ivo
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Post by ivo on Nov 4, 2009 13:17:18 GMT -5
Donnie, once again.. great observations.
Yes, German scholars have heavily supported the fact that Old Bulgarian and Old Church Slavonic can be used as synonyms to refer to the same thing.
Yes, today it is more ‘fashionable’ to call it Old Church Slavonic rather than Old Bulgarian. However, the reason for that is that Bulgaria is an economically weak state in comparison to some other Slavic speaking states. It is not difficult to see why states like Serbia or Russia for example would be more inclined to prefer the term Old Church Slavonic.
The choice of terminology is based on politics, if the borders of San Stefano Bulgaria stood today.. it is very likely that the term Old Bulgarian would still be in fashion today.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Nov 4, 2009 15:33:16 GMT -5
Zanimljivo pitanje (iz prvog posta). Verovatno su bili jako slicni. Posto su Bugari preuzeli jezik od Slovena (svi znamo da Bugari originalno nisu Sloveni) ostaje pitanje da li su ga preuzeli od Rusa ili Srba. Verovatno i od jednih i od drugih jer je Bugarski takoreci mesavina Ruskog i (staro)Srpskog (Torlak narecja) jezika.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 4, 2009 19:02:22 GMT -5
lol Asen & Ioan are giving a shout out to Donnie as if he's said something in support of the term Old Bulgarian when he hasn't.
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Post by Pavel Chernev on Nov 4, 2009 19:07:30 GMT -5
The great peoples of Bulgaria and Serbija share a very similiar language, one of the oldest in Europe as well as the most beautiful.
Pozdrav ot Sofie, Pavel Chernev.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 10, 2009 5:10:24 GMT -5
Probably not identical, but closer than today probably. And yes, Bulgarian did have a case system, and remnants of it are still there, like the vocative case. When was it lost? It was probably a gradual process, and it must've occured after the writing down of Old Church Slavonic which exhibits a very conservative grammar that was heavily inflected. Why? Well, it is generally believed that proto-Indoeuropean was a highly inflected language with some eight or possibly nine cases. All languages descending from this hypothetical language have reduced this number of cases since the split, some more than others. Generally speaking, although there are cases of the opposite occuring, languages seek grammatical simplification. Thus, Latin is grammatically more inflected and complex than any of its daughters. In the case of Latin, sound changes resulted in the loss of the case system. To take as an example the Latin word for 'earth'. which is 'terra' in the nominative, becomes 'terrá' in the fifth case (ablative), pronounced with a long 'a'. With the loss of long vowels in Vulgar Latin's later history, cases like the above ablative in Class I were hard to sustain, and a shift from a synthetic to analytic language emerged ... word order was now crucial, which it never was in Latin. Donnie, no offense, you managed to fill entire paragraphs, without saying anything at all. Languages do not get only more simplistic or only more complicated by principle, as a monotonous function. They follow the same pattern as any other human development. They tend to follow the theory of Entropia. When effort is being put on some human work-construct, then there is a tendency to make this work more useful and with more features by enhancing its core ingredients, rather than built up on already bloated constructs which would make future development harder(analytical approach) Both Bulgarian and Greek suffer from this... Modern Greek is like a stupid disgrace when compared to the Ancient version. The use of the case system serves this fundamental simplicity, putting the weight of the power of the language on the atomic, primitive types, and allow more expressiveness there, rather than built a language with easy atomic, primitive types, which would make harder and more expensive the formation of full sentences. Its like in Computer Languages: Basic VS C Basic is easy to learn, but has limited potential, while C is more hard to learn but you can write a very simple text processor in 2-3 lines. In "Autoputem prolaze" definitely "Autoputem" is more complex as an atomic element than its bulgarian "Autop't", but on the contrary "Autoputem prolaze" is more simple than "Prolaze ot Autoput". Languages only become richer and more expressive but difficult to learn when they are targeted against a literate and advanced population (Ancient Greeks, Serbs, Slavs) while they get less expressive but easy to learn when they are targeted towards alien or illiterate populations destined to form the low level working subclass. Latin and English, having been the languages of Empires, had to get simpler, in order to be able to be understood by the nations on their colonies. Greek wetn through a similar process with the "Alexandrine" language of the Makedonian Kingdom, which was targeted not only to Greeks but to the peoples of the east as well, which later was adopted by the first christian Church. The way that Indian captains or officers talk English to each other (and their wifes) is a blatant proof of what happens when a language becomes a tool regardless ethnicity.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 10, 2009 5:25:08 GMT -5
And a question to the Bulgarians here: I saw over at History Channel (i think) a program "НА КРАЙ СВЕТА", isnt "СВЕТА" Genitive case?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 13, 2009 3:09:30 GMT -5
Just bringing this up in order for some bulgarian to answer my (easy) question.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 13, 2009 4:25:35 GMT -5
I dont know but NA KRAY SVETA is the right way to say at the end of the world. Everyone (Moeasian, Thracian, Macedonian, Torlakian, Shop etc. in every corner of Bulgaria or in the former Bulgarian lands) is saying it in this way!!!!
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 13, 2009 4:43:13 GMT -5
I dont know but NA KRAY SVETA is the right way to say at the end of the world. Everyone (Moeasian, Thracian, Macedonian, Torlakian, Shop etc. in every corner of Bulgaria or in the former Bulgarian lands) is saying it in this way!!!! Man, thats what i wrote as well, so stop being a child and rewrite what i wrote in cirilic to latin, portraying it as the correct way. Now, taking into account that in Bulgarian World= свят,the question is, "IS СВЕТА Genitive"? Can't you answer this simple question? PS The fact, that about 400 million slavs (25,000,000) being right next to your door, use the word "SVETA" as the genitive of SVET (or Svijet) is already known... PS2 You are desperately calling to torlaks, to hide your own SERBIAN past maybe? I REPEAT the question; IS IT GENITIVE OR NOT? If Ioan cannot answer, this, is there any other decent Bulgarian man (or woman) here who can?
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Post by rusebg on Nov 13, 2009 5:53:24 GMT -5
Pyrro, stop posting bollocks. This is a basic rule in Bulgarian. Thousand of words change from 'ya' into 'e' when they get the definite case. Svyat turns into sveta (the world) byal becomes beliya (the white) zryal becomes zreliya (the ripened or the matured) tsyal becomes tseliya (the whole) and so on and so forth.
Told you, discuss on something when you have a clue about it.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 13, 2009 6:51:15 GMT -5
Ok, Ruse, you never demonstrated any signs of adequate intelligence, so i know i am asking too much, but is it so hard for anyone to understand that my point here is not how svYAt turns to svEta, but how svyat turns to svetA
And no, Ruse, if i had a clue, i would not ask... thats why i ask.. the issue is not why i dont have a clue, or why i ask, but rather, WHY the funk, does it take ages for some semi-descent Bulgarian to answer this simple question.
So, does the A in svetA, denote possession? Is it Genitive? PS Dear Ruse, there is not such thing as "definite case" as you noted.
So? is there any Bulgarian out there with the ability to communicate with other adult human beings?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 13, 2009 6:55:48 GMT -5
Or in other words, does this "A", added as a suffix to Svyat(or Svet western of the yat line), breaks the infamous saying about Bulgarian lacking inflections? Discuss!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 13, 2009 8:38:26 GMT -5
sveTA means THE world in other words its a definite article which is postfixed to the noun. I thought you were that clever to get it but obviouslly not. Definiteness (article) In modern Bulgarian, definiteness is expressed by a definite article which is postfixed to the noun, much like in the Scandinavian languages or Romanian (indefinite: ÷îâåê, "person"; definite: ÷îâåêúò, "the person") or to the first nominal constituent of definite noun phrases (indefinite: äîáúð ÷îâåê, "a good person"; definite: äîáðèÿò ÷îâåê, "the good person"). There are four singular definite articles. Again, the choice between them is largely determined by the noun's ending in the singular.[9] Nouns that end in a consonant and are masculine use –úò/–ÿò, when they are grammatical subjects, and –à/–ÿ elsewhere (all four endings are normally pronounced [ə]). Nouns that end in a consonant and are feminine, as well as nouns that end in –à/–ÿ (most of which are feminine, too) use –òà. Nouns that end in –å/–î use –òî.
The plural definite article is –òå for all nouns except for those, whose plural form ends in –à/–ÿ; these get –òa instead. When postfixed to adjectives the definite articles are –ÿò/–ÿ for masculine gender (again, with the longer form being reserved for grammatical subjects), –òà for feminine gender, –òî for neuter gender, and –òå for plural.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 13, 2009 8:44:46 GMT -5
So in short, SVETA IS NOT Genitive!!!! Its definite article. Gentive in Bulgarian is mainly expressed only with the preposition "ÍÀ" or "NA" (English). There is no change of the word. So the Gentive here is "NA" not svetA In other words, no, svetA does not denote possession!!!! The posession is expressed with simple preposition "ÍÀ".
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 13, 2009 8:51:15 GMT -5
Na means of in English
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 13, 2009 8:55:25 GMT -5
Thanx man! that was a proper explanation (letting the usual personal ranting aside!). Anyways, i asked my wife, while watching this, and she said that the Serbian version would be "Na Kraju SvetA/SvijetA" (where A means "of the"=genitive) pretty similar end result, dont you think? ;D
BTW, in НИШ, when they say i am from Nis they say "Ја сам из Ниша", and this A is the genitive case of an "imenica muskog roda". BTW, in Nis, they never heard of any definite article. ;D
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 13, 2009 8:59:19 GMT -5
yes BUT it is not GENTIVE!!!!! They mean gramatically 2 different things!
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Post by rusebg on Nov 13, 2009 17:24:31 GMT -5
Pyrro, in Gentive or not, jebem ti broj kuci. You are extremely silly.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 14, 2009 15:55:53 GMT -5
ruse, after 2054 posts, still failing to say smth semi-clever... ahhh Ruse ruse... why dont you give it up?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 15, 2009 0:12:21 GMT -5
you guys are complete idiots? What vlahs are you talking about? who?
Also, how do you explain the fact that the supposed evolution happened violently in 100-200 years, between 1200-1300 and 1400?
"Plus, all the languages have an evolution that tends to simplify them "
So you mean, that the neaterdals or homo sapiens or the Dinosaurds had like over 20 cases right?
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