donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 3, 2008 7:48:26 GMT -5
I will try doing my best sharing what I know, though I am not a linguist (I wasn't even aware of the fshat/fossatium connection, for instance).
The Latin influence in Albanian is to my knowledge strongest. It is for instance very strong within the sphere of religion. The introduction of Christianity was made by Latin-speakers by all probability. Thus we have words like meshë (mass) from missa, ipeshkv (bishop) from episcopus etc. Eveb words for 'sin', 'holy' & 'spirit' are Latin-derived. Not all Latin loan-words are, however, without indigenous equivalents. Thus the word for flock is grigjë and comes from Latin grex. But we also have the words tufa and kopé. Some words that exist in Albanian and Romanian are thought to be Latin-derived, like our respective words for horse, thought to derive from Latin caballus. We say kalë. You, I recall, say something very similiar. In Homeric Greek, the word was kelis. Loan word or cognates? Other Latin-derived words are fqinj (neighbour) from vicinium, qiell (heaven) from caelus, fshat from fossatium as you mentioned and so forth (cannot remember anymore for the time being).
When it comes to Greek, alot of the loan-words are international, like history, biology, physics etc. And some are loan-words related to medieval Greek (religious terminology, e.g. manastir). Loan-words from the classical era are few, yet they exist nonetheless, meaning there was some interaction at the very least. Examples are drapër from drapanon (sickle, crescent), qërshi from kerasia (cherry), lakër from ... (cabbage) etc. Furthermore, there are some words shared between Albanian and Homeric Greek, some of which are absent in modern Greek. In this department, I am not sure who borrowed from who.
Slav loan-words are very much restricted to two fields; the field of agriculture and that of medieval administrative/social terms. In the latter field we have words like gjobë from glob (fine), zakon from zakonik (law, tradition etc) and so forth. In the former field, we have words like lopatë from lopata (spade), rrafsh from ravnica (plain), kosë from kosa (scythe) etc. For many of these words, we have our own synonyms that are indigenous, such as dënim instead of gjobë, doke instead of zakon, kaci instead of lopatë, fushë instead of rrafsh etc.
Turkish loan-words have almost all their own, indigenous synonyms. In consequence, they are dissapearing. Their strongest usage is in the religious field, particularly Islam. We have words like sabah (morning) for which we have our mëngjes, aksham (evening) for which we have our own mbrëmje, adet (tradition) for which we have doke, hoxha from hoca (imam) etc.
In conclusion, the loan-words in Albanian from different languages are the result of different times, hence they have also specific places in our language. For intance, we have the Slav loan-words. The Albanians of old were pastoralists, they were organized in loose clans. The Slavs, however, succeeded in establishing principalities and kingdoms rather early, and their main profession came to be agriculture. And so, in contact with these Slavs who created medieval laws and worked the lands, we borrowed words from these specific fields.
And so on. This is what I had to contribute with.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 3, 2008 9:25:47 GMT -5
BibleRiot If you notice closely, you will see that the unanswerable questions that i posed prove that such theories are pure garbage. I cant go on a vicious circle. About pronunciation, in slavs langs what is spoken is written. So a difference in speech, results in a difference in writing, and this in turn in the persistence of this difference. Going to study the toponyms in Epiros, without knowledge of Serb language, is like Coustoux studying the sharks without a diving suit.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 3, 2008 9:58:49 GMT -5
What I was thinking instead is the word KUM (k-pronounced as K in Key) which is sand in Albanian tosk. And all of a sudden I associated it with ORICUM ! In Gheg the same word is Rana. In standartized Albania is rera!!!
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 10:21:01 GMT -5
BibleRiot If you notice closely, you will see that the unanswerable questions that i posed prove that such theories are pure garbage. I cant go on a vicious circle. About pronunciation, in slavs langs what is spoken is written. So a difference in speech, results in a difference in writing, and this in turn in the persistence of this difference. Going to study the toponyms in Epiros, without knowledge of Serb language, is like Coustoux studying the sharks without a diving suit. Pyrros, this is only true of Serbian since the linguistic reform introduced by Vuk Karadzic in the mid 19th century. Prior to that the written language was close to Church Slavonic, an archaic form close to the language of the Bible as translated by Cyril and Methodius in the 9th century. Vuk Karadzic’s famous dictum was: Пиши као што говориш, читаj као што пише (Write as you speak, read as it is written). Thus in addition to changes in morphology and syntax, his reform included an updated phonetic writing scheme. Every alphabet-based writing starts out phonetic. Greek, French and English were that way too. Because spoken language changes over time, increasingly glaring discrepancies develop over the centuries. I agree with BibleRiot that the toponymy in territories now included in Greece, Albania and FYROM is closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 10:26:58 GMT -5
What I was thinking instead is the word KUM (k-pronounced as K in Key) which is sand in Albanian tosk. And all of a sudden I associated it with ORI CUM ! In Gheg the same word is Rana. In standartized Albania is rera!!! Teuta, both rana and rera derive from the Latin arena (sand). The Albanian language has a feature called rhotacism: the change of n into r. For example the Latin Valona has become Vlorë. Rhotacism is also present in certain Vlach and Romanian dialects.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 3, 2008 10:37:50 GMT -5
You're probably right. When I think of Latin I mostly refer to Italian. I didn't know arena was sand in Latin! I thought arena was a field square where people tend to gather and play, run, watch horse races etc. I thought sand was "sabia" or similar. In Albanian aren\e\a has the meaning of a field.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 13:31:03 GMT -5
In conclusion, the loan-words in Albanian from different languages are the result of different times, hence they have also specific places in our language. What about loanwords in other domains, such as body parts, or birth, death, marriage, family relationships, or emotions, or labor, struggle, illness, relaxation, enjoyment, or items of clothing, or household, or those descriptive of nature: weather, time, geography / geology, or flora and fauna? Are there etymological dictionaries of Albanian?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 3, 2008 14:45:51 GMT -5
"I agree with BibleRiot that the toponymy in territories now included in Greece, Albania and FYROM is closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian. "
evidence? Everybody (except me) seems to agree, but i am the only one providing clues... Dudes, take a look at a map at the border of Serbia and Bulgaria and tell me if you find any difference in the look & feel of the toponyms. To give you a clue, there are at least 3 kosovo's in Bulgaria. Its only from WORDS (like suh vs suvo, pole vs polje, gorna vs gora) from which a conclusion can be drown. The Serbs are the only slavs i know that say Suvo instead of Suh(o). So the Suvotseli case speaks by itself. Anyway, there is not much interest in finding the truth, so i wont waste any more of my time.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 15:15:03 GMT -5
evidence? Everybody (except me) seems to agree, but i am the only one providing clues... Dudes, take a look at a map at the border of Serbia and Bulgaria and tell me if you find any difference in the look & feel of the toponyms. To give you a clue, there are at least 3 kosovo's in Bulgaria. You don't say? There's at least three Kosovo's in Bulgaria? Here's another clue for you:
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 3, 2008 15:45:29 GMT -5
i'll be damn! But do they all say Suho or Suvo?? Heeey?? i got you!!!
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 15:48:02 GMT -5
Looks like you were left out to dry...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 3, 2008 16:07:32 GMT -5
Yes there are. Unfortunately I do not have one at hand. But since you seem to be an expert on both Latin and Slavic languages, I can list some words and you can see whether they seem borrowed or not. From my experience, most of the words within the fields listed by you are indigenous.
The body; koka, krye, kre (head); trup (body); këmbë (leg); krah (arm); shput (foot); dora (hand); gjoks, gji (breast); bark (stomach); shpina (back); kurriz (spine); byth (ass); shpatulla, supe (shoulders); sy (eye); hunda (nose); goja (mouth); vesh (ears). And so on ....
Birth is lindje or lerje for humans; pjell for animals. Death is vdekje for humans (an old word is mordja, obviously Latin); for animals it is ngordhje.
Father; at, t'et, tata, baba Mother; nëna, mëma Brother; vëlla, byrazer Sister; motër grandfather; gjysh, grandmother; gjyshe uncle; ungj aunt; teze (maternal), halla (paternal) cousin; kushëri (paternal), tezak (maternal) husband; bashkëshort (translated as companion) wife; bashkëshorte, shoqe (translated as companion, partner or friend) kin; farë/fara, soj
or emotions, or labor, struggle, illness, relaxation, enjoyment,
For emotions we have gëzim (glad) and lumtur (happy, happiness, symbolically deerived from lum meaning river, a source of happiness); pikëllim (sad), zi (sorrow, from our word for black); sëmundje (illness), sëmurë (sick); puna (work, labour), lodhje (fatigue), pushim (rest, relaxation), argëtim/zbavitje (enjoyment, fun) etc.
Clothings are translated as veshëmbathje. When you say veshu, it's an order to take on trousers and sweaters, everything except shoes or socks, for which we have the word mbathu. Take off your clothes is deshu, take off socks or shoes is dathu.
Words for sweater are all modern from what I know, i.e. from English or other languages, like triko. Traditional costumes is a different matter, but I am not well-oriented in that field.
Trousers; the modern word is pantolla, i.e. Latin-derived, but an old word is tirqe which linguists say is a loan-word from Gothic (the English trousers being a cognate).
Hat; kapuç, kapelë, plis, qeleshe
Socks; çorape
Shtëpi is the word for house; exists also in Greek as stipises. Dera or pragu is the word for door; mur (wall); kulm (roof); dysheme (floor); bashqe (yard) ... what specific words were you considering?
The word for time and weather is the same; koha and moti. In the modern standard language, moti is more specifically used as weather and koha as time. Ftohtë, acar (cold); nxehtë, ngrohtë (hot); vakët (lukewarm); dimër (winter), pranverë (spring), verë (summer), vjeshtë (autumn).
Nature description. geograhy, geology; veri (north), jug (south), perëndim (west), lindje (east); ishull, ujëdhesë (island); kep (cape), gji (bay); dhe (earth); gur (stone); shkëmb (rock); det (sea), liqen (lake), lum (river), prrua (little river); kreshtë (ridge); shpat/pjerrësirë (slope)) etc.
If we take the fauna, we must take traditional animals found in Europe since exotic animals are naturally found through borrowed words, i.e. elefant or file for elephant. Thus we have qen (dog), maca (cat), kali (horse), lopa (cow), dele (sheep), dhi (goat), ulk (wolf), ari (bear), dren (deer), kaproll (roe deer), gjarpër (snake), bolla (grass snake), ngjalë (eel), peshk i.e. fish such as mlysh (pike), perka (perch), shojza (flounder) etc.
Fauna; pyll/mal (forest/forested mountain); lule (flower); dru (tree); bredh (spruce); mështekën (birch); shelg (willow); lis (oak); frashër (aspen); ah (beech) etc.
This is all I could come up for the time being. If you have specific words you're wondering about, list them.
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Post by BibleRiot on Feb 3, 2008 16:28:09 GMT -5
Serbs are the only slavs i know that say Suvo instead of Suh(o).
Sounds like a historical artefact of the evolution of the south Slav languages. Don't the Bosnians and Croats say Suho as well as the Bulgarians? The real question is how long ago did this divergence emerge.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 17:08:42 GMT -5
Looking over your list, Donnie, it is clear that there are many loanwords in Albanian. I’ll start by explaining below just a few. This kind of “foreign” influence is fairly common in other languages as well - just think of English with its Germanic, French, Latin and Celtic components.
krye, kre (head) – Latin cerebrum (brain) trup (body) – Slavic (body) këmbë (leg) – Latin (Italian, Spanish gamba, French jambe = leg) shpina (back) – Latin spina (spine) byth (ass) – Indo-European (Slavic but, English butt) shpatulla (shoulders) – Latin spatula (shoulder blade)
mordja, death, obviously Latin – no, that is Indo-European (Latin mors, mortis, Slavic smert, Persian mark, etc) byrazer (brother)- Indo-European. Interestingly the South Slavs use burazer as a slang which I think is borrowed from Albanian ungj (uncle) – Latin avunculus (“mother's brother” from “little grandfather”) kushëri (cousin) – Latin consobrinus (mother's sister's child) bashkëshort (husband) – this seems to contain be the Latin component consors, consortis bashkëshorte, shoqe (wife) – Latin socia
The important conclusion for the present discussion is that because loanwords are distributed throughout the Albanian vocabulary, it is silly to conclude that the presence of loanwords in a particular domain (seafaring and fishing, or even agriculture) proves conclusively that the proto Albanians didn’t know these concepts prior to accepting the loanwords. From the above list, the Albanian terms for head, body, leg, back and shoulders are loanwords. Are we to conclude that the proto Albanians didn’t know these concepts before getting in contact with Latin or Slavic? No. For various natural historic reasons these loanwords replaced “original” Albanian nomenclature.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 3, 2008 17:30:00 GMT -5
Nice conclusion c0gnate.
By the way, did that cyrillic map represent the presence of Bulgarian derived toponymy in Kosova?
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 3, 2008 17:44:44 GMT -5
The presence of Slav toponymy is not such an enigmatic topic as certain individuals would like to portray. Through linguistic research and contemporary documents, we can conclude that the proto-Albanians and their medieval descendants lived a pastoral life in the highlands.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Feb 3, 2008 18:43:47 GMT -5
Cognate we dont know exact who from who borowed because like Latin also albanian lnguage is old "krye, kre (head) – Latin cerebrum (brain)" root here looked bening albanian kry/krye (Kryetar = president, kryesues = leader). "trup (body) – Slavic (body)" i know that trup is albanian...are you sure that is slavic? i never heard this word among serbs in Kosova. "këmbë (leg) – Latin (Italian, Spanish gamba, French jambe = leg)" in geg dialect we say... Komë and Kamë"shpina (back) – Latin spina (spine)" shpatulla (shoulders) – Latin spatula (shoulder blade) those are latin, correct "mordja, death, obviously Latin – no, that is Indo-European (Latin mors, mortis, Slavic smert, Persian mark, etc)" we dont have word mordja in our language "byrazer (brother)- Indo-European. Interestingly the South Slavs use burazer as a slang which I think is borrowed from Albanian" byrazer use only south albanians (probality villagers but rare), i am sure this word is turkish "ungj (uncle) – Latin avunculus (“mother's brother” from “little grandfather”)" we say also Xhaxha and Mixhë
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 18:49:29 GMT -5
By the way, did that cyrillic map represent the presence of Bulgarian derived toponymy in Kosova? Donnie, no, that is a partial map of Europe, up to Finland and Russia on two sides, Germany and Italy on another and Turkey and Greece on the remaining side. It shows, not surprisingly, that the term Kosovo or its variants is known throughout the Slavic world. It’s not surprising because in most Slavic languages (not only in Serbian or Bulgarian) kos means blackbird, and kosovo means “pertaining to the blackbird”. Regarding Serbian versus Bulgarian toponymy, one has to consider not their modern literary forms, but their ancient dialects. Even today the literary South Slavic languages all are similar to each other and contain a high degree of mutual intelligibility. The intelligibility for dialects from neighboring regions belonging to different countries is even higher. Thus certain Slovenian and Croatian dialects are closer to each other than either is to its respective literary form. Similarly the nominally Serbian Torlak dialect is very close to the adjacent Shop dialect in Bulgaria, and both dialects differ noticeably from literary Serbian and literary Bulgarian. So we can’t draw conclusions from cursory examination of modern maps. However, as BibleRiot pointed out, this issue has been addressed by linguists and historians. It is their conclusion that the Slavic toponymy in (modern) Greece and Albania is closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian. I don’t have a good list of Slavic toponymy in Albania. I understand it is very widespread. Slavic toponymy used to be fairly common in parts of (modern) Greece as well, but in the first part of the twentieth century the Greek government artificially renamed rivers, mountains, towns and villages, in an effort to erase the historic evidence of non Hellenic presence on its territory. www.mymacedonia.net/aegean/hellenization.htm
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Post by Arxileas on Feb 3, 2008 18:57:11 GMT -5
The presence of Slav toponymy is not such an enigmatic topic as certain individuals would like to portray. Through linguistic research and contemporary documents, we can conclude that the proto-Albanians and their medieval descendants lived a pastoral life in the highlands. Is a popular thesis that the modern Albanian historiography continually tends to demonstrate, affirming that the Albanians are direct descendents of the Ilirians or Dardarians ? can not withstand even the most superficial scientific test, since these ancient nations did not exist at the time when the process leading to the formation of the Albanian nation. Byzantine and other historic sources make no mention of Albanians before the 12th century. From the period when the Ilirians and the Dardanians disappeared from the scene of history at least 600 to 1000 years passed. Therefore, one can state with certainty that the Balkans, which started affirming itself on certain ancient-Balkan bases, and the beginning of the Middle ages, after the downfall of the Roman Empire.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 3, 2008 18:59:29 GMT -5
"trup (body) – Slavic (body)" i know that trup is albanian...are you sure that is slavic? i never heard this word among serbs in Kosova. Prijesdardanian, type trup in some of these Slavic-English dictionaries: www.yourdictionary.com/languages/slavic.html
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