gavrilo
Amicus
Vi ste svi banane
Posts: 840
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Post by gavrilo on Oct 28, 2009 13:06:46 GMT -5
ioan explained the situation to me briefly in the serbian forum, but i thought that this would be more appropriate considering that it is a bulgarian topic. first off, how are the relations between pomaks and orthodox bulgarians? what about pomaks and turks? also, ioan mentioned that there are 10percent turks in bulgaria? wow that is a high number. is the poulace scattered?
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Oct 28, 2009 14:03:58 GMT -5
My personal oppinion: the relations between the 3 groups are fine. Pomaks as a whole consider they are islamised Bulgarians, some think they are Turks, some that they are just Pomaks, not related to Bulgarians and Turks. As a whole, some just took up christian names and become totally bulgarized - mainly the youngsters. In certain areas they live quite isolated - Ribnovo. Some Pomaks are religious. The Turks are good people. They live mainly in the northeast and southeast of Bulgaria. They are hardworking, but certain political parties try to manipulate them. Most are not religious.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 28, 2009 16:14:53 GMT -5
These about 10 % include Pomaks as well. Pomaks are very confused people. Some of them live in isolated mountain areas and are somewhat still in the 19th century in terms of mentality. No wonder most of the young Pomaks are just looking for a way to get out of these villages and move to bigger towns and cities in order to live like modern people. The most interesting part about Pomaks is if you ask them about their identity. Some will answer Bulgarians, some Turks, but most will probably answer Muslims. Some will say they are not Turks because they don't speak Turkish at all, some will say they are not Bulgarians because they are not Christians...go figure.
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Post by Ivanov on Oct 28, 2009 16:21:27 GMT -5
And some say they are Thracians
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Post by rusebg on Oct 28, 2009 16:25:43 GMT -5
lol ;D
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 28, 2009 19:32:36 GMT -5
Wikipedia has an article on Pomaks and even a map en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PomaksEthnographic map of European Turkey from the late 19th. century, showing the regions largely populated by Pomaks in brown. (Turks=Red)
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 28, 2009 19:35:22 GMT -5
from the site "Since the start of the 20th century the Pomaks in Bulgaria were the subject of state-supported assimilation which included the change of their Turkish-Arabic names to ethnic Bulgarian ones and conversions from Islam to Eastern Orthodoxy. The Bulgarian state redefined the Pomaks as ancestral Bulgarians who therefore needed to be repatriated back to the Bulgarian national domain. These attempts were met with stiff resistance by the Pomaks.[16]"
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 28, 2009 19:37:42 GMT -5
Alternative origin theories
A specific DNA mutation which emerged about 2,000 years ago on a rare haplotype is characteristic of the Pomaks. Its frequency increased as a consequence of high genetic drift within this population. This indicates that the Pomaks are an isolated population with limited contacts with their neighbours. The DNA tree line of Pomaks suggests the hypothesis that Pomaks are descendants of ancient Thracian tribes.[30][31]
According some historians some of the Pomaks in the Rhodope Mountains are successors of the Cumans that converted to Islam in the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 12th century after establishing contact with missionaries from North Africa and the Middle East.[32] This theory is further backed by the fact that in the 9th century many Muslims moved from Bulgaria to Hungary and were ordered expelled by Pope Nicholas I in 866, yet enjoyed many freedoms and were even allowed to serve in the military and in border guard units during the 11th and 12th century. Many researchers are of the opinion that these were Cumans or Pechenegs.[33]
Another view, especially popular among the Pomaks themselves,[34] is that they are descendants of Thraco-Slavs or pre-Islamic Arab migrants to the Balkans who were converted to Islam by Arab missionaries. This theory is supported by comments of 9th century Christian missionaries in the area about occasional distribution of religious literature by some Islamic missionaries.[35] There are also reports of Muslims migrating from medieval Bulgaria to Hungary, and there is evidence of Arab raids into the peninsula from the 7th century on.[36]
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gavrilo
Amicus
Vi ste svi banane
Posts: 840
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Post by gavrilo on Oct 28, 2009 23:57:49 GMT -5
it seems that the pomaks have some similarities with the gorani in kosovo...another question that popped up in my head is the pomaks growth rate. has there been a large increase in the relative percentages of pomaks? under the assumption that muslims ( ie kosovo albanians) outnumbering the growth of serbs?
re-christianization...sounds like our orthodox version of the reconquista...lol
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Post by rusebg on Oct 29, 2009 2:31:59 GMT -5
And how comes that these ancient Thracian tribes speak the purest form possible of Bulgarian, with remnants of the case system and without any Turkish or Greek loan words as in standard Bulgarian?
With the small difference that they moved from Volga Bulgaria and at that time (9th century) Hungary was not where it is now. Cool theory, though. With a high flight of imagination. I like the idea of mountain-living Cumans as well.
The Arab raids I know took place in the 70s of the 7th century when they were defeated by Byzantium and later the 717-718 war, when Khan Tervel completely destroyed the arab army, killing between 22 000 - 30 000 according to different sources. So it doesn't sound very probable Arabs managed to spread some literature among the local population somewhere in the Rhodopes, does it?
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Oct 29, 2009 3:45:17 GMT -5
All those "teory" sounds like a science fiction. The truth is they are Bulgarians who were islamised.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 29, 2009 6:51:39 GMT -5
BULGARIA: A Way to Manufacture Ethnic Tension SOFIA -- Take a population frustrated by poverty and corruption. Add the anti-minority discourse of extreme-right parties. And spice it with anti-Islamic talk of the ´war on terror´. And in just a few years, you can have enough ethnic tensions. By Claudia Ciobanu, IPS On Mar. 11, a mosque in Dobrich town in north-east Bulgaria, 30 km from the Black Sea coast, had to be temporarily closed because of a bomb threat. "The bomb is to be detonated to kill Turks and gypsies," said an anonymous caller. On Feb. 16, graffiti saying "Turks, die" was found at the entry to the Office of the Grand Mufti (supreme interpreter of Islamic law) of Bulgaria. "These acts disturb us," Grand Mufti Mustafa Alish Hadzi said in a statement. "Our anxiety is heightened by the fact that mosques, schools and other buildings related to our religion are desecrated almost every month." Turks represent about 9.5 percent of the 7.8 million population of Bulgaria. They live mostly in the north-east and south-east of the country. Turks began to settle in the region from the late 14th century when the Ottoman Empire started to build up its domination of the Balkans. Turks were persecuted severely during the Communist regime (1946-1989). They were forced to deny their identity, change their names to Slavic ones and even made to leave en masse for Turkey. After 1989, however, Bulgarians were keen to end this heritage of persecution. In the first few years after the regime change, many of the rights of Turks were restored, such as education in their native language, freedom to celebrate their holidays, and the right to participate in political life. The Constitution of 1991 does not acknowledge the existence of ethnic minorities, but various legislative acts adopted since refer to the rights of groups other than the majority. In 1999, Bulgaria ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, and the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, with both acts having priority over national legislation. In the 1990s, Bulgaria was considered an oasis of ethnic peace in the troubled Balkans. One reason was that the Movement for Rights and Freedoms (MRF) was a coalition partner in three goverments. MRF is widely seen as representing Turks, although MRF itself fights this label, and the Constitution does not allow ethnically based parties. A study in 1999 by the Centre for Documentation and Information on Europe-South-Eastern Europe in association with the Helsinki Committee concluded that Turks in Bulgaria are well integrated and that "anti-Turkish feelings in the country do not run high." But researchers did warn that deterioration of economic conditions and the use of minorities as scapegoats by politicians could threaten peaceful multi-ethnic co-existence in Bulgaria. Half a decade later, such bleak predictions started to come true. Incidents like the one at the mosque in Dobrich and at the Office of the Grand Mufti have become frequent over the last few years. Marko Hajdinjak from the International Centre for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations in Sofia (IMIR) told IPS that the main reason for the rise in anti-Turkish feeling is frustration. "There has been growing disappointment, first over the (ex-king) Simeon government (2001-2005). There were high hopes linked with it, which came to nothing. Then there was this totally illogical belief that after Bulgaria enters NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation), life will improve magically, although there is no connection. And then, nothing much improved after EU accession." Political scientist Rossen Vassilev, who has been studying Bulgaria´s ethnic problems, says frustrations were accentuated by the toughening of economic conditions "stemming from or coinciding with" the country´s entry into the European Union (EU) on Jan. 1, 2007. "Since then, retail prices have skyrocketed, while average salaries and pensions have remained basically unchanged, placing Bulgaria at the very bottom of the EU in terms of economic well-being." "People are looking for a scapegoat, and minorities are always a convenient one," Marko Hajdinjak says, emphasising that the group most responsible for promoting anti-Turkish discourse was the extreme-right party Ataka formed in 2005. A further reason for antipathy towards Turks, often invoked by Bulgarians, is a perception of corruption among MRF members. "Since MRF is an important part of the government coalition," Rossen Vassilev told IPS, "it is being blamed for the country´s economic conditions and for the government´s seeming tolerance of and even involvement in the horrendous level of official graft and corruption." While most Bulgarians agree that all parties are corrupt, MRF cannot really be punished by the electorate because there is no other party representing minorities. The rise in anti-Turkish sentiment is further linked to the ´war on terror´, says Marko Hajdinjak, since the media has been bombarding audiences with the message that Islam equals terrorism. "Not that this is something that excuses Bulgarians, but it is happening all over Europe." Researchers say anti-Turkish views are most common among youth in urban centres like Sofia, inhabited by relatively few Turks. Lacking the experience of daily cohabitation with ethnic Turks, these Bulgarians are most vulnerable to the negative propaganda of the extremists. www.galdu.org/web/index.php?odas=2642&giella1=eng
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Post by rusebg on Oct 29, 2009 7:28:43 GMT -5
A very one-sided article that doesn't take into account the vast corruption in DPS (MRF), the anti-bulgarian and pro-turkish statements by Turkish leaders, voting frauds performed every election with the votes of the Bulgarian Turks, Islamic campaigns in the areas populated by Turks and Pomaks, etc.
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Rhezus
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DERZA STURIA TRAUS
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 30, 2009 6:14:36 GMT -5
@ Ruse
Didn't you know that the Thracians merged with the slavs and that's the reason why slavonic is the langueage used. Slavs are non-Bulgars, who brought the language here. On the contrary Bulgarian language is turkic and nobody speaks it in today Bulgaria. That's why, this lang is slavonic!
@ Ivanov
Wrong! Most of the "Bulgarians" have Thracian descent, the domestic one! Pomacs included.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 30, 2009 6:22:35 GMT -5
Bulgarian language is Bulgarian. Wipe the foam from your mouth.
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Rhezus
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DERZA STURIA TRAUS
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 30, 2009 6:43:05 GMT -5
Bulgarian language is slavonic, that means non turkic. Neither are we any turkics in Bulgaia (that name feels just so fvcking wrong)! Same as the famous BG one: saying "yes", when shaking your head for "no". So typical.. staying on the lime light like this, full of paradoxes. Change that stupid habitat!
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Post by rusebg on Oct 30, 2009 7:04:33 GMT -5
You don't live here, why bother?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 30, 2009 8:24:36 GMT -5
Pomaks are very confused people. It must be confusing to live side by side with the confused peoples like Danube Bulgarians.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 30, 2009 8:50:19 GMT -5
Where have you been, Tartary? I've been missing your wit.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 30, 2009 8:59:04 GMT -5
Where have you been, Tartary? I've been missing your wit. Have been busy at work and at home. ;D I miss you too. ;D
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