Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on May 29, 2010 14:11:45 GMT -5
29 May 1453, the "hope and the joy of all Hellenes" has fallen.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 29, 2010 16:12:10 GMT -5
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on May 30, 2010 12:22:06 GMT -5
maybe if constantinople was not taken, the bolkans would ve been freed earlier...
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Post by greek1234 on Jun 2, 2010 1:06:50 GMT -5
I think 1204 was much worse, our empire was far weakened by 1453.
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Post by restless1gr on Jun 2, 2010 1:26:42 GMT -5
I agree Greek1234... So many people looted us and are still looting us, while we are stuck in 1453... But you see, the Franks were "cool" right? And the Crusaders were "saviors", right?
Thanks for reminding us...
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vlah
New Member
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Post by vlah on Jun 2, 2010 6:20:45 GMT -5
Byzantines didn;t give a rats ass about Greeks. Facts: - Greece was abandoned to Slav invasions from 6th to 8th Centuries Slavs didnt find any resistance (or life??) when they settled in Greece - Justinian used Slav generals (maybe he was Slav himself, same with Constantine) - For the biggest period of 500AD->1000AD++ the Byzantine army was based on Armenians - in 727 AD a great revolt broke out of the true Greeks against the eastern Rome (unfortunately the Greeks lost) - Big amounts of true Greeks in the mainland became slavicized (BY WILL) and followed the slavs in their exodus from Greece (after 800 AD) (Fallmerayer is wrong, as are his opponents. We are not slavs, we are vlahs-arvanites) - in 961 AD, the armenian General Nikiforos Fokas with his Armenian/Bulgarian soldiers, attacks Crete, slaughters 270,000 Ancient Greeks, and establishes many orthodox churches and villages like Topolia, Boulgaro, etc.. (So the only slavic establishments in Crete, are created only after a Byzantine deadly intervention....) - in every moment, Byzantium was *always* hostile to the true Greeks - after the slav exodus from the Greek penisula, Byzantines filled the void with albanians from caucasus and vlahs from Thrace (the ancestors of modern mainland Greeks), whom they made "grecophone" as the official language of the Byzantine (east roman) church. (that can explain the vast difference in expressive ability (witnessed by songs, folklore, poems, etc..) between the mainland Greece and the Aegean islands, Crete, Cyprus) Also that can explain the vast differences in folkore music between Epiros/Thessalia/Roumeli/Morias and Aegean/Crete/Cyprus/Pontos.
So, it was not only the bad "west" and bad "turks" but the bad .... "byzantines" as well. Hellenism resisted and survived only in Crete/Cyprus and some islands.
What we can do today? Stop bitching like w**res, and try to become Greek again. Because we are not really Greeks. We are "Grekophones". There is vast difference in the two.
So, i dont think that this date was a bad date. Same effect as if Instabul was bombed today. I wouldn't give a damn about it...
The eastern romans christians took what they deserved. They created so much death for the true Greeks they created too much lies and deceptions and they paid the price.
Good riddance.
Today, it is 100% comical for someone to call himself both "Romios", "Greek", "Ellinas" and worship Platon and e.g. Justianian at the same time. Almost the biggest blasphemy. A hopeless meaningless salad.
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Post by shejtani on Jun 2, 2010 6:58:24 GMT -5
history likes dates ... 1453 was just the end of a processus that had begun since the death of the emperor Basile.
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Post by Arxileas on Jun 2, 2010 7:05:44 GMT -5
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 2, 2010 7:20:14 GMT -5
I dont agree to deal in this way with the Byzantine history. You are treating the "Byzantines" as if they were just another occupying force over Greece just like the Turks later on. The Byzantines were Greek. The term "Byzantine" is artificial, it did never exist at this time. Whatever you blame them of is simulatenously an accusation to the Greeks themselves..the Greeks of the middle age.
To say the Byzantines didnt care for the Greeks (what was "Greek" at this time btw?) should correctly sound like this: The Greeks did not care for themselves at this time...and then we can discuss about it...if this these is right or not. But the initial situation must be clear.
To accuse the Emperors of letting the slavs pass the (todays) Greek territories is impudent because this shows that you dont know the exact circumstances of that time. There were good reasons to assimilate the slavs who formed a serious danger for the Empire's territorial integrity.
Also...you mustn convey the todays comprehension of nationality to the past time of the Byzantines....or the ancient Greeks....in order to educe charges from it.
People tend to magnify the ancient Greek days as flawless and better than anything that came later.....thats simply not right. What do we know of the ancient Greeks? I know that they were not able to form a united Greek Empire and that they did massacre each other for several centuries....shall that be sth to be proud of? The first consistent Greek Empire was the Byzantine Empire...which became finally (truly) Greek (now) with Herakleios I...(7th century). We could keep that huge Empire for 800 years...that was a glorious time, believe me. While the middle age is estimated to be the most backward time in European history, the Greeks had a true bloom for the most of that time...Constantinople was the capital of the world.
Ancient Greece? Ancient Greece was simply not important anymore...ancient Greece was obsolete...except for the fields of education perhaps. But politically the ancient Greeks were the last ones to form an ideal for anyone.
Its true that without 1204 there wouldnt had been a 1453 either...thats pretty sure. But the big damage that was done to us in 1453 was not the capture of the Polis per se but the following 500 years of turkish rule....which made us forgetting a lot in fields were we had always been the precursors actually. The Catholics didnt really have an interest in conquering our territories...they did just want to loot Constantinople. Most of them did only half hearted defend their conquered territories. The Turks came in order to stay...they are still our neighbours.
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vlah
New Member
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Post by vlah on Jun 2, 2010 7:27:33 GMT -5
What you suggest is what we have been learning in school, in church, etc.. However the reality begs to differ. Hellenism and Byzantine empire were two mutually contradicting spheres of power. Your theory (the prevailing one taught and advocated everywhere) has serious flaws, and thus cannot be seriously taken for granted. I gave enough data already, why dont you try to do your part and try to think about them? Also, i dont like the term "educate" at all, especially when this education cannot answer to very basic truths as witnessed by todays reality. Relating Byzantium (which was never called that way, btw, its official name was EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE) with Hellenism, just because the new Rome chose Greek as the official language, is a very stupid thing to do. Hellenism was not only language, but the whole set of values of the hellenic spirit. It was all lost after 500 AD. Speaking Greek does not make someone Greek. (just like speaking English here does not make us English/American right?)
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 2, 2010 7:31:19 GMT -5
pyrros is back with brand new malakies...
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vlah
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by vlah on Jun 2, 2010 7:34:01 GMT -5
Patrine, rikse ena ypno akoma, kala hsouna re malaka, ti ksypnhses ;D
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 2, 2010 7:36:36 GMT -5
Of course there are differences...but this "Neo-Hellenism" is an utopic movement....its sth for romantic people. Byzantinism is for the realists among us.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 2, 2010 7:38:01 GMT -5
kala katalawa ego to vlachadero epestrepse...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 2, 2010 8:16:11 GMT -5
its official name was EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE) ) i chose a small part of your bs.... Tell me which original source calls the empire exactly "Eastern Roman Empire". I don't want two just ONE! with the words Anatoliki Romaiki Autokratoria....just one and we're fine... (just to prove once again that you don't even know what a historical book is... even more an original medieval Greek source...)
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 2, 2010 8:18:08 GMT -5
Speaking Greek does not make someone Greek. (just like speaking English here does not make us English/American right?) well if you speak english as you mother tongue , you father too, your grandfather, your grand-grand-grandfather too...and you live in England, as your grandgrandfather too) very possibly you are an Englishman...
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vlah
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by vlah on Jun 2, 2010 8:33:59 GMT -5
its official name was EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE) ) i chose a small part of your bs.... Tell me which original source calls the empire exactly "Eastern Roman Empire". I don't want two just ONE! with the words Anatoliki Romaiki Autokratoria....just one and we're fine... (just to prove once again that you don't even know what a historical book is... even more an original medieval Greek source...) i leave arlekin and comsopolitan for b1tches like you. i read only academic publications (no books aimed at stupid idiots like you). About "eastern roman empire", why dont you give me one quote pre-1453 which names it Byzantine... b1tch..
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 2, 2010 8:36:32 GMT -5
i chose a small part of your bs.... Tell me which original source calls the empire exactly "Eastern Roman Empire". I don't want two just ONE! with the words Anatoliki Romaiki Autokratoria....just one and we're fine... (just to prove once again that you don't even know what a historical book is... even more an original medieval Greek source...) i leave arlekin and comsopolitan for b1tches like you. i read only academic publications (no books aimed at stupid idiots like you). About "eastern roman empire", why dont you give me one quote pre-1453 which names it Byzantine... b1tch.. who told you that it was called Byzantine...? but neither Byzantine nor "Eastern Roman Empire"... i wait for the one source... take advice from you non existant academic books.. ... minara
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vlah
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by vlah on Jun 2, 2010 8:53:11 GMT -5
i leave arlekin and comsopolitan for b1tches like you. i read only academic publications (no books aimed at stupid idiots like you). About "eastern roman empire", why dont you give me one quote pre-1453 which names it Byzantine... b1tch.. who told you that it was called Byzantine...? but neither Byzantine nor "Eastern Roman Empire"... i wait for the one source... take advice from you non existant academic books.. ... minara its amazing how you eternally try to deviate using tiny tricks... anyway, my post was not for zombies, but with people with touch of reality. Kastor said smth good. That Byznatium is the reality and this neo-hellenic movements are doomed to fail. Problem is.... this reality SUCKS, and its doomed to suck for a long time. Bastardizations never worked good in history. We have to jump over the (huge) gap and try to become Greeks again. (by Greeks i mainly mean Thinkers with love for life and not Zombies)... Things are very clear actually.
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Post by restless1gr on Jun 2, 2010 10:39:26 GMT -5
a humble oppinion: In the area where greece stands, for 2000 years there have been standing 3 great empires, that included many nations. The year 1453 in greek schools is mentionned as the year that the barbarians stole our capital. But the Empire was already corrupted and weak. Every empire has a date of expiration. The Ottoman Empire had one itself, and diminished to today's Turkey... And long before that, the greeks became christians and when the christianity became our "official religion", emperors like Theodosios destroyed with their own hands ancient statues and sites. What i want to say is that cultures,religions, empires rise & fall, but the question is, what is our present situation of the greeks as we are now, whether we are of vlch, cretan, slav, ancient greek roots???
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