donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Dec 9, 2009 20:35:38 GMT -5
Recently I've been reading Conn Iggulden's conquoror series, novels based on the life and deeds of Genghis Khan. Although a novel with many intentional errors, it still gives an idea of who the conquoror was and the rough environment he was born into and raised in. I've been somewhat intrigued by Mongolian culture ever since ... especially their music. Know this is really the wrong thread, but thought I'd share this with you guys;
Considering that Mongols and Huns used very similiar tactics and were completely composed by cavalry and the use of bows, I am inclined to believe that these steppe warriors were among if not the most vicious, most effective and strong force in history until modern firearms replaced ancient weapons.
I recommend these books to anyone intrigued by this fantastic people!
|
|
|
Post by insomniac on Dec 9, 2009 21:21:33 GMT -5
Very nice music.
I am currently busy with final exams although i would check out your books. I'm always fascinated about military history and tactics. I read briefly on the Mongolians on my geography and the Decimal system.
It's fascinating that such a few warrior people invaded half of Russia. And brought it down to its knees.
|
|
|
Post by epiroti on Dec 10, 2009 17:54:21 GMT -5
Genghis Khan was simply the Sun Tzu of the middle ages. His childhood and ambitions must have been extraordinary. You guys might think 'what a pointless comment', but he makes Julius Caesar look like an ordinary general.
Here is a great movie about him (2007), focusing on childhood and rise to power. I have read that another two parts are to follow.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Dec 10, 2009 18:01:34 GMT -5
I cant get into it... I love the violin part but once the voice comes in I just get thrown off.
I was reading an article a long while back. This deal with nomads in the classical age, particularly the Iranic Cimmerians/Scythians. The theory proposed by the writer was that in traditional societies the nomad had a very big advantage over the settled person. He was not so tied to the land and thus presented a terrifying mobile adversary in contrast to the farmer. This produced a large conflict between non-settled and settled people.
Many of the great conquering cultures were non-settled. Even the Persians at the onset of their empire were only just settled. Iranic groups were mostly nomadic horsemen culture then as well. Arameans also started out as nomadic raiders before becoming the lingua franca of the middle east. Arabs and Bedouin have also been ferocious particularly when they were more nomadic. Berbers as well.
|
|
PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
Amicus
It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
Posts: 3,681
|
Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Dec 10, 2009 18:26:14 GMT -5
Mongol means Monkey Mongol=Monkey
;D
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Dec 10, 2009 21:06:56 GMT -5
Well, these steppe warriors were some hardened people ... as elite as you get, since they learned fighting since childhood.
Genghis Khan is extraordinary as you say ,,, not just because he conquored more land than the Roman Empire or Alexander the Great ,,, but because when he was at the lowest, he and his immediate family were abandoned by thei own clansmen when he was twelve. They became tribeless and he was forced to live off the land. Quarrell led him to killing his half-brother Bekter, and even so he kept the family together ... from nothing, he managed to gather people around him, uniting tribe after tribe. Finally, when all of Mongolia was united, he turned to the Chinese whom he crushed in a devastating fashion. He didn't finish the conquest of China (his successors finished what he started) because the Shah of Kwarezm of Central Asia openly challenged him by killing his emissaries and so on ... he didn't know what he unleashed. If he didn't challenge Genghis, perhaps he'dbe known just as conquoror of China ,,, not a world conquoror.
Indeed. When gifted with a genius leader and united, they became unstoppable. They were basically taught since childhood to be tough men, to survive on limited food & water, endure hardships and extreme weather. And what made them so efficient was that they were mounted archers. Regular cavalry needs to make contact to force a victory ... these guys didn't even need that. They make hit and runs, shooting off shafts while retreating, never allowing enemy infantry to employ direct battle with them. Whatever cavalry that was sent against them stood little chance since they were born and bred riders. And so they would milk their enemies on their strength and morals ... and when time came, finish the job with lances and swords. This is a good reason I believe why the Romans couldn't subdue the Parthians ... Crassus was crushed at Carrhae by mounted archers.
|
|
|
Post by hellboy87 on Dec 11, 2009 10:46:03 GMT -5
but these men were savages donnie
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 13, 2009 2:15:45 GMT -5
I really dig the music. Genghis Khan was simply the Sun Tzu of the middle ages. His childhood and ambitions must have been extraordinary. You guys might think 'what a pointless comment', but he makes Julius Caesar look like an ordinary general. Here is a great movie about him (2007), focusing on childhood and rise to power. I have read that another two parts are to follow. This is a brilliant film as well
|
|
|
Post by EriTopSheqeri on Dec 13, 2009 3:51:47 GMT -5
but these men were savages donnie Who wasn't? It is sad that in Western schools it is taught very little about the (Genghis) Khan(s) and others, such as Timur Leng. Try mentioning to someone "Mongol Empire" and they will open their eyes wide.
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Dec 13, 2009 6:16:28 GMT -5
Nice video... thats how original Turks would about look, dress, live when they've came here...
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Dec 13, 2009 10:32:04 GMT -5
I believe this belongs in the Serb forum Donnie..
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Dec 13, 2009 10:42:13 GMT -5
Recently I've been reading Conn Iggulden's conquoror series, novels based on the life and deeds of Genghis Khan. Although a novel with many intentional errors, it still gives an idea of who the conquoror was and the rough environment he was born into and raised in. I've been somewhat intrigued by Mongolian culture ever since ... especially their music. Know this is really the wrong thread, but thought I'd share this with you guys; Considering that Mongols and Huns used very similiar tactics and were completely composed by cavalry and the use of bows, I am inclined to believe that these steppe warriors were among if not the most vicious, most effective and strong force in history until modern firearms replaced ancient weapons. I recommend these books to anyone intrigued by this fantastic people! Well, Europeans weren't used to fighting Horse archers like the Mongols and Huns. Europeans were used of hand to hand combat mostly and they couldn't kill them because of the hit and run tactics.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Dec 13, 2009 11:22:30 GMT -5
Recently I've been reading Conn Iggulden's conquoror series, novels based on the life and deeds of Genghis Khan. Although a novel with many intentional errors, it still gives an idea of who the conquoror was and the rough environment he was born into and raised in. I've been somewhat intrigued by Mongolian culture ever since ... especially their music. Know this is really the wrong thread, but thought I'd share this with you guys; Considering that Mongols and Huns used very similiar tactics and were completely composed by cavalry and the use of bows, I am inclined to believe that these steppe warriors were among if not the most vicious, most effective and strong force in history until modern firearms replaced ancient weapons. I recommend these books to anyone intrigued by this fantastic people! Well, Europeans weren't used to fighting Horse archers like the Mongols and Huns. Europeans were used of hand to hand combat mostly and they couldn't kill them because of the hit and run tactics. It's precisely because of their great ability to hit and run while inflicting heavy damages that made them such formidable enemies. It is also why I believe it was the most lethal force before the invention of firearms. The Roman army too was made an example of by mounted archers, as in Carrhae, and it is from there that we get the term "Parthian shot", meaning the ability to feint retreat and rotating your upper body to send shafts right into pursuing enemies. Even in defeat, such forces are lethal; emperor Julian won a battle against Sassanid Persians but was killed by an arrow fired by retreating rider. It took the Mamelukes who in many respects shared the same tactics with the Mongols, to put a stop to the Moingolian expansion. And I dont believe Europe really got to feel the full sting of the Mongolians who were stretched as it was ... Tsubodai, Genghis Khan's general and perhaps one of the greatest tacticians to have lived, only stopped his invasion in the west where he had defeated the Bolgars, Russians, Poles & Hungarians when he learned of the emperor's death (Ögedai, Genghis' son) ...
|
|
PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
Amicus
It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
Posts: 3,681
|
Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Dec 13, 2009 12:48:48 GMT -5
in that mamluk movie tamughin's father teaching his little son to married with that woman which have strong legs make man happy
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Dec 13, 2009 14:11:24 GMT -5
Emperor Julian died because he was too close to the action... he took part in a small military operation. Leaders should be smarter than that. Unfortunately the man aspired to be some kind of Alexander and paid for it. And although the Romans lost at Carrhea, the vast majority of wars that they fought with the Parthians were successful. However, as one scholar put it, the loss at Carrhea created the "illusion of Persia" as a threat.... when it really wasnt. Trajan was successful in breaking this and from his time until the Sassanids the Romans attacked Parthia when they pleased. The Romans themselves also used horse-archers though, particularly Sarmatians, from the steppes of Ukraine. And btw, the first major defeat for the Mongols was from the prince of Khwarazem, Jalal-al-Din en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Parwan
|
|
PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
Amicus
It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
Posts: 3,681
|
Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Dec 13, 2009 15:54:48 GMT -5
During ancient times there been discovered and found roman tribe that lived between Mongolia and China.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Dec 13, 2009 17:01:54 GMT -5
Exactly, and his forces were actually winning the skirmish when the retreating enemies fired off shafts or so called Parthian shots, injuring Julian who would die from the wound.
Yes, but it was only a temporary victory, it didn't stop the Mongol expansion. Jalal was soon defeated as well. The Mameluke victory under the command of Baibars however soundly defeated the Mongols and effectively put a stop to their expansion westward.
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 13, 2009 21:07:45 GMT -5
in that mamluk movie tamughin's father teaching his little son to married with that woman which have strong legs make man happy Ya I enjoyed that part as well
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Dec 20, 2009 14:35:36 GMT -5
Not Mongolian, but Swedish cattle-calling music, which I find very beautiful and magical. Thought it unnecessary to open a new thread on foreign folklor music, so I put it here. It's interesting to note that Scandinavians in general are not as ardent about their folklore and its preservation as the Balkans in general, and occasionally it feels like a western trait overall. One reason for it is because in later times, everything folklor related in SW has been monopolized by right-wing neo-nazi folkbands who used it effectively ... to the point where promoting it is occasionally deemed as a sign of racism by normal people so to speak. This and perhaps lack of interest in younger generations is my guess for the decline of this type of music ...
Interesting note; cattle-herders in Sweden were female, unlike the Balkans. Historically that shows the place wasn't as warlike ... in the Balkans, cattle-lifters were common and herding cattle could only be trusted to armed men (barinj). This must ultimately be the result of the centralized system which followed the union of Swedish lands under one king and the warlike tradition of seafaring Vikings died out.
|
|