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Post by hellboy87 on Dec 13, 2009 22:47:08 GMT -5
I'm talking about the Bosniaks,Croats and Serbs,are they one? As in one ethnic group that got split apart into ''distinct'' groups due to religion,because they are a religious bunch? the whole tito thing got me thinking.He said Croats and Serbs are originally Bosniaks and are denying their true identity. Then I went and did some research and it said that Bosnia was a name of a river used as the name of Kingdom there,Kingdom of Bosnia,then the Ottomans took over and they more or less used or turned the territory into a Bosnia Province/Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans. And the people there were collectively called Bosniaks.And the Bosniaks today are those Islamized inhabitants of the Bosnia Sanjak. Some scholar also said that nobody knows their(the Bosniaks) true identity but that they were just Slavic Muslims there during the Ottoman times. Another thing is,that the Bosniak language is called Serbo-Croat.And someone here told me that the differences of language between these 3 groups is minor. So! Could this three groups(Serbs,Bosniaks,Croats) be one ethnic group with religious differences??? Whats the truth?
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Post by Username on Dec 13, 2009 23:24:00 GMT -5
From what I know, no, Serbs and Croats did not stem from one ethnic groups. They had different migration routes into the Balkans, and arrived at different times.. Again, not 100% sure, but Croats were said to have came from in between Poland and Germany (search White Croatia) in the 5th or 6th century(?).. what's the story on Serbs arrival? I don't know, but I do know they're not indigenous to the region and their "story" is separate.
Meanwhile, there is no mention of any migration of Bosniaks, because Bosniaks self-identified as either Croats or Serbs before the Ottomans. The Bosniak identity was created when the Ottomans arrived and the conversions took place.. I'm surprised you haven't learned of this.
However, all Slavs technically come from one ethnic group... starting at the hypothetical Proto-Slavic group and moving onwards to split into the different Slavic ethnic groups we see today (Czechs, Poles, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Ukrainians etc.)
Finally, I don't know what part of "don't listen to tito" you don't understand though... even the few Bosniaks left on this forum know he's lost his mind and don't trust a word he says.
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Post by Username on Dec 13, 2009 23:33:50 GMT -5
The separation and distinctions of the languages has more to do with POLITICS than linguistics. The languages are essentially the same (why Serbs use Cyrillic and Croats and Bosnians use Latin - I don't know though)..
Yes, they could.. however, it is completely valid to separate people into different ethnic groups based on one sole factor like religion. They are not one ethnic group, because they don't identify as one.. that's really the prereq of ethnic groups - identifying with other people based on common factors that makes you feel a closeness with them.
And the answer could also be no... cause as I've said, presumably, Croats and Serbs came to the Balkans at different times, from different regions (if someone could expand on where Serbs came from that'd be great).. However, genetics in Europe do NOT coincide with ethnic groups (e.g. Flemms, Walloons [in Belgium] and the Dutch are genetically identical, but still three different ethnic groups).. and chances are, I as a Croat/Serb (I identify as a Croat 100% though) may not even be related to the original Croat and Serb tribes who came to the Balkans today... in fact, I had a Y-DNA haplogroup test done, and tracing down my fathers line, I fit into a subclade of R1b.. meaning that my ancestors down my father's line, are the people that populate Western Europe nowadays.. Meanwhile, R1a, and POSSIBLY I2a2 (highest concentration in Croatia and Bosnia, followed by Serbia) are associated with the Slavic migrations.. so even though I may not be (don't know for a fact), related to those Slavs that settled here.. I am still half Croat and half Serb.. and legitimately so.
That's also like saying could Poles, Czechs and Slovaks be one ethnic group with language differences (considering they're all Catholics).. yes language is the major force in the development and spread of culture, but it isn't the only one.. Religion is another.. and is surely a dominating force in the Balkans, where you can see a clear divergence in culture between the three groups because of it (well moreso between Bosniaks and Croats/Serbs - Islam vs. Christianity).
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Post by bob1389 on Dec 14, 2009 0:05:29 GMT -5
Therein lies the problem, you don't know very much.
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Post by Username on Dec 14, 2009 0:10:37 GMT -5
Therein lies the problem, you don't know very much. Is this because of what I said in your thread? lol Tell us what you know about the subject or go away.. comon' educate me.
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gavrilo
Amicus
Vi ste svi banane
Posts: 840
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Post by gavrilo on Dec 14, 2009 2:00:11 GMT -5
User, you are half and half, so why do you associate as 100 percent croat?
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Post by Username on Dec 14, 2009 2:14:47 GMT -5
User, you are half and half, so why do you associate as 100 percent croat? Just raised that way. I didn't even know I was half Serb until I was like 7 or 8.. when my parents decided to bring it up.. lol. When we did associate with any former Yugos, it was only with Croats (plus the whole Church thing), and we don't really keep that much in touch with the Serb side of the family. But yeah, as a result, I just don't feel any Serb in me; much like other people in North America who choose to self identify with one or two ethnic groups at the most, even though they might be a combo of a bunch of more groups.
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Post by hellboy87 on Dec 14, 2009 4:40:55 GMT -5
username,if croats and serbs came at different times,why do they have similar a language?
also,I thought the people of the Balkans are assimilated(mostly) indigenous Balkanians.
Just like the ethnic Turks of Turkey who are largely Turkicized Anatolians
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Dec 14, 2009 5:21:36 GMT -5
^hellboy the language croats use today is far from the original language they spoke before it was slavicised. That explains your question about the language.
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Post by Username on Dec 14, 2009 13:42:21 GMT -5
Not sure, just a guess - but perhaps the close proximity of where the Serbs and Croats originally settled inhibited the divergence of the Slavic language they spoke.
also,I thought the people of the Balkans are assimilated(mostly) indigenous Balkanians.
That's what I was suggesting when I said the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup for Croat/Serb/Bosniak men is haplogroup I.. A haplogroup not really associated with the Slavic migration.. but perhaps the I2a2s were Slavs as well as the R1as. No one knows.
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Post by srbobran on Dec 14, 2009 14:41:47 GMT -5
Well general consensus is that Haplogroup I is a Balkan gene (I can post links if you want). As for the other prevalent haplogroups in Serbs (like J, T and E1b1 which are said to have came at the same time) are generally associated with Mediteranean populations (high frequencies in Italy, Albania, and Greece) and may be as a result of extensive Roman colonizations of the Balkans. Its all speculation though.
Anyways ,to answer your question, I personally think that Serbs, Croats, abd Bosniaks are one (ie. same culture, mentality, language) with small regional variations and I'll go as far as to say that I think that everyone in the Balkans are at least close cousins and were all ethnically and culturally related to a large extent.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 2, 2010 13:11:48 GMT -5
^hellboy the language croats use today is far from the original language they spoke before it was slavicised. That explains your question about the language. Slavicized? I thought Croats were a Slavic group to begin with?
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 2, 2010 13:15:54 GMT -5
Not sure, just a guess - but perhaps the close proximity of where the Serbs and Croats originally settled inhibited the divergence of the Slavic language they spoke. Inhibited divergence? So if they were different to begin with,how could that be the reason?
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