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Post by vinjak on Jun 9, 2009 17:38:53 GMT -5
You Serbs tend to ignore arguments that go against you. Its a repeated pattern. All I said was that the fact that the Constitution did not provide Serbia with the right to send troops and tanks into the other republics is a crucial factor that led to the whole mess that came after it. Not only it went against the constitution but against international law as well, which as I pointed out is very hypocritical (to say the least) when having in mind how much of a staunch defender of international law Serbia claims to be.
Where it all started Slovenia
The succesion violated article 5 of the constitution, article 5 regulated the state boarders. What it stated was that borders could not be changed without all the republics and autonomous provinces agreeing to the changes. This means that nobody could leave the federation unless everybody in the country was in agreement.
The Socialist Yugoslav republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Macedonia) did not have the right to secede because the Socialist Yugoslav republics did not belong to the individual Yugoslav peoples. For example, Bosnia was defined by its constitution as an equal state of Serbs, Croats and Muslims and Croatia was a state of Croats and Serbs.
If you remember after anoucing its succesion Slovenia erazed all of its minority identitys and pronounced them all Slovenes because of the constitution in an effort to make it legal.
The JNA's mandate was to secure borders of Jugoslavia and if you knew the background you would have known that, 75% of Jug federal budget was appropriated by Slovenia when it siezed control of the boarder and customs posts.
The Jugoslav Government ordered the JNA to retake control of the state border in Slovenia.
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Post by radovic on Jun 9, 2009 17:45:12 GMT -5
^ Also why references to Croatia as being the state of Croats and Serbs in Croatia was removed in the post-communist constitution before secession.
Vinjak you forgot a crucial fact. The operations in JNA were so "Serb" (as anti-Serbs love to claim) that barely a third of the troops taking part for the JNA were Serb or Montenegrin.
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Post by leshte on Jun 9, 2009 20:32:03 GMT -5
Vinjak you still didn't answer the question. While nobody could change the borders according to the constitution, there was also no provision there that gave special privileges to the Republic of Serbia to be border police and move the army and military personnel to the other Republics and make them stay as part of the Federation by force. As a matter of fact the constitution did not make such a provision for any other republic. This is precisely what made things go horribly wrong. You had most of the Republics wanting to secede and you have Serbia strangely claiming it had the right to forcefully stop that by sending its army to the other republics. I don't know what documents the Serbs are referring to when the claim they have such rights. There's no legal document to back your claims.
Radovic- the tanks and army moved from Serbia to the other Republics not the other way around. Stop with the excuses.
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Post by radovic on Jun 9, 2009 20:52:36 GMT -5
Vinjak you still didn't answer the question. While nobody could change the borders according to the constitution, there was also no provision there that gave special privileges to the Republic of Serbia to be border police and move the army and military personnel to the other Republics and make them stay as part of the Federation by force. As a matter of fact the constitution did not make such a provision for any other republic. This is precisely what made things go horribly wrong. You had most of the Republics wanting to secede and you have Serbia strangely claiming it had the right to forcefully stop that by sending its army to the other republics. I don't know what documents the Serbs are referring to when the claim they have such rights. There's no legal document to back your claims. Serbia did no such thing. 1. The army was not in Serbia's control. 2. Everything army was doing was done due to orders made by the federal presidency prior to the war. 3. 90% of the tanks and so forth used were already present in Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia [the only majopr movement of equipment to Serbia to anywhere was to the Slavonia region]. 4. I don't know where you get these border police bullshit from. Given that by the time the war started Slovenia and Croatia were already setting up their own customs services. 5. Serbian TDF (at the time the so-called "Serbian army" you refer to didn't cross into any of the republics). 6. What docuemnts? Federal Presidency orders to the JNA made from December of 1990 - April of 1991 <-- all done while Croatia and Slovenia were attending. These orders called for the JNA to disarm all illegal paramilitary formations and to seize weapons. The tanks were already their. The only area any tanks form Serbia moved to was to areas of Slavonia in Croatia. And even if the tanks were moved their their was a 80% draft dodging rate in Serbia. I suggest you read the book The Myth of Ethnic Conflict: Serbia and Croatia in the 1990s before you make bullshit claims.
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Post by leshte on Jun 9, 2009 20:56:35 GMT -5
So Serbia had no faults for the starting and during the war?
I remember buildings with civilians inside being bombed in Croatia; not in Serbia. Something is not right with the picture you are trying to paint.
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Fender
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Post by Fender on Jun 9, 2009 21:45:54 GMT -5
So Serbia had no faults for the starting and during the war? I remember buildings with civilians inside being bombed in Croatia; not in Serbia. Something is not right with the picture you are trying to paint. After reading your posts, you are proof positive that all your information has come from tainted western media. You truly have no idea, do you.
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Post by vinjak on Jun 9, 2009 22:22:12 GMT -5
While nobody could change the borders according to the constitution, there was also no provision there that gave special privileges to the Republic of Serbia to be border police and move the army and military personnel to the other Republics and make them stay as part of the Federation by force.The JNA acted on the authority of the Jugoslav government not Serbia read a little and find out who was in the government it will suprise you which reps raised there hands to send in the JNA, and you will understand. I already told you that 75% of the Jug budget was entering and leaving throgh the customs posts in Slovenia which was owned by Jug. And Slovenia seized those posts any fed would send in its army to regain control and disarm para militarys. You cannot just raise your hands as a republik and say ok guys we have had enough seeya oh and by the way your country's borders are now changed and guess what we now control all imports and exports etc There was a lot to sort out before opting out of the union...I cannot believe you cannot understand this. An example is this, Lets say 75% of kosovo's budget rellied on the custom posts that were dismantled by KSerbs I guarantee you the Kosovo military forces would move to regain and reopen the points. Now lets say also military bases were in Mitrovica and were seized by the KSerbs Tank's would roll from all parts of Kosovo to disarm the KSerbs and regain control of the bases and weapons. What is not to understand ? A simplistic comparison I agree, but I think you can understand. Or are you gonna play the oompa loompa and say Kosovo Albanians would have just raised there hands and went ok guys you can go I remember buildings with civilians inside being bombed in Croatia; not in Serbia.Now you are jumping you asked a question about the constitution in the beginning of the crises or in your words "that started the whole mess" not what was done in the war.
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Post by leshte on Jun 9, 2009 23:39:45 GMT -5
Vinjak I find it very hard to believe that as some of you say the Serbs that only counted for 1/3 of the military personnel and from what you say decisions being made from the Federal government personnel that were not Serb( so I will assume they were Croatians, Slovenians and Bosnians) gave orders to 2/3 of the military personnel of JNA (who were Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians) to bomb the hell out of their own countries (meaning Croatia, Bosnia or Slovenia) but at all costs spare Serbia. And all this bombing went unquestioned by those in the field who were bombing their own homes and killing their own cousins. There is something completely wrong and illogical with this. This is why I brought the example of buildings full of civilians being bombed in Croatia. Western media or not I have yet to see evidence that such things were happening in Serbia, meaning JNA bombing Serbia. Thus if JNA bombs all the other Republics but Serbia, then its not hard to figure that Serbia controled JNA.
Also If Slovenia controlled all the import and export of Jugoslavia through its customs how come then only Serbia entered the conflict. How come then Serbia later entered the conflict with Croatia and Bosnia. See there is a pattern with Serbia throughout the 90's. There is no Republic in former Jugoslavia that went to war with the other Republics ( and not only 1 republic but several of them). My opinion, which I am sure is not of any value to any of you guys, is that you have a problem admitting the wrongs your country committed based on this absurd notion that Serbia is entitled unlike the other former republics.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 9, 2009 23:50:27 GMT -5
You still haven't explained why the JNA withdrew from Slovenia, Krajina and Bosnia in the initial stages of all 3 conflicts.
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Post by leshte on Jun 10, 2009 0:00:39 GMT -5
I didn't know you asked that to me. I'd be interested to know that too; even though I haven't heard of this before. Any non-Serb care to give their point of view since I'm sure we'll hear the Serbian version.
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Anthologic
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Post by Anthologic on Jun 10, 2009 0:13:07 GMT -5
Is that what your basing your opinion on?
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Post by leshte on Jun 10, 2009 0:18:37 GMT -5
I wanna hear all sides of the story since I am not familiar with what Zadnji brought up. Hear all sides then make up my mind; nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jun 10, 2009 0:35:51 GMT -5
WHAT? You're presenting yourself as an expert on the JNA and you didn't know this? The reason why the war in Slovenia is called the 10 Day War is because the JNA withdrew in 10 days after it failed/refused to engage the traitors there (though the same can't be said for the cowardly TORS). The JNA in Krajina withdrew immediately before the end of the Battle of Vukovar (that is to say that the Serbian/Macedonian contingent of the JNA withdrew from Krajina since the Montenegrin contingent more or less stayed in Dalmatia). The JNA in Bosnia withdrew as soon as the conflict started there (but were ambushed in Tuzla and other places by Muslim forces for purely sadistic reasons).
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Post by insomniac on Jun 10, 2009 0:45:42 GMT -5
Vinjak I find it very hard to believe that as some of you say the Serbs that only counted for 1/3 of the military personnel and from what you say decisions being made from the Federal government personnel that were not Serb( so I will assume they were Croatians, Slovenians and Bosnians) gave orders to 2/3 of the military personnel of JNA (who were Bosnians, Croats and Slovenians) to bomb the hell out of their own countries (meaning Croatia, Bosnia or Slovenia) but at all costs spare Serbia. And all this bombing went unquestioned by those in the field who were bombing their own homes and killing their own cousins. There is something completely wrong and illogical with this.. I think this is the answer..."During the early stages of the Yugoslav wars, and in general during the breakup of Yugoslavia, there was a great sense of confusion and concern as to the role that would be played by the Yugoslav People's Army. Due to the fact that roughly 60% of the JNA's upper leadership was ethnically Serbian[citation needed], when war broke out in Croatia in 1991 (Croatian War of Independence), the Croatians increasingly treated the JNA as a hostile force. During the Battle of Vukovar, the JNA's diverse ethnic composition of lower fighting units with no real stake or interest in the war in Croatia led to instances of desertion and confusion in the area. This was primarily caused by a lack of understanding as to where they stood with both the Croatian defence forces and the Serbian paramilitary units who were promoting a purely Serbian agenda in Eastern Slavonia. The morale in parts of the JNA became very low as the war intensified. On September 29, 1991, the navy admiral Vladimir Baroviæ committed suicide while stationed at the Vis naval base, leaving a suicide letter which stated that he could not reconcile his feeling of honor as a Montenegrin with the aggression of JNA against Croatia.[citation needed] At the beginning of war in Croatia, JNA targeted civilians[2], killing three children near auto-camp Grabovac at Plitvice Lakes. By the end of 1991, when both Slovenia and Croatia had practically seceded, JNA was crippled as a joint army of the SFRY, and was deprived of its basic fundamentals as a fighting force. Further complications arose when Republic of Macedonia and Bosnia declared their independence and an already unpopular war caused conscription levels in Serbia to drop to only 13% of what was required to maintain a functioning army. Many in Macedonia or Bosnia and Herzegovina felt that the war was none of their concern and that their people should not have anything to do with the conflicts developing in the region. By mid-1992, war spread to Bosnia. Serbia and Montenegro now being the sole union, replacing SFR Yugoslavia with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, for legality reasons decided that it was best to wash their hands of the conflicts which were occurring in nearby nations. The decision was made to abolish the JNA.""
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Post by SKORIC on Jun 10, 2009 0:48:42 GMT -5
About the 10 day war. Here's a map of JNA operations in Slovenia. None of the JNA movements came from Serbia. Most started from inside Slovenia itself.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jun 10, 2009 0:59:57 GMT -5
I wanna hear all sides of the story since I am not familiar with what Zadnji brought up. Hear all sides then make up my mind; nothing wrong with that. Dude. Listen. You're not looking at the bigger picture here. Put down whatever propaganda piece you're looking at and read closely. The Yugoslav Civil Wars were wars with more than 13 sides fighting the war, which are as follows; JNA TO (Slo/Cro/BiH) SV HV HVO ABiH VSK VRS VJ ARM KLA NLA UCPMB You cannot say that the Serbs were the ones at total fault, and that it was them that "invaded" the others. You have to take a look at the factors and see the bigger picture of it. The Tensions rose due to Titos death, the Political Instability, and the crumbling Economy (not to mention Crumbling USSR, a Communist State). With that, you had an irritated nation, looking for any excuse to do anything to fix the problems. (I cite the same problem in Wiemar Germany) Kosovo sparked some Serbs, and Serb leaderships to become aware of the situation in Kosovo (Economy, Socio-Political Spectrum of Problems). Due to the immense Economic Burder Kosovo was bringing, it was stalling the economy further, not to mention the debt, and mismanagement of centralization since Tito's death; the Slovenes and the Croats didn't want to pay, so wanted a looser Confederation so they could impose their own economic laws. Then you take in the factor that due to the Albanian Nationalism grows in Kosovo (Practically protesting for Republic status), Serb Nationalism grew from the fear of division (further division). Serbs began exerting their prowess they held. Milosevic was an opportunist, and took this opportunity to "Unite" Yugoslavia and make himself look like 2nd Tito. Then you have a Serb violently taking over the Presidency (Milosevic), so the Croats and Slovenes want no more of this. Slovene Commies walk out on the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and the Communist Congress, thereby warning everyone of their intentions. Croats threaten to do the same. Meanwhile you have BiH, a ticking time bomb, with tension fuming due to it being in the center, and being industrialized with the most important aspects of the Defense Industry being there. Armed to the teeth. The Slovenes and Croats elect nationalist parties to office. Serbs in Croatia feel threatened, and with Belgrade pumping propaganda 24/7 and the Croats hitting back with the same thing, the Serbs fear of the repeat of WW2. With that being said.. the clock is ticking, and one wrong move would cause a massive implosion of the nation, and cause major Social Upheaval and Civil Strife. That one thing, was called Milan Kucan. When he announced that Slovenia was succeeding from Yugoslavia and Declaring independence, Yugoslavia was dead that very day, and there was no bringing it back. Slovenia did it illegally, according to Section 5 of the Yugoslav Constitution (Which I believe Vinjak already explained to you). From then on, it was all a domino effect. It was not the Serbs fault, or the Croats, or Slovenes, or Bosnian Muslims (As they were known), or Albanians, or Macedonians... it was just the set of circumstances that were made worse by the irresponsibility of each sides leaders, as well as Yugoslavia's Political Elite. Understand a little bit more now?
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Post by leshte on Jun 10, 2009 1:12:34 GMT -5
Zadnji nowhere in this forum have I claimed that I am an expert on JNA or on Serbian matters for that matter. The reason is simple. The opinions I express in here do not pay my bills and have nothing to do with my profession or my education for that matter. Having said that, this is a forum and in a forum people express opinions. These opinions are not to be liked by everyone or meant to matter or be important to everyone. Hence take a chill pill; seriously you and Pyrros should consider that. Your aggressiveness on this forums not only does not scare anyone nor it accomplishes what you try to, as people tend to skip posts written by people who appear to be always angry. On 99% of things I don't agree with either Skoric or Vinjak like I don't agree with what you or Pyrros say. Difference with them is that they realize this is a forum and them expressing anger through a keyboard all the time in this forum doesn't make them more convincing. What makes their post interesting even for someone who disagrees with 99% of their opinions is their ability to present their opinions in a calm manner. You should try that sometimes.
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Post by vinjak on Jun 10, 2009 1:14:25 GMT -5
Tanks rolled in from Rijeka Croatia on the first day then a 2nd unit moved in from Karlovac then a 3rd from Vrhinka in Slovenia , they took the airport. on the same day a unit from Maribor.
It wasnt until the 3rd day that the Slovenian members of the JNA deserted on mass this left the leadership not knowing what to do next.
on the 29th the JNA command issued a ultimatum to Slovenia to cease imediatley hostile operations the parliment voted for a peacful resolution to the crisis.
The Brioni acord ended the 10 day war and the JNA withdrew.
The whole problem With the Slovenia crises was that the JNA command itself was confused of what they should do one wanted a complete destruction of all parallel forces and government the other only wanted a show of force, the show of force won the day and JNA were given shoot if shot at orders. This allowed the OT to take advantage and with Guerilla type actions gain ground also the desertions left many units without officers etc which added to the confusion,played into the hands of the OT.
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Post by insomniac on Jun 10, 2009 1:17:31 GMT -5
It was not the Serbs fault, or the Croats, or Slovenes, or Bosnian Muslims (As they were known), or Albanians, or Macedonians... it was just the set of circumstances that were made worse by the irresponsibility of each sides leaders, as well as Yugoslavia's Political Elite.
MiG
Do you think the political arena influenced the army as well as a result? Meaning that what happened in politics was likely a reflection of what was going to happen to JNA.
Also, where there Croat or Bosniak loyalist to what was going on when the wars happened in Bosnia & Croatia? It seems to me that there were mass disertions and JNA by then was entirely ethnic Serb.
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Post by leshte on Jun 10, 2009 1:20:21 GMT -5
MiG while I dont agree with everything you state I agree with a lot of it. Of course as someone looking at it from the opposite side, I believe that at least when it comes to Kosova Serbia has a bigger fault than Albanians; when it comes to starting the conflict. I say that because I believe Serbia chose a completely wrong path when dealing with this issue.
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