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Post by dusko1 on Feb 23, 2010 23:23:03 GMT -5
I guess this was removed from the Bulgarian forum by one of it's mods so someone special requested that I post it again.
Byzantine historians to refer to Onoguria during the reign of the Bulgar ruler Kubrat in the 7th century north of the Caucasus mountains in the steppe between the Dniester and Lower Volga
In support to this view is fact that the Bulgars are listed among the ten sons of Togarmah (the mythic ancestor of the Turks) in the Khazar Correspondence.
According to other records, Togarmah is regarded as the ancestor of the Turkic peoples. For example, The French Benedictine monk and scholar Calmet (1672-1757) places Togarmah in Scythia and Turcomania (in the Eurasian Steppes and Central Asia).[3] Also in his letters, King Joseph ben Aaron, the ruler of the Khazars, writes: "You ask us also in your epistle: "Of what people, of what family, and of what tribe are you?" Know that we are descended from Japhet, through his son Togarmah. I have found in the genealogical books of my ancestors that Togarmah had ten sons. These are their names: the eldest was Ujur (Agiôr - Uyghur), the second Tauris (Tirôsz - Tauri), the third Avar (Avôr - Avar), the fourth Uauz (Ugin - Oghuz), the fifth Bizal (Bizel - Pecheneg), the sixth Tarna, the seventh Khazar (Khazar), the eighth Janur (Zagur), the ninth Bulgar (Balgôr - Bulgar), the tenth Sawir (Szavvir/Szabir - Sabir)."[4]
The Imperial Dictionay makes Togarmah to mean the Torkomans who have always joined the Turks
Some derive it from the Turkic words On (ten) and Ghur (arrow) which in combination may mean "Ten Arrows", i.e. "A federation of ten tribes".
The Dulo Clan or the House of Dulo was the name of the ruling dynasty of the early Bulgars.
A later genealogy claims that the Dulo clan is descended from Attila the Hun. As Kubrat is mentioned in the Orkhon inscriptions and if John of Nikiu's "Quetrades" is indeed Kubrat, it is also likely that they were somewhat related to the Ashina clan adopting its Tamga
Genetic and anthropological researches have shown that the large steppe confederations of history were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities such as Turkic, Ugric and Eastern Iranic among others. Skeletal remains from Central Asia, excavated from different sites dating between the 15th century BC to the 5th century AD, have been analyzed.
Bulgars' supreme god was apparently called Tangra, a deity widely known among the Turkic peoples under names such as Tengri, Tura etc.[25]
"Further evidence culturally linking the Danubian Bulgar state to Turkic steppe traditions was the layout of the Bulgars' new capital of Pliska, founded just north of the Balkan Mountains shortly after 681. The large area enclosed by ramparts, with the rulers' habitations and assorted utility structures concentrated in the center, resembled more a steppe winter encampment turned into a permanent settlement than it did a typical Roman Balkan city.
Bulgars took part in the Hun raids on Central and Western Europe between 377 and 453. After the death of Attila in 453, and the subsequent disintegration of the Hunnish empire, the Bulgar tribes dispersed mostly to the eastern and southeastern parts of Europe.
In the middle of the 6th century, war broke out between the two main Bulgar tribes, the Kutrigur and Utigur. To the west, the Kutrigurs fell under Avar dominion and became influential within the Khaganate. The eastern Utigurs fell under the western Göktürk empire in 568.
The majority of historians do not see any evidence for the existence of a Bulgar khanate in Macedonia before 850 AD
Asparuh's victory led to the Bulgar conquest of Moesia and the establishment of some sort of alliance between the Bulgars and the local Slavic groups (described as the Severi and Seven Slavic tribes).
The Severians or Severyans or Siverians were a tribe or tribal union of early East Slavs occupying areas to the east of the middle Dnieper river around the rivers Desna, Sejm and Sula on the territory of the archaeological Romny culture.
the name may be derived from a Proto-Slavic word for "family member", compare Serbs.
The Severians were mostly engaged in agriculture, cattle breeding and different handicrafts.
Their existence as a political unit can be proven for the 8th to 11th century and thought to be sprang from the Krivichi
The Krivichs played a prominent role in colonization of the area between the rivers Volga and Klyazma. Together with the Dregovichs, Radimichs
The Seven Slavic tribes, together with other Slavic tribes of the Bulgarian Empire, gradually formed the Bulgarian ethnicity in the 9th century
The Berziti (Bulgarian,Macedonian,Serbian: Берзити) (also known as Bereziti or Brsjaci) were - along with the Draguvites - one of two original Slavic tribes to settle in the northern part of the region of Macedonia in the 6th century AD. They are considered part of the South Slavic Slavic tribes from the Southeastern part of the Peninsula (linked with modern-day Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians)
Around the 6th century, Slavs appeared on Byzantine borders in great numbers.[22] The Byzantine records note that grass wouldn't regrow in places where the Slavs had marched through, so great were their numbers.
Тhe medieval history of Serbia begins in the 5th century AD with the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans
According to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, a Byzantine Emperor who ruled during the 10th century, the Serbs migrated from White Serbia and initially settled around the region of Thessaloniki, Greece
On the one hand, some scholars hold it to be a true account of the situation, thus concluding that Neretvians, Zachlumians, Dukljians, Travunians and southeastern Bosnians are descendants of Serbs that took on new tribal names
There were a few South Slavic tribes in the Middle Ages that had contemporary name-sakes amongst Western and Eastern Slavic tribes, such as the Croats, Severians and Abodrites.
An embryonic Serbian state formed in the 9th century. At this time, the Bulgarian Khanate was expanding westward, and had already installed Bulgar despots over the Slavic tribes which inhabited what is present-day northern Serbia - the Srem region and eastern Slavonia[16]. At the same time, it pushed into Macedonia from the south, effectively encircling the Serbs.
BatBayan's people, the so-called Black Bulgars, remained in their homeland and were soon subdued by the Khazars. Some believe that the present-day Balkars are the descendants of the BatBayan horde even though they call themselves Malkars (after the river Malka) and speak a Turkic language of the Kipchak type. But in most Turkic languages the sound "b" became "m".
So it's safe to say that Bulgarians are a turk-Serbian mix heavily influenced by the Huge amount of Serb Slavs that Migrated south and had settled Macedonia. They were a threat to Slavdom and tried to assimilate the Slavic Serbian tribes, but they were outnumbered by the Slavic Serbs and in turn were heavily Slavicised thus creating the modern day turko-serbish Bulgarian.
Which as it turns out is a horrible combination. The Bulgarians assimilated a huge amount of Serbian clans but are completely confused about their heritage.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 24, 2010 3:56:50 GMT -5
"Further evidence culturally linking the Danubian Bulgar state to Turkic steppe traditions was the layout of the Bulgars' new capital of Pliska, founded just north of the Balkan Mountains shortly after 681. The large area enclosed by ramparts, with the rulers' habitations and assorted utility structures concentrated in the center, resembled more a steppe winter encampment turned into a permanent settlement than it did a typical Roman Balkan city." Yep, l've seen many sources attesting to this layout which was Bulgar, not Iranic as the trio (Ruse, Ioan and Asen) would like us to believe. "The majority of historians do not see any evidence for the existence of a Bulgar khanate in Macedonia before 850 AD" Yes, the only historians are ones from Danube Bulgarska who talk about Khan Kuber and all these fables of a Khanate all so conviently placed in Vardar "According to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, a Byzantine Emperor who ruled during the 10th century, the Serbs migrated from White Serbia and initially settled around the region of Thessaloniki, Greece" Guess what Dusko, the first Bulgarian empire never reached Thessaloniki and its at this town that the two Byzantine brothers Cyrill and Methodius formulate Old Church Slavonic from the local slavs of that city.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on Feb 24, 2010 11:36:45 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 24, 2010 17:58:07 GMT -5
"What do the above dimwits and this pic have in common?"
Ermir, the clown with the red nose, makes his appearance....hey Ermir, do you have any comments to make why the Bulgars are not decendants of the Turks?
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Post by dusko1 on Feb 24, 2010 21:46:36 GMT -5
For the record I have nothing against Bulgarians. I consider them Slavic brothers. The reason why I posted this article/essay was to get some of the Bulgarian's perspective on it. That's all.
LOL at the pic
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Feb 25, 2010 9:45:18 GMT -5
The perspective was posted in the Bulgarian forum, but racist idiots like Novi, don’t regard any comments unless they are fully anti-Bulgarian and only pro-Serbian.
The only thing that can be said about the article you’ve posted is that it was probably written by some Serb ultra-nationalist that is probably a racist much like Novi.
This quote alone makes the assumption that ALL Balkan Slavs were Serbs. That was never the case. And a conclusion that modern Bulgarians are a ‘turko-serbish’ mix, alone shows that the person who came up with this brilliant piece of work is clearly blinded by some faulty Serbian ideals.. much like Novi.
Bottom line is that any person, Serb or not, that actually thinks the conclusions of this article are credible is clearly rather ignorant.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Feb 25, 2010 9:55:16 GMT -5
Pfffffffffffffff come one, easy there. Enough with that crap. If there was any truth to that, your Serbian brothers wouldn't allow idiots like Novi to degrade relations with their racist and hateful remarks.
The only brothers Bulgarians have are themselves, any other person who is a genuine friend of Bulgaria be it a Macedonian, a Turk, an Albanian, a Greek, a Serb, a Romanian or whoever else will be respected.
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Post by rusebg on Feb 25, 2010 17:03:21 GMT -5
I locked it because it was repeating several topics at that time with exactly the same content. And to the one who asked you to post it here as well - go tell him to learn a little Serbian and try to vread a book or two in this language.
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Post by dusko1 on Feb 25, 2010 19:44:57 GMT -5
And to the one who asked you to post it here as well - go tell him to learn a little Serbian and try to vread a book or two in this language. You tell him. By the way what's vread?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 26, 2010 17:51:11 GMT -5
Yes the stooges will also tell you its a pro-serbian source when it doesn't suit them lmao.
Asen, horse tail for a flag, drank horse milk Airag, spoke turkic, built pliska in turkic style, had shamens, shatra's, east asian calendars etc....does it smell like a turkic?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Feb 26, 2010 18:13:07 GMT -5
Yeah, because a source that calls Bulgarians a 'turko-serbish' mix is credible right? Pfff the above article was probably manipulated by some Serbian ultra nationalist retard, much like yourself, who clearly has a very twisted knowledge of history.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 28, 2010 6:44:26 GMT -5
^ the serbs arrive 150 years before your Turrrrkics
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Feb 28, 2010 9:03:22 GMT -5
Actually there are sources that speak about Bulgars in the Bolkans in 5-6 century so dont hold your breath. Exept that the so called arrival of the Serfs is just described in 1 book, written centuries after it and I wouldnt bet my life it was right for the years of arrival. Next we do not know when Bulgars came on the Bolkans but we know they had a state 30 years after Serbs supposed arrival. When was the first Serbian state established again? Centuries after the Bulgarian one.
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 28, 2010 12:58:29 GMT -5
The Maks try 'despising' the Serbs for Aegean 'atrocities' during WWI, not having fair share of the money during Yugo Communist times, church, etc etc. They should stop and think that if it wasn't for Yugoslavia there would have been no freakin' diasporas in America or Canada.
I hate to say it but if you surround yourself with 'Macedonians' (not all of course), you will actually become dumb!
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Post by rusebg on Feb 28, 2010 17:30:24 GMT -5
Would you finally answer what is this? What is that wonder that belongs to a shatra? What a plank. Good to see you have finally stopped putting full stops after an exclamation mark, I hope you'll fix the problem with shatras in the next several years.
p.s What was the flag of the Aborigenes at those times, Captain? You know, I do not consider you a Serb, so from now on I will only ask you questions about native Australians. A jumping kangaroo may be?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 28, 2010 19:10:00 GMT -5
^ your credibility has been lost awhile ago, lastest stupidity of yours is calling the Bulgars the most aryan race of all indo-europeans.
Don't forget to drink your airag before you go to bed, we don't need anymore of your studities around here.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Mar 1, 2010 9:35:16 GMT -5
Hey Kangaroo.. how is it that you've become so retarded!? Were your parents related by blood? Possibly first cousins, or maybe even brother and sister?
How many times do we have to tell you that no one is claiming racial purity but you. Hah, and you talk about credibility.. you do relalize that the only people who actual think you are credible are a select few Serbs, who clearly don't know much about the history of the region or their own history for that matter.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 9, 2010 7:40:39 GMT -5
^ can you please re-read the origins of the Bulgars and stop calling them an Aryan tribe.
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Post by macmako on Mar 13, 2010 23:07:33 GMT -5
The Maks try 'despising' the Serbs for Aegean 'atrocities' during WWI, not having fair share of the money during Yugo Communist times, church, etc etc. They should stop and think that if it wasn't for Yugoslavia there would have been no freakin' diasporas in America or Canada. I hate to say it but if you surround yourself with 'Macedonians' (not all of course), you will actually become dumb! Nice!!! Are you a moderator on the Macedonian forum. It's a joke, isn't it?
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Post by macmako on Mar 13, 2010 23:30:59 GMT -5
One thing is for sure, and I say this from experience with the peoples of Serbia and Bulgaria. The Bulgarians are much more superior than the Serbs! Most Serbs that I meet were idiots, but the Bulgarians were intelligent, and kind and I got along with them very well.
But this is a Macedonian forum, not Bulgarian. Why is this thread here? Send it to the Bulgarian or Serbian forum. And please refrain from politically/idiotically driven responses here.
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