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Post by macmako on May 17, 2010 8:24:29 GMT -5
Naming and blaming
A last word on the Greece-Macedonia name dispute
Apr 15th 2010 | From The Economist online
A USEFUL test for an outsider trying to analyse an argument is to assume that one side is right and then to work out the consequences. If an analysis of eggshells conclusively proves that an egg is better opened at the big end rather than the small one, what follows? And if the assumption is reversed, how bad would it be to have got it wrong? Eggshells, as Jonathan Swift so bitingly observed in “Gulliver’s Travels”, are not worth getting cross about. The cost of a lifetime spent opening eggs incompetently is a small amount of wasted time and some spilled yolk. At the other extreme, take the question of whether Iran has nuclear weapons: get that wrong and you may either see Israel wiped off the map, or, alternatively, a catastrophic and unnecessary pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Walking on eggshells
This column’s recent attempt to look at the name dispute between Greece and its northern neighbour (FYROM to the Greeks, Macedonia to the locals) became the most-commented article ever to appear on the Economist website. A second column, which highlighted some similar issues in the post-communist world (and suggested that they might be overblown), was a runner-up.
At the risk of provoking ruptured spleens all round, here is a third attempt, using the principle outlined in the first paragraph. What if the Greeks are right? What if the other camp is right? In each case, does it matter?
The Greek case (crudely stated) is that Macedonia is a title properly belonging a) to ancient Macedonia and b) to the northern Greek province that bears that name. Communist Yugoslavia applied the label to its southern province (which in fact speaks a dialect of Bulgarian) as a provocation, in the aftermath of the Greek civil war. If it were to accept “Macedonia” as a name for the former Yugoslav republic, Greece would legitimise that communist name-grab and lay itself open to territorial claims, or even terrorism. It stubbornly refuses to allow its northern neighbour’s application for European Union and NATO membership to proceed until it budges on the name issue.
Assume Greece’s argument is right. Would it matter? The globe is studded with ancient, buried hatchets involving names and places (which came first: Bretagne or Grande-Bretagne? Who cares?) Logically preposterous toponyms are the rule, not intolerable exceptions. So set aside that argument, unless you are trying to drum up business for map publishers.
Nor does the argument about dangerous irredentism stand up. As a relatively big country, and a member of the EU and NATO, Greece can scarcely plead persecution from its small northern neighbour. The last 20 years show that expanding the EU and NATO is the best way of making troubled neighbourhoods safer. But even if there is a danger of terrorism from Skopjean extremists, how should it be contained? By including Macedonia in western clubs, prosperous and, with luck, well governed? Or by keeping it weak, divided and isolated?
So even if the Greeks are right, the course of action looks wrong. What of the Macedonian/FYROM side? Assume its most hardline protagonists are right: that they are the heirs to an ancient civilisation, whereas Greece is an ethno-nationalist bully with fascist undertones that oppresses a Slavic minority in the north. If that’s true, then the EU and others ought to be more worried than they are. But it has little bearing on the name of the northern neighbour.
On that basis, the verdict is clear. If the Skopje authorities are right, then withholding recognition of their name is an outrage. If they are wrong, even if they are silly and provocative, it is not worth breaking eggshells to set them right. Giving them their favoured name costs less than Greece claims, and has big benefits, for everyone, in increased stability.www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15905742
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Post by macmako on May 17, 2010 8:30:04 GMT -5
"Giving them their favoured name costs less than Greece claims, and has big benefits, for everyone, in increased stability."
I absolutely agree. It is the only solution for both Macedonia and Greece.
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Post by Arxileas on May 17, 2010 8:50:42 GMT -5
The only solution i see for both sides to benefit, is if this country Hellenize's it's self.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on May 17, 2010 9:05:03 GMT -5
The only solution i see for both sides to benefit, is if this country Hellenize's it's self. . How does one "Hellenize" ones self?
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Post by Arxileas on May 17, 2010 9:17:45 GMT -5
How does one "Hellenize" ones self? By accepting Alexanders true legacy...That was to spread the Hellenic way of life and culture to the then known world...To reject it is to reject the man him self and his legacy all together...
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Post by mansterofsouli on May 17, 2010 9:35:21 GMT -5
The only solution i see for both sides to benefit, is if this country Hellenize's it's self. . How does one "Hellenize" ones self? I know other ways Arhilleas to Hellenize this guy.
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Post by macmako on May 17, 2010 9:44:03 GMT -5
The use of the word "Hellenization" in our modern times refers to the cultural harmonization and education of the linguistic minorities resident within the modern Greek state.
Obviously, that will not work outside Greece/Cyprus.
;D
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Post by macmako on May 17, 2010 10:35:26 GMT -5
The only solution i see for both sides to benefit, is if this country Hellenize's it's self. . They already did once before, so many years ago. ;D ;D
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Post by chalkedon on May 17, 2010 11:13:12 GMT -5
"Giving them their favoured name costs less than Greece claims, and has big benefits, for everyone, in increased stability."I absolutely agree. It is the only solution for both Macedonia and Greece. Dem I suggest you pay a visit to skopiantruth.com or maknuts.com...then come back and let us know if providing the authorities in Skopia the name " Macedonia " be a good idea. These ppl are utterly insane. In any case, this chapter will close soon. It will be tough for both sides to accept, thats for sure...
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Post by macmako on May 17, 2010 16:33:09 GMT -5
"Giving them their favoured name costs less than Greece claims, and has big benefits, for everyone, in increased stability."I absolutely agree. It is the only solution for both Macedonia and Greece. Dem I suggest you pay a visit to skopiantruth.com or maknuts.com...then come back and let us know if providing the authorities in Skopia the name " Macedonia " be a good idea. These ppl are utterly insane. In any case, this chapter will close soon. It will be tough for both sides to accept, thats for sure... I do not give air time to both Greek and Macedonian nationalistic sites. It's all poison. Sorry.
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Post by Arxileas on May 17, 2010 19:45:24 GMT -5
They already did once before, so many years ago.
;D ;D With Alexanders campaign to spread the Hellenic way of life and culture and to also unite the Hellenic city states to fight the mighty Persian army under the Hellenic spirit. Yes I couldn't agree more there. It's just now we have some confused Former Yugoslavs with an identity crises. .
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Post by macmako on May 18, 2010 21:30:15 GMT -5
It's just now we have some confused Former Yugoslavs with an identity crises.
All Macedonians know who they are. But there are some that want to include history that they were not part of. It is insignificant and of no consequence.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on May 20, 2010 0:52:00 GMT -5
By accepting Alexanders true legacy...That was to spread the Hellenic way of life and culture to the then known world...To reject it is to reject the man him self and his legacy all together... The Hellenic culture and way of life in Alexanders time has nothing to do with the culture of modern Greeks or FY Macedonians. If Greeks had the mentality of ancient Hellenes, they would be leading the world right now, not be seen as the joke of Europe.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on May 20, 2010 4:49:09 GMT -5
^^ Perfectly said Nikola! Republic of Makedonia's is the only appropriate name for your country. Btw, who cares that Greece (or Bulgaria) has a region with same name!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on May 20, 2010 4:59:39 GMT -5
Rhezus, I hope the people in here do not think that your oppinion has anything to do with the oppinion of most Bulgarians. I also do not mind the Macedonians to name their state Macedonia, however I understand the Greeks fears on the matter. I mean half of Greece is actually "Macedonia" - the ancient land of Alexander. If not the same, the ancient Macedonians were too much conected to the Greeks... It was Macedonians who popularized the Greek culture in the far east... I personally think those tribes were the same or very closely related (Macedonian was Greek dialect). Because of this, it is easy to get confused that the present day Macedonians are the ancient ones and almost everyone knows thats untrue. On the other hand the present day Macedonians do live on the geographical region of Macedonia. What I am (and most Bulgarians are) against is the fact that the Macedoians deny any common origin or culture or language with us Bulgarians. I understand and I accept that today they are new nation, however it was not long time ago when Bulgarians and Macedonians were one nation... It should be accepted by our Macedonian brothers and we both should move on from it, accept our common history, language and heritage... That kind of Macedonia I ll support deffinately.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 20, 2010 5:18:57 GMT -5
By accepting Alexanders true legacy...That was to spread the Hellenic way of life and culture to the then known world...To reject it is to reject the man him self and his legacy all together... The Hellenic culture and way of life in Alexanders time has nothing to do with the culture of modern Greeks or FY Macedonians. If Greeks had the mentality of ancient Hellenes, they would be leading the world right now, not be seen as the joke of Europe. You have no clue of anything.... One thing is a fact...that Alexander the Great would chose modern Greece as his home....you people are always forgetting the language...the language is extremely important....we have dropped the Greek culture? Hell we are talking Greek in Greece...does it go any more Greek than that? Who else is like that? No one. Who cares for purity of blood... also...I see many skopjans arguing by negating everything...they think in this way they can create a new term of culture and identity which is not bound to decisive factors like traditions, language, past receptions anymore but simply to nothing...abolishing every criterion....trying to creat an "everyone is whatever he wants to be"-spirit..which is just ridiculous. Who do you think you can convince with that? You are not in the position to deny the modern Greeks' Greekness...or the Greekness of ancient Macedonians. You came just 20 years ago out of your dark holes and have the audacity to open your mouths....rewriting history....and science....since in contrast to all historians of the world...the skopjans want to make us believe that they know everything better...your luck is....that the Americans stand behind these skopjan games...backing your country up...since it was ready to sell its filthy soul to the Americans.....otherwise you would have accepted any name...Republic of shitland...believe me...
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on May 20, 2010 5:43:36 GMT -5
Why don't you acknowledge the great big elephant in the room i just brought up Kastorianos? If modern Greeks have continued the great Hellenic culture of 2000+ years ago, then why are you such losers today? You can't blame the Ottomans anymore, you have had 200 years of independence and western money, so why aren't you leaders in anything? Where's the innovation, the progress, etc? Why is your country broke? Why are Greeks so lazy and corrupt?
Is this really the great Hellenic culture which once conquered the known world? Please answer that.
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Post by Arxileas on May 20, 2010 6:28:20 GMT -5
Why don't you acknowledge the great big elephant in the room i just brought up Kastorianos? If modern Greeks have continued the great Hellenic culture of 2000+ years ago, then why are you such losers today? You can't blame the Ottomans anymore, you have had 200 years of independence and western money, so why aren't you leaders in anything? Where's the innovation, the progress, etc? Why is your country broke? Why are Greeks so lazy and corrupt?
Is this really the great Hellenic culture which once conquered the known world? Please answer that. This is an absurd logic…It’s the same as saying according to your logic that is… That the Japanese today can’t be the same as the one hundred or so years ago because they don’t act or dress like the Samurai warriors they used to be with honor and dignity BUT instead they are into electronic gadgetry are lazy and dirty and and they are loosers etc etc; and you can’t blame the westerners any more for their interference.Becoming complacent doesn’t make them any less Japanese from their ancestors, that is plain silly logic on your part. Fyi the entire world has become complacent and with corrupt leaders. No disrespect to any Japanese, just illustrating a point. .
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 20, 2010 6:29:48 GMT -5
Nikola, it is very very very hard for any outsider (like you) to truly understand the neo-greek psyche, (which is byzantine-eastern-roman-latin-christian-vlah spirit in disguise behind a greek language "front-end").
They all talk about Greek this and Greek that, BUT THEY are the true bearers of the MOST anti-greek spirit. Once you understand the hilarious fallacies behind those neo-byzantine greek-haters, you will immediately understand, why all this is about.
The plot of the whole neo-byzantine fiasco is SO COMPLICATED and well established that its own complexity of idiocy provides some camouflage smth like a safety net.
The central idea, is that the spirit responsible for KILLING the true greek spirit, cannot claim - greece - balkans - west - orthodoxy
Few people may know, that Greeks DID NOT FALL that easily... They resisted to the vlaho-roman-christian occupation... They even threatened eastern Rome (Instabul) at 727!!
The mighty Cretans lost 270,000 Ancient True Hellenic people during the "christianization" of Crete in 961...
The results of this??? A lot villages like "Topolia", "Bulgaro", and various other slavic toponyms, accompanied by a huge number of orthodox "Byzantine" churches in Crete!!!!!
NIKOLA!!!
They (byzantines) were the ones who INVITED you here... Bulgarians/Serbs/Slavs... They installed ALBANIANS in southern greece. They killed Greek spirit by forbidding anything greek, by forbidding to Greeks to study maths, techniques, crafts, engineering... They excluded greeks from the military!! from anything technical, scientific, etc...
They forced from 300->700 AD greeks to speak latin/vlah and to lose their language... their gods.. their traditions...
Now those prostitutes (eastern-romans) having lost all other people, they sell lies to the greeks, to make the greeks like we were no1 in this ANTI-greek empire!!!!
Its a f**kING mess.... and its not strange why some soft minds here (Kastorianos) cannot see beyond their nose.
(in the meantime in Skoplje, you have zebra crossings, bicycle lanes, you teach Linux to small kids... etc...., while in the country of Kastor, Byzantium, Christianity, Alexander, etc.... make a lovely surreal salad.)
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on May 20, 2010 6:41:07 GMT -5
That's my point Pyrros. I don't deny a genetic link between people of today, and people of 2000 years ago. But it's not genes which determine the superiority of a peoples, it's their mentality, their frame of mind. Whatever it was that made the Hellenes so great, modern Greeks don't have it. They passed on that culture of success to the Romans, who in turn passed it to the English, etc.
Culture evolves but sometimes it devolves.
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