ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 2, 2009 0:40:11 GMT -5
From your link. Your post merely shows that there were Serbs in Macedonia and nothing else. But how many were there? 5,000? 10,000? Hell, even if there were 100,000 (even though there weren’t anywhere near that number) Serbian sources prior to the massive anti-Bulgarian propaganda campaign easily identify that Bulgarians made up more than 80% of Macedonia’s population.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 2, 2009 3:18:03 GMT -5
Not bad for a nation who just moved into the block ;D This was from 630 AD!!! Anyway, this is how things ended up: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 2, 2009 3:21:17 GMT -5
"The ethnic group closest to the Serbs genetically is the Macedonian Slavs" AND The western Bulgarians Novi! Dont forget those long lost EKAVICA STOKAVICA SPEAKERS!!!
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 2, 2009 5:53:47 GMT -5
^ thats right pyrro, hence the vidovden ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 2, 2009 6:13:50 GMT -5
Ooops we almost forgot Vidovdan the ANCIENT SERBIAN RITUAL!
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 2, 2009 6:20:47 GMT -5
^ a cultural genocide may occur like what the Bulgars did with vardarians who celebrated the slava.
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Post by macmako on Nov 2, 2009 8:03:48 GMT -5
In reference to your map concerning the haplogroup I2, it is specifically the haplogroup I1A2, which is :
"I2a2 Distribution of Haplogroup I2a2
I2a2 (M423) is typical of populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Dalmatia (Croatia) and Bosnia-Herzegovina(>50%).[9] Haplogroup I2a2 is also commonly found in other Slavic peoples, Romanians, Moldovans, Hungarians, Albanians, Greeks, and northeastern Italians.[7] The highest frequency and diversity of Haplogroup I2a2 among populations of the Western Balkans lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for populations bearing Haplogroup I2a2 during the last glacial maximum. The subclade divergence for P37.2 occurred 10.7±4.8 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the P37.2 subclade is 8.0±4.0 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the M423 subclade is 8.8±3.6 kya (Underhill 2007). Pericic places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic” (Pericic 2005)."
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Nov 2, 2009 13:23:35 GMT -5
So both Pyrro and Novi are ultra-nationalistic and hatful illiterates who rely on distorted facts, and clearly have no objectivity. There were never any large scale Serb settlements in Macedonia.
I've said it before, but any Serb that is not taller than 190cm, is most likely an assimilated Bulgarian (or Macedonian), or Albanian, or Greek, or Turk, or Gypsy. Keep that in mind when you are doing your comparisons, and try doing a genetic comparison of Serbs near in the Belgrade region with ones that are south of that.. oh and try to stick to objective sources, not the usual propaganda bs that you guys spew repeatedly with no sign of intelligent thought process.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 2, 2009 19:08:34 GMT -5
In connection with the features making the religious and national unity of the Slavs inhabiting Southern Serbia (Vardar), mention should also be made of the celebration of the *slava*, a custom peculiar to the serbs and unknown to the Bulgars. There is abundant evidence that this custom was observed by the *entire Orthodox population of these regions*; we also know that it was regarded by the Bulgars as something completely *alien* to them. Both Ivan Jastrebov and Jovan Cvijich, two of the closest students of these regions, asserted that the Orthodox Slavs celebrated the *slava*. Furthermore, those Slavs in Macedonia who had *turned Mohammedan* and adopted the Albanian tongue long preserved their former religious customs. When the Bulgars began to spread their propaganda over Southern Serbia (Vardar), apart from destroying frescoes and books of Serbian recension, they forbade the celebration of the *slava*. (In passing, it should be noted that the Bulgars treated Greek inscriptions on frescoes in the same way as Serbian: Heinrich Gelzer has recorded that the Bulgarian exarchist bishop of Ohrid ordered the Greek inscriptions on the frescoes in the church of St. Clement to be erased, while the bishop of Bitolj destroyed a "trapazarion" and erected a school on its site). Until a few decades ago, the Bulgars, in that part of Southern Serbia, which they conquered, regarded all those who celebrated the *slava* as Serbs. Gilbert in der Maur quotes the following case: during World War 1, the Bulgarian troops under the command of first lieutenant Protogerov were ordered to inflict reprisals upon the population east of Kumanovo for an attack made on some Bulgarian troops. Before the reprisal measures were begun, the entire population declared that it was Bulgarian, purely in order to avoid being punished. Protogerov was greatly perplexed. "Then Protogerov's aides had an idea: they asked who celebrated the *slava*. Those who did were shot, since the celebration of the slava is a sign that one is a Serb: it is a custom which the Bulgars do not have."
Source:
Gilbert in der Maur, Jugoslawien einst und jetzt, Leipzig Vienna, 1936, p.330
Heinrich Geizer, Vom heiligen Berge und aus Makedonien, Leipzig, 1904, p.159
You see Asen, they are not what you think. Just remember, where there is a slava there you'll find a serb.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 3, 2009 11:15:33 GMT -5
Novi your sources are filled with synthesis of information, this means that they quote authors who have one opinion and purposefully represent it as another. A great example is the sources that you usually post quoting Balisford, who clearly identifies Macedonians as Bulgarians.. but your sources only take some parts of his studies and distort the actual conclusions.
The fact that this quote refers to Macedonia as South Serbia is alone a clear sign that it’s nothing more than propaganda. It has no credibility.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 3, 2009 23:18:24 GMT -5
^ so is it a Bulgar tradition or a serbian tradition, you tell me?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 4, 2009 2:18:39 GMT -5
Saint Sava was a Serbian. However his work did have big reflection on Bulgaria - His works “The Rudder of Nomocanon” (1220) and “Synodic of Orthodoxy” (1221) became the spiritual pillars of the Serbian statehood and the basis of the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the kingdoms of Serbia, Bulgaria and Russia throughout the entire Middle Ages. In 1270 the first copy of The Rudder of St Sava was sent from Bulgaria to Metropolitan Cyril of Kiev. He was really welcomed by us, Bulgarians - The first Serbian Patriarch and the founder and creator of a distinct form of Orthodoxy named by him — Svetosavlje, St. Sava passed away in 1235, in the Bulgarian town Trnovo, where he went at the invitation of Bulgarian King Ivan Asen II and patriarch of Trnovo. Participating in a ceremony called Blessing of the Waters (Agiasmo) he developed a cough that progressed into pneumonia. He died from pneumonia in the evening between Saturday and Sunday, January 14, 1235. He was buried at the Cathedral of the Holy Forty Martyrs in Trnovo where his body remained until May 6, 1237, when his sacred bones were moved to the monastery Mileševa in central Serbia. de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=4670So I must say he is a Serbian saint who has influenced the neighbouring Balkan states: he is celebrated in some parts of Bulgaria too: in the Republic of Macedonia and in the Western Bulgaria: because those lands were in contact with our neighbours the Serbs. The fact that some Bulgarians do celebrate st Sava does not make them Serbs. In this logic we must conclude that all Bulgarians are indeed Greeks: because Dimitrius was from Thesaloniki, long before the arrival of the slavs. But he is one of the biggest Bulgarian saints: his name day is a official celebration. Œåãîâà ñëàâà ñå óáðçî ïðåíåñå ïðåêî ãðàíèöà Áóãàðñêå ó Ñðáè¼ó, Ìàêåäîíè¼ó è øèðîì Åâðîïå. sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%88%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%A0%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 4, 2009 5:32:37 GMT -5
^ l'm talking about the tradition of Slava, not st. sava. This tradition was observed in early 11th century.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 4, 2009 5:50:23 GMT -5
I told you: the tradition to celebrate St Dimitrius was a Greek tradition, that was picked up by all the Bulgarians. This doesnt make us Greek. The same with saint Sava: he is a Serbian, his custom was serbian, he is celebrated by some Bulgarians, but this does not proove they are Serbian.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 4, 2009 10:49:04 GMT -5
Vilayet of Veles, village of Jabolchiste: „Novak Burhanin,; Tome Belche, Bogche, Todor, son of Belche; Hrchko, brother of Pecko; Pejo, son of Danche, Vlkashin, Srbin; Gjurash, Srbin, Rade Stari; Dojchin, his son; Gjorgjo, son of Rade; Rale Momchil; Hrlo, son of Dapko; Brajko, son of Kovach; Ivan; Stale,son of Stojan; Rale, son of Stojan; Stepan, Srbin; Dabe; Pejchin, son of Rade...†(Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 143) village of Dobrushevo, Vilayet of Prilep: „Bogdan Srbin; Marko, his son, Dimitri son of Gruban...Dimitri son of Srbin; Todor son of Srbin, Pejo son of Rajcho... (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 60) village of Sopotnica, northwest from Krushevo: â€Ivanish Stale; Stanisha Mano; Petko, Srbin; Petar, Srbin; Stajko Srbin...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 540) village of Divjaci, northwest od Krushevo: â€Jandro, Srbin; Miho son of Srbin; Dimitri son of Srbin, Petko son of the priest...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 541) village of Volkoselo, nahiya of Prilep; â€Bogavec, Srbin; Stanisha son in law of Bogdan...Stanisha, Srbin; Pejo, son of Tonchin...„ (Turski dokumenti za istorijata na makedonskiot narod, Skopje, 1971, str 95) Asen, was there serbian brainwashing also in the 18th century lmao I don't see what you have proved with this Novi .. if anything., it suggests the opposite of what you're aiming to prove. Why did the author/s of these documents feel the need to highlight these inhabitants as 'Serbs' (Srbin)? To me it suggests a mean of differentiation, meaning that precisely their Serbian identity set these people apart from the rest, hence the need to adress them as Serbs. If they were all Serbs, there would be no need to call this or that person a Serb, because they would all be Serbs, and calling someone by this name wouldn't be of any descriptive value. On the other hand, if they're Serbs in a sea of Bulgarians/Macedonians, it is a completely different story. Then the appellative "Serb" has a descriptive value as it differentiates those people somehow from the rest.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 4, 2009 11:10:30 GMT -5
Thanks Donnie! Great observation and highly valued input. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 4, 2009 11:34:15 GMT -5
Donnie and Asen, it is obvious you haven't dealt with Novi that much. Let me tell you something: it is easier to put on your jeans through your head than to explain anything to Novi. It is the umpthieth time he has posted this 'source', every time he gets this reaction but to no avail. His next source will be a remarkable masterpiece of a german geologist on Balkan languages and dialects (without the geologist speaking any of them, just like Novi), followed by some strange text claiming that Bulgars arrived for the first time in the balkans both in the 7th and the 9th century. He is clueless, don't bother.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 4, 2009 13:17:33 GMT -5
True, but it's not necessarely to convince Novi of otherwise that I am responding. I do it for the anonymous readers who might fall for the BS presented here. If unopposed, some of the arguments presented by Novi might seem reasonable, convincing even. When opposed, however, they shatter.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Nov 4, 2009 14:47:03 GMT -5
Ruse and Donnie, both good points.. but for me personally it's somewhat entertaining and I find Novi's ignorance quite amusing.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 4, 2009 21:16:58 GMT -5
"I don't see what you have proved with this Novi .. if anything., it suggests the opposite of what you're aiming to prove. Why did the author/s of these documents feel the need to highlight these inhabitants as 'Serbs' (Srbin)? To me it suggests a mean of differentiation, meaning that precisely their Serbian identity set these people apart from the rest, hence the need to adress them as Serbs. If they were all Serbs, there would be no need to call this or that person a Serb, because they would all be Serbs, and calling someone by this name wouldn't be of any descriptive value."
&
On the other hand, if they're Serbs in a sea of Bulgarians/Macedonians, it is a completely different story. Then the appellative "Serb" has a descriptive value as it differentiates those people somehow from the rest."
To me its quite interesting since the Bulgars here will say the serbs are only found in the very north-west corner of vardar, but with the above source, some of the vardarians from veles named their children of their ethnicity. Not everysingle family will name their male child as 'srbin'.
Donnie, so some Albanian families who name their child or children 'illyrian' are illyrians, while the ones who don't arn't illyrian?
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