Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 30, 2010 8:48:59 GMT -5
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 30, 2010 11:49:27 GMT -5
^^ what he writes about the Serbian past of Epiros and Albania is 100% correct. I dont know of any other slavs in the world who say "Jovan" for John (Sv Jovan Manastir) and Suvo for dry (SuvoSelo in Zagori).
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on May 30, 2010 14:36:53 GMT -5
^^ what he writes about the Serbian past of Epiros and Albania is 100% correct. I dont know of any other slavs in the world who say "Jovan" for John (Sv Jovan Manastir) and Suvo for dry (SuvoSelo in Zagori). This is a complicated matter. we cannot know for certain that this is a sign of Serbian presence; a simple sound doesnt disclose that much, though it is an interesting subject (and not as simple as you, Pyrros, try to suggest). To illustrate, the toponyms in Kosova of Slavic origins that involve words such as the ones above involving the letters 'h' vs 'v', where Serbs of Serbia & Kosova are supposed to go with 'v' rather than 'h' (e.g. Serbian duvan versus Bosnian duhan for tobacco), actually go with 'h', like Suhogrlo, Suhodol, Suhareka etc, as opposed to Suvogrlo, Suvodol, Suvareka etc. What do we make out of that? There's no way of knowing for certain that the 'v' sound as opposed to the 'h' sound didnt also exist in Bulgarian at some point ... these things change over time, and one form can easily dominate over another, but that doesnt mean the other never existed. There might have been Bulgarian dialects where they said 'suvo' as opposed to 'suho', just like Serbs in Bosnia perhaps go with 'suho' as opposed to 'suvo' like their countrymen in Serbia.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 31, 2010 3:55:35 GMT -5
^ Keep in mind Donnie there was a thing called proto-balkan slavic, this was the mother language of all balkan slavs. You must forget about Bulgars, why?, because up until the formation of OCS practically the slavs of Bulgaria, vardar, serbia etc...spoke one language. Before OCS you must look into the HISTORICAL aspect, not by todays modern languages of the slavs, why?, because each balkan slavic group diverged/evolved according to pressures of location.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 31, 2010 3:57:22 GMT -5
"Ptolemy's Orini and our countrymen Goranies" Gorans, were the last serbs to become islamised, today they are bosniaks
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2010 4:04:11 GMT -5
^ Keep in mind Donnie there was a thing called proto-balkan slavic, this was the mother language of all balkan slavs. You must forget about Bulgars, why?, because up until the formation of OCS practically the slavs of Bulgaria, vardar, serbia etc...spoke one language. Before OCS you must look into the HISTORICAL aspect, not by todays modern languages of the slavs, why?, because each balkan slavic group diverged/evolved according to pressures of location. Novi, that 100% true. It is documented in the paper about the great plague of 541 AD, where it says that at 541AD-800AD the slavic language was one language and that the dialectic differences were absent. It even says that in 6th century slavic language in southern/central/eastern europe was smth like "Lingua Franca".
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on May 31, 2010 5:08:13 GMT -5
Good links Novi!
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on May 31, 2010 5:15:19 GMT -5
^^ what he writes about the Serbian past of Epiros and Albania is 100% correct. I dont know of any other slavs in the world who say "Jovan" for John (Sv Jovan Manastir) and Suvo for dry (SuvoSelo in Zagori). This is a complicated matter. we cannot know for certain that this is a sign of Serbian presence; a simple sound doesnt disclose that much, though it is an interesting subject (and not as simple as you, Pyrros, try to suggest). To illustrate, the toponyms in Kosova of Slavic origins that involve words such as the ones above involving the letters 'h' vs 'v', where Serbs of Serbia & Kosova are supposed to go with 'v' rather than 'h' (e.g. Serbian duvan versus Bosnian duhan for tobacco), actually go with 'h', like Suhogrlo, Suhodol, Suhareka etc, as opposed to Suvogrlo, Suvodol, Suvareka etc. What do we make out of that? There's no way of knowing for certain that the 'v' sound as opposed to the 'h' sound didnt also exist in Bulgarian at some point ... these things change over time, and one form can easily dominate over another, but that doesnt mean the other never existed. There might have been Bulgarian dialects where they said 'suvo' as opposed to 'suho', just like Serbs in Bosnia perhaps go with 'suho' as opposed to 'suvo' like their countrymen in Serbia. i agree. by the way pyrro tnx for the links - very interesting...
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2010 5:17:45 GMT -5
Thanx
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2010 5:21:38 GMT -5
by the way pyrro tnx for the links - very interesting... thx, currently i am studying the plague paper... there is an ocean of great scientific historical finds in universities, which will never take the official shape of a class-book or even a commodity book to be found on stores. If you see, there is a greek guy Peter Charanis, who did extensive research about slavs in Greece. The greeks simply chose one paragraph of his which talked about "assimilation" and made him a professor in the uni of Athens. If they had read ALL his work, they would probably burn him alive with his work... it seems balkans still live in dark ages...
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on May 31, 2010 5:27:36 GMT -5
I mean Pyross ... I know of all the historical quotes used in this literature... it's just further interpretations but pretty good. I wonder if it's possible that further written evidence will ever emerge regarding such topics. I mean hopefully there are old scripts written that mention the Serbian name somewhere that noone has ever passed on yet. It's only really a handful of quotes mentioning the Serbian name prior to the 10th century so just one more little mention in some ancient script somewhere could have the potential to shed so much more light or open a can of worms.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2010 5:40:39 GMT -5
^^ Its not only that Arsenije. Its also medical advances who play some role. if you read the plague paper, only recently were historians able to have a solid simulation model upon which to base their interpretation of the 541 events.
Now regarding Serbs per se. I think that Serbs were maybe one of the strong slavic tribes who managed to provide some kind of administration to the already existing slavs of the balkans. Thus one can find ekavica/jekavica/jakavica all mixed together in the slavic Greek toponyms, from north down to the very south. What the Serbs managed to do for central slavs, the Bulgars managed to do with the eastern slavs and their thracian subjects. The hierarchy was Bulgar>Slav>Thracian, with slavs being the cultural majority.
I think the rest of the slavs had the same fate under Avars. Some say that Serbs freed slavs by defeating the Avars, and thus united them (slavs) against the other great tyrant : Byzantium.
I think after 9th century, Byzantium makes huge efforts to deslavicize its territory by introducing the albanians, and by forceful hellenizations of vlahs (my tribe, whether i like it or not), while at the same time violently breaking the last enclaves of ancient pure greeks in Crete island... Thats why a lot of neo-greeks believe that the greek orthodox church and state are just greko-phone romans, and true greek spirit was lost for good some time in 961 AD... Arsenije i dont know if you will find it useful, but it is true that after the Byzantine christian (Roman) triumph over the cursed (true Greek) island of Crete, they, byzantines who had an armenian general , established Bulgarians in Crete, built churches and monastirs and created villages like Bulgaro,Topolia and Toplo!!! !!!!! YES!!! the Gods of Kastorianos and Patrinos were killing Ancient Greeks and establishing bulgarian villages in the heart of the last alive Greek spirit!!!
Dirty empires, they are always the same...
and Freedom (= Serbdom + Cretan spirit) was always about independence...
So, the great powers, always supported insignificant tribes (albanians, vlahs, etc..) at expense of the advanced and FREE nations...
Bro, once you had laughed when i talked about "VIVID" slav language... take a close look to those papers and tell me what you think!
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on May 31, 2010 5:49:03 GMT -5
Pyrros that sounds quite plausible. Yeah and the plague one is interesting as well. I remember someone started a topic on the plague a while ago. I wanted to find out what effect it had on the Balkans but I don't think there was anything like this... Pretty straight forward with the perspective there though - plague devastates Balkan population leaving it open for slavs to invade . That's a pretty Greek perspective so I don't know... however by all accounts it does sound as though it was quite devastating to the Roman Empire so this simplistic view could be fairly truthful. I'll read it more thoroughly next week when I have time.
|
|
|
Post by tsompanos on May 31, 2010 19:20:19 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by jonleka on May 31, 2010 19:40:17 GMT -5
Advanced free nations, Slavs were very well recorded when they came to Balkans and I only read the opposite what you stated.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2010 22:58:37 GMT -5
Advanced free nations, Slavs were very well recorded when they came to Balkans and I only read the opposite what you stated. read more.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 1, 2010 0:47:56 GMT -5
Pretty straight forward with the perspective there though - plague devastates Balkan population leaving it open for slavs to invade . That's a pretty Greek perspective so I don't know... however by all accounts it does sound as though it was quite devastating to the Roman Empire so this simplistic view could be fairly truthful. I'll read it more thoroughly next week when I have time. The paper emerged after the latest developments in plague epidemic simulation models. I don't think that there is anything Greek in that. The author is Pole, i think. The official neo-Greek stance would be: - there was no plague - there were no slavs
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 1, 2010 3:44:18 GMT -5
"Now regarding Serbs per se. I think that Serbs were maybe one of the strong slavic tribes who managed to provide some kind of administration to the already existing slavs of the balkans. Thus one can find ekavica/jekavica/jakavica all mixed together in the slavic Greek toponyms, from north down to the very south. What the Serbs managed to do for central slavs, the Bulgars managed to do with the eastern slavs and their thracian subjects. The hierarchy was Bulgar>Slav>Thracian, with slavs being the cultural majority."
Thats 100% correct, the serbs did absorb her undifferentiated slavs of vardar, serbia, albania etc....while Bulgars ruled over her slavic subjects of modern bulgaria. Well said brate!.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 2, 2010 7:51:33 GMT -5
"--------------------> bulls**t !!!!"
You know what Shetjani, my uncles town in northern kosovo *BOROVA* is found in the Korcha region of Sth Albania.
|
|
|
Post by ulf on Jun 2, 2010 16:23:00 GMT -5
shejtani, you mean BulgarIANs? Bulgars weren't Slavs
|
|