't that different because you lead a European style of life, but that being so doesn't mean that Sunni and Bektashism are similar, just because we are secular in our behavior and share similar mentality doesn't bring Bektashism and Sunni to the ideological level closer than they are in reality. I know lots of crypto Bektashis in Macedonia who are afraid to come out because of the Sunni majority religious intolerance. Clearly, differences are not on the fetish level, but major ones.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Aug 13, 2009 13:16:50 GMT -5
Bektashi dont eat rabbit
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Aug 13, 2009 13:57:57 GMT -5
Ok but, bektashi drinking vodka!! Video, Can somebody translate this Ermira Babaliu song into English Cheers!!!
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 13, 2009 14:26:17 GMT -5
Bektashi/Sunni differences are not so pronounced in Albania today because most people are not religious. Many Bektashis have always been somewhat afraid to fully show themselves, except in southern Albania. There was a tendency to Sunnize the Bektashi. For instance late in the Ottoman Empire orders went out for Bektashi to construct minarets for their teqes and obey the prayer call. There was increasing pressure to follow Sunni rules and fill Sunni obligations. This has, unfortunately, continued till late in places like Macedonia, where, for instance, some teqes have been seized by certain few groups and turned into full mosques.
In the end, Bektashi Islam is in fact Islam. Its not a separate faith. But I think that the mentality of the Bektashi was pretty different from the Sunnis. Bektashis were less attached to the Ottoman realm, especially after the persecutions. A Bektashi Turkish friend of mine once said that "The Young Turk Revolution was the revenge of the Bektashis". While not necessarily true, there is a truth to that.
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Aug 13, 2009 14:36:40 GMT -5
In the end, Bektashi Islam is in fact Islam. Its not a separate faith. But I think that the mentality of the Bektashi was pretty different from the Sunnis. Bektashi is moderated Islam branch which avoiding extremes and change for better.
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Post by shejtani on Aug 14, 2009 6:27:57 GMT -5
I know that Chams were very anti bektashi.
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