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Post by ljubotan on Feb 11, 2010 10:59:36 GMT -5
Let's switch the topics from 'settlements' to grammar/dialects. Are there any manuscripts from Serbian/Bulgaria/Vardar dating back to the 10th centuries, that someone could translate into latin script?
I'd like to know how the language sounded back then to form an opinion if indeed they were closer and actually had cases.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 24, 2010 10:46:07 GMT -5
I guess i friend (Novi? Highduke? i dont remember) talked about Dusan's code being extremely similar to the Prizren-Timok dialect.
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Post by ljubotan on Mar 24, 2010 11:27:07 GMT -5
It would be nice if someone could translate in latin a couple lines of Dusan's code. Do you think his dialect had anything to do with the fact that his mother was 100% Bulgarian? After all, children in general grow up to speak the dialect of their mother.
Its hard to say but I think the 2 languages were much more closer 1000yrs ago and the populace did not care who ruled over them (Torlak areas); however, the name 'Bulgarian' in all honesty was slandered by the Communists as 'Turks', 'Cincari' etc. the last 70yrs.
Many Macedonians who do know of their Bulgarian roots today hide it because of shame.
I am not Bulgarian, but the facts are that the Bulgarian Empire ruled over Sumadija & Kosovo before the state of Raska incorporated those regions into their realm. The Ekavica dialect may be a result from the 1st & 2nd Bulgarian empires; hence, why Serbian linguists admit that the original Serb dialect is/was ijekvica (Crna Gora, Hercegovina, western Serbia/Raska) - all original Serb tribe settlements.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 24, 2010 13:04:29 GMT -5
Ljubotan, I don't know much about the linguistic part of it all but I'll see if I can possible find some such texts.. too bad Edlund isn't here, I understand he was the expert in this field.
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Post by ljubotan on Mar 24, 2010 14:44:25 GMT -5
Sometimes I suspect you're him:)
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 0:41:40 GMT -5
It would be nice if someone could translate in latin a couple lines of Dusan's code. Do you think his dialect had anything to do with the fact that his mother was 100% Bulgarian? After all, children in general grow up to speak the dialect of their mother. Its hard to say but I think the 2 languages were much more closer 1000yrs ago and the populace did not care who ruled over them (Torlak areas); however, the name 'Bulgarian' in all honesty was slandered by the Communists as 'Turks', 'Cincari' etc. the last 70yrs. Many Macedonians who do know of their Bulgarian roots today hide it because of shame. I am not Bulgarian, but the facts are that the Bulgarian Empire ruled over Sumadija & Kosovo before the state of Raska incorporated those regions into their realm. The Ekavica dialect may be a result from the 1st & 2nd Bulgarian empires; hence, why Serbian linguists admit that the original Serb dialect is/was ijekvica (Crna Gora, Hercegovina, western Serbia/Raska) - all original Serb tribe settlements. Ljubotan bro, do you know anything about the yat line of bulgarian language? Or the fact that the majority speaks like: ljato, mlijako, lijavo, etc... instead of leto, mleko,levo? All the axis from Makedonia, western bulgaria->central serbia->vojvodina->srem->(EVEN CROATIAN SREM had ekavica some time in the past)->Slovenia speak EKAVICA. The bulgarians had nothing to do with it. (apart from the obvious, that western bulgarians speak .... simple Serbian) The ekavian speakers can be presented in the below graph very well. also i dont think any Serbian linguist will admit this, since....... SOME BOSNIAN MUSLIMS PLACES IN CENTRAL/NORTHERN BOSNIA (Federacija) SPEAK EKAVICA AS WELL!!! (Tešanj and Maglaj )
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Post by rusebg on Mar 25, 2010 6:19:57 GMT -5
No, he is not. Asen has some tolerance to Novi while Edlund had none. Ljubotan, when reading Gyrro's linguistic attempts, make sure you are not able to jump through the window. As you can on see on Guro's map, the Ekavian dialect is well presented in Romania and Ukraine, according to this brilliant scientist ;D
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 25, 2010 9:40:02 GMT -5
No I'm not Edlund, but it would be nice if this guy returns to the forum. I've read some of his posts a while back, and they were very informative.
And as for Gurro, I don't see why he's once again polluting the topic.
Gurac, I know you lack comprehension skills, but unless you are able to post some old medieval texts that we could look through feel free to spare us your moronic conclusions.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 10:10:14 GMT -5
ha ha ha, the mongo trio always feel .... uncomfortable when genetics come into play.... the reason i was so verbose is because i didn;t notice any of you dirty sl uts correcting Ljubotan regarding Ekavica. You would stay silent and let it fly in the air that Ekavica thing was due to Bulgarian rule. (when your official mongolian language is JAkavica (Yakavica)) The mongo trio is clearly the worse kind of liars and fabricators ever seen Trazi Vise. The sneakiest species to be found here... From albanians, you can see some voice contrary to the main trend (or agenda)... From the tatar trio never..
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 25, 2010 11:23:33 GMT -5
This guy's insane.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 13:05:55 GMT -5
whats up mongo? run out of ideas?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Mar 25, 2010 13:46:17 GMT -5
arvanite shut your ling hole! You post maps of Bulgarian yat line? Should I post the same map on Serbia? Not to mention that Torlakian is not considered by linguists as Serbian dialect: it has too many Bulgarian features to classify as one!!! Not to mention that if your map with genetic is true, the real Serbia (western) is indeed Croatian and should be reunited with croatia. So you Albo Epirot, shut your lying mouth and stop licking Serbian asses in hope you hide your real Albanian origins (I d like to ask Àlbanians for forgiveness I have to associate you with this nothing, but we have to speak the truth, even if we dont like it).
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Mar 25, 2010 14:25:09 GMT -5
Gurro, the confused Albanian.. the confused Bulgarian should be coming along shortly.
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Post by insomniac on Mar 25, 2010 14:55:15 GMT -5
Ioan. no need to apologize.
arvanites change their identity for anything. they are never static in their opinion-- they are free lancers like gypsies. an example i can give you is pirro dhima who for some money became greek instantly. they are greek prostitutes.
we don't get along with them more than we dont with greeks.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 15:03:30 GMT -5
hey Asen bitch!!! we can be confused-whatever-you-like, the only thing that you know for sure we are not confused is how we feel about your pathetic kind. (and everyday you make sure to keep us away from being confused about it!) ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 15:04:29 GMT -5
Ioan. no need to apologize. arvanites change their identity for anything. they are never static in their opinion-- they are free lancers like gypsies. an example i can give you is pirro dhima who for some money became greek instantly. they are prostitutes. we don't get along with them more than we dont with greeks. no need to write whole essays about arvanites. I am not one of them, no matter how asen the asian anal whore tries to deviate from our subject.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Mar 25, 2010 16:36:21 GMT -5
For those that want to know the Bulgarian Language and its continuum into Macedonian (As viewed by the following authors), I'd suggest you pick up these books from our Greater City Libraries, and begin reading. I'm pretty sure you can find them in any of your larger libraries. Mazon, Andre. Contes Slaves de la Macédoine Sud-Occidentale: Etude linguistique; textes et traduction; Notes de Folklore, Paris 1923 (French Source) Селищев, Афанасий. Избранные труды, Москва 1968. (Soviet Source) Die Slaven in Griechenland von Max Vasmer. Verlag der Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1941. Kap. VI: Allgemeines und sprachliche Stellung der Slaven Griechenlands.** (German) K. Sandfeld, Balkanfilologien (København, 1926, MCMXXVI). (Danish) Konstantin Josef Jireček, Die Balkanvölker und ihre kulturellen und politischen Bestrebungen, Urania, II, Jg. 13, 27. März 1909, p. 195. (Czech; German Written as it was Austria-Hungary) Stefan Verković, Описание быта македонских болгар; Топографическо-этнографический очерк Македонии (Петербург, 1889). (And last but certainly not least, Serbian, written in Petrograd, Czardom of Russia, in Russian) Either way, Macedonian, as a language, is by a massive extent a branch of Bulgarian. However, it was influenced by Serbo-Croatian, and as such, it became a breed of its own. www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?menu=004&LangID=42 (American Source - Also I'd like you to note their own sources for it and its varieties) Also... F. A. K. Yasamee "NATIONALITY IN THE BALKANS: THE CASE OF THE MACEDONIANS" in Balkans: A Mirror of the New World Order, Istanbul: EREN, 1995; pp. 121–132 (Turkish Source) Seriot, Patrick (1997), "Faut-il que les langues aient un nom? Le cas du macédonien", in Tabouret-Keller, Andrée, Le nom des langues. L'enjeu de la nomination des langues, 1, Louvain: Peeters, pp. 167–190 (Russian Source translated into French) As with the issue of Macedonian ethnicity, the politicians, linguists and common people from Macedonia and neighbouring countries have opposing views about the existence and distinctiveness of the Macedonian language. Dostál, Antonín (1965), "The Origins of the Slavonic Liturgy", Dumbarton Oaks Papers 19: 67–87 (Ukrainian Source, American Published) www.jstor.org/pss/1291226 ...Here it is, for those that do want to look further into the Authors studies of of Slavonic Liturgy. Шклифов, Благой and Екатерина Шклифова, Български деалектни текстове от Егейска Македония, София 2003, с. 28–33 (Shklifov, Blagoy and Ekaterina Shklifova. Bulgarian dialect texts from Aegean Macedonia Sofia 2003, p. 28–36) (Bulgarian Source) www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/199902/90222-005-trae-sof.htmEven though, it seems, that Bulgarians and Macedonians are very close kin, the former and latter still agreed to disagree, and called it a day. All sources, from all these authors, which covers a span of close to 130 years of written work and documentation, points to Bulgarian and Macedonian; as a one in the same language, treated as different dialects. From what I've gathered, they respect each other like neighbors, and if the West wants to be its own (Macedonia), even though the East might not want to recognize it as so (Bulgaria), they've come to a middle ground, and have no problems.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 25, 2010 21:04:13 GMT -5
"Either way, Macedonian, as a language, is by a massive extent a branch of Bulgarian. However, it was influenced by Serbo-Croatian, and as such, it became a breed of its own."
Not an accurate conclusion MiG. Your basically stating that they are Bulgarian slavs *influenced* later by west balkan slavic?.....historically wrong!. Let me tell you briefly that practically the slavs when they settled in the Balkans 5/6th centuries spoke a common language, there was almost no differentiation between them. Even up to the formation of Old Church Slavonic the Balkan slavic languages were almost the same, even OCS has a declension system and this language was develped in the region around Thessaloniki. Slavic languages evolved and developed according to its location on the Balkans. MiG, modern Slovenian is the Balkan Slavic language most closest to Old Church Slavonic, while Bulgarian is the furthest (having lost most of its slavic case systems).
Vardarian (Fyromian), in my opinion, should be classified as an intermediate language between Standard Serbo-Croat and Standard Bulgarian because there are many features linking the language between them. Anyway, Vardarian (Fyromian) evolved in a similar fashion to modern Bulgarian (similar environment and influence), you know, they developed definite articles and lost most of its slavic case system, however, there is proof that vardarian (fyromian) evolved independantly from Bulgarian because Vardarian has more varieties of definite articles than Bulgarian etc......
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 25, 2010 23:58:31 GMT -5
"OCS has a declension system and this language was develped in the region around Thessaloniki." Thesaloniki itself never got fully slavicized. The oldest slav center was a nearby place SOUTH east of Thessaloniki, south-west of Kozani and north of Elason. You can easily locate it here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Dusanova_Srbija200.jpgThis place and its name dates back to unknown archont in the 7th century. the place is named : Serbija (Srbica) PS Novi, it would be a good idea to replay those old folk songs from Makedonia full of declensions, and their fate when they fell in tatar hands... PS2 My main objection about this whole Bulgarian thing is that ..... it looks too fake to be true. Bulgarian spirit although cool at times (albeit very miserable at others), cannot reach the heights of the Serbian one, regardless of south/west/east or north. I cannot imagine Bulgaria under an "air campaign", but i know for sure that they would lose their smile (if any) and their style (if any) in seconds. (unfortunately the same applies to Greece)
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 26, 2010 1:38:12 GMT -5
Genetic coherence of balkan peoples: SLAV MACEDONIANS ALMOST IDENTICAL TO SERBS: src: dienekes.blogspot.com
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