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Post by hellboy87 on Feb 10, 2010 6:23:52 GMT -5
Vizier's note: How many times should I tell you to avoid insulting others?
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Post by thracian08 on Feb 10, 2010 12:51:15 GMT -5
Chalk liberation is one thing, but killing civilians with no army is another....
Don't try to justify their behavior. We all know what Armenians did and they are not innocent as they like to portray themselves. That's why I don't feel sorry for them. Do you get that?
Rhezeus, in the US Turkish American groups are constantly trying to vilify their case, it's not like they're not trying. But the Armenian lobby is strong in US and Europe.
Look who's talking hellboy, you constantly insult Turks, you should speak for yourself...
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Post by thracian08 on Feb 10, 2010 12:54:18 GMT -5
By the way Rhezus, I'm glad to see someone supporting me on this issue.
Armenians grow up with a hatred of Turks, they send their children to camps and their entire identity is based upon this. If you brainwash someone when they're a little kid, it is so hard to change their minds.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 10, 2010 17:07:48 GMT -5
^^ Of course Thracian, I don't believe Ottoman army just got crazy for a while - went killing Armenians, for fun. Truth will come out, I am sure. If Armenians had balls to provoke such a fight, then they should blame no other than themselves. Or may be they did not have balls to handle the lost of Armenian's lives. But Turks, of course they can be killed - as many as possible! Hmn, quite weird, right. For sure, I believe they are guilty but obssessed in proving they are victims.. Christian world, that's all they have to lean on.
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Post by thracian08 on Feb 10, 2010 19:14:24 GMT -5
ARMENIAN ISSUE
The Armenian Diaspora claim of genocide is a one-sided assessment of the inter-communal war between Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Muslims in 1915, and it prejudices Turkish and Armenian rapprochement. Over 1.1 million Ottoman Muslims perished as the Armenian Revolt (1885-1919) and inter-communal attacks aimed to carve out an ethnically and politically pure Armenian state from the eastern Ottoman Empire, even though demographically they were a minority.
To recognize this Muslim suffering is not to diminish Armenian suffering, but to respect all tragedies regardless of the race, ethnicity or religion of the victims, and to place the Armenian tragedy in its proper context of a violent independence movement that failed at a tremendous human cost to Ottoman Armenians and Muslims alike.
TCA supports United States foreign policy to encourage Armenia to accept Turkey's proposal to establish a historical truth commission, which would address the legal issue of whether either of the tragedies, Armenian or Muslim, constitute genocide, utilize Ottoman and WWI historians as expert witnesses, and secure absolute access to the archives of the relevant parties, particularly those of the Armenian Republic and Armenian Revolutionary Federation who carried out the Armenian Revolt.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Feb 11, 2010 0:33:41 GMT -5
Turkey actually does have fairly strong lobby in USA and spends lots of money to deny Arm genocide.
Turkey wants to show their version of what happened.
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there as far as I know has been no independant source that has exhaustively gone through Turkish archives the archives in the past have been open to "reliable historians". who knows what would be open and waht would be hidden there are Turkish documents that Armenians have access to that seem to favour a genocidal behaviour by Ottoman authorities.
not true 80% of Armenian population of Anatolia was not at war with Turkey these were predominantly unarmed civillians.
most of the Armenians that fought with Russian troops against Turks were from Russia and not Anatollia although there were some involvement from Anatollian Armenians sure but majority of the Armenians targeted by Ottomans were non combatants and were not at war.
There were cases of Armenians massacring Turks/Kurds this is true however these massacres took place already after larger massacres had been committed upon Armenians, being the Hamidian Massacres between 1870 to 1909, and also post the 1915 deportations and massacres upon Armenians so the massacres Armenians committed were somewhat vengeance orientated and in any case massacres committed by Kurds and Turks on Armenians has been far greater.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Feb 11, 2010 2:09:03 GMT -5
There were cases of Armenians massacring Turks/Kurds this is true however these massacres took place already after larger massacres had been committed upon Armenians, being the Hamidian Massacres between 1870 to 1909, and also post the 1915 deportations and massacres upon Armenians so the massacres Armenians committed were somewhat vengeance orientated and in any case massacres committed by Kurds and Turks on Armenians has been far greater. Not true. Let us recall: Nov. 2 - Russian Caucasus Corps invaded Armenia, took Bayazid, advanced 17 miles by Nov. 4.
Nov. 7 - Turks stopped Russians at Erzerum.
Nov. 11 - Sultan proclaimed jihad in Constantinople.
Nov. 15 - Turks defeat Russian battalion at copper mine south of Batumi, but Russian Turkestan Corps reinforced the Caucasus Corps, resumed offensive. Russians gave supplies to a volunteer Armenian division, raised from the 1 million Armenians living in Russia, that raided the region and killed 120,000 Turkish civilians. On Nov. 30, the Czar inspected the front and praised the Armenian Catholicos, saying "a brilliant future awaits the Armenians." history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww1/1915b.htmlDuring December 1914, Nicholas II of Russia visited the Caucasus Front. Nicholas II with the presence of head of the Armenian Church along with the Alexander Khatisyan who was of the president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis: "All countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of the Russian Army... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Let your will the peoples [Armenian] remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ received resurrection for a new free life ...".en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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Post by chalkedon on Feb 11, 2010 3:39:49 GMT -5
Chalk liberation is one thing, but killing civilians with no army is another.... Don't try to justify their behavior. We all know what Armenians did and they are not innocent as they like to portray themselves. That's why I don't feel sorry for them. Do you get that? Rhezeus, in the US Turkish American groups are constantly trying to vilify their case, it's not like they're not trying. But the Armenian lobby is strong in US and Europe. Look who's talking hellboy, you constantly insult Turks, you should speak for yourself... thracian...let me make something clear. Im not protraying the armenians as saints throughout this whole tragedy. I COMPLETLEY understand what you guys mean about them rebelling against the empire. HOWEVER, at the end of the day...its the armenians that are a million less in their own land. Hell, the least you could of done is give them the damn mountain of Ararat which is engrained in their identity. As if there is something signiificant in that area to begin with.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 11, 2010 6:21:21 GMT -5
Hahah, now this.. Why not give them mountain of Olymp, Mt. Everest and Lake Tahoe.
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Post by chalkedon on Feb 11, 2010 6:46:58 GMT -5
there is nothing there Rhezus..might be nice scenery and all, but nothing there as far as importance. Same thing with SE Turkey...nothing there but problems.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Feb 11, 2010 7:05:35 GMT -5
Im sorry? Give them a mountain, which country has done such a thing in history ever?
It is very easy to say but it isn't going to happen. There maps include half of Turkey for god's sake, lets also give the western part to Greece and then we can 80 million people live in Ankara, this reminds me of a certain treaty that thanks to Ataturk couldnt be enforced, thank GOD, or I would be either non existant or speaking french today.
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Post by chalkedon on Feb 11, 2010 8:38:52 GMT -5
Dee... I know its not going to happen. I was just saying...it wouldnt be something ppl would lose sleep over. I mean just look where its at... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_AraratAt the same time it would mean a lot to armenian ppl and probably reconcile them with what happened in the past. Greece fyi..has lost territory. We paid our dues...nobody can say that we didnt. And for not doing half of what happened in Turkey during the break up of ottoman empire. In any case...you should know by now that i personally have no hard feelings with turks or turkey. We are just discussing topics that sometimes conflict in opinions...thats all.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Feb 11, 2010 8:56:01 GMT -5
I know, we are. Its just that thats what would happen right...
Since why is it fair to hand a mountain to Armenians, but not give izmir to the Greeks? get my drift?
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Post by chalkedon on Feb 11, 2010 9:01:10 GMT -5
since your offering... thats also a good idea. lol..
but seriously...the armenians got shafted big time. We'll see how this genocide issue will pan out in the future. I dont think youll ever be able to shake it off. Its always going to be a stigma. Sadly, i agree with you that ppl today are not directly responsible for what happened. I guess the turkish govt just has to do some type of gesture to solve this once and for all.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Feb 11, 2010 9:06:54 GMT -5
They have made a gesture, that the Armenians struggled and refused, yet now they have accepted i think, I haven't been following it much, since it isn't really an issue in Turkey. They have agreed upon a joint research project, they were waiting upon the archives If I remember correctly.
We shall find out soon. If there are rights established it should be to both communities. I have much to say about what the Armenians did in Adana, to there very neighbours, and I hope the Kurds are ready to face whatever is required by them in accepting there role in the massacres that took place.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Feb 11, 2010 11:24:56 GMT -5
Give up Ararat... the locals in the area revere the mountain as well. The Kurds also see the mountain as being something special.
Plus, whichever politician even so much as speaks of this... he would be ousted and if anything, possibly imprisoned under the charge of treason.
No nation is willing to give up an inch of land because an inch can easily become 100 miles.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Feb 11, 2010 11:56:13 GMT -5
yup
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Post by thracian08 on Feb 11, 2010 13:23:12 GMT -5
Chalk, I could care less about anyone's identity. A war is a war, and they lost the war, and now they're complaining. They have their own country.
Turks are 1 Million less too..
What's your point?
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Post by chalkedon on Feb 11, 2010 13:28:22 GMT -5
thracian...my point is that you have a huge country at the expense of its indeginous population. Its not so easy saying its just war...
Erdogan was having a fit when the isrealis were bombing the crap out of the palestinians. Isreal can say as you say....its a war and they are losing.
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Post by thracian08 on Feb 11, 2010 13:53:05 GMT -5
Yeah but Israel Palestine issue is a completly different one than what you're referring to.
What expense? Kurds are all over Turkey - they are the largest minority group in the largest cities. They bought and are still buying land in Central Turkey from villagers.
Need I say more?
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