CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Jul 31, 2010 21:46:26 GMT -5
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 0:38:02 GMT -5
I wonder if Mr. Josipovic will be participating in the celebration, maybe this event is too "fascist".
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 0:39:10 GMT -5
I didn't know that a country celebrates ethnic cleansing, genocide and the eradication of one ethnic group from out of that country.
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 0:50:55 GMT -5
More like celebrating the eradication of an ethnic group which occupied and committed genocide in that Republic's borders.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 0:53:01 GMT -5
More like celebrating the eradication of an ethnic group which occupied and committed genocide in that Republic's borders. So it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 people in Jasenovac Camp?
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 0:57:22 GMT -5
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 0:59:45 GMT -5
More like celebrating the eradication of an ethnic group which occupied and committed genocide in that Republic's borders. So it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 people in Jasenovac Camp? Tell me what year was Oluja. Once you've answered that question, you will find that playing the jasenovac card makes no sense.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 1:03:22 GMT -5
So it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 people in Jasenovac Camp? Tell me what year was Oluja. Once you've answered that question, you will find that playing the jasenovac card makes no sense. But you said that Serbs committed genocide in Croatia. So i asked you if it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 innocent people in Jasenovac.
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 1:08:08 GMT -5
Tell me what year was Oluja. Once you've answered that question, you will find that playing the jasenovac card makes no sense. But you said that Serbs committed genocide in Croatia. So i asked you if it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 innocent people in Jasenovac. We are talking about 1991-1995. Are you saying Serbs did not commit genocide in Croatia and that Croatians celebrating Oluja are celebrating jasenovac?
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 1:13:12 GMT -5
But you said that Serbs committed genocide in Croatia. So i asked you if it was the Serbs that killed over 650,000 innocent people in Jasenovac. We are talking about 1991-1995. Are you saying Serbs did not commit genocide in Croatia and that Croatians celebrating Oluja are celebrating jasenovac? Exactly what i said, Serbs never committed genocide. But i didn't know you guys celebrated the Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide being committed by Croats and Croatia back in 1995 on the Serbs in which resulted in over 600,000 Serbs being kicked out of their homes in Srpska Krajina. So since the committing of ethnic cleansing and genocide on the Serbs in 1995, Oluja which resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide has been celebrated for 15 years now? So this Oluja, is Croatia the first to celebrate ethnic cleansing and genocide and making it a national holiday?
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Aug 1, 2010 5:57:58 GMT -5
I wonder if Mr. Josipovic will be participating in the celebration, maybe this event is too "fascist". Nedjelja, 25 Srpanj 2010 12:27 U povodu Dana pobjede i Dana domovinske zahvalnosti i Dana Hrvatskih Branitelja te 15. obljetnice VRO Oluje, predsjednik Ivo Josipović primio je izaslanstvo hrvatskih branitelja, sudionika te veličanstvene vojno-redarstvene akcije. Govoreći o Oluji, predsjednik je rekao kako su to bili dani ponosa i slave koje nitko ne smije dovoditi u pitanje.Oluju niko ne smije dovoditi u pitanje naglasio je Josipović.Nažalost zbog jednog malog dijela događanja koji nisu bili dobro došli često se dovodi u pitanje cijela operacija što je netočno i nije dobro s povijesnog, političkog i moralnog stanovišta. Žalimo za svakom nevinom žrtvom, za svakim nepotrebnim razaranjem, ali našu briljantnu pobjedu ne dovodimo u pitanje, kazao je Josipović. Prigodom svog obraćanja u pozdravnom govoru svim nazočnim hrvatskim braniteljima Josipović je propustio da se osim Dana Pobjedei Dana Domovinske zahvalnosti na taj dan 05.kolovoza u Kninu slavi i Dan onih koji su bili na prijemu, a to je upravo njihov "Dan hrvatskih branitelja". Također je u obraćanju predsjednika Josipovića izostalo još i to da je na Hrvatsku izvršena agresija te da se dobro zna da je tu agresiju izvršila JNA i srbočetičke paravojne formacije koje su nanijele velike štete,žrtve i razaranja Hrvatskoj koja je vodila pošteni obrambeni Domovinski rat koji joj je nametnula velikosrpska politika ratnog zločinca Slobodana Miloševića i njegovih istomišljenika, što je Predsjednik Josipović zasigurno ostavio za svoje obraćanje cijeloj Naciji na samoj proslavi 05.kolovoza u Kninu. domovinskirat.hr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2903:predsjednik-josipovi-primio-izaslanstvo-branitelja-sudionika-vojno-redarstvene-akcije-oluja&catid=4:novosti
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 9:39:27 GMT -5
I love Croatia and Croats ! Croatian army did what it had to do against the terrorists who had massacred Croats and ethnically cleansed them. ps: there were 550 000 Serbs in the whole Croatia in 1991 (referendum) so I wonder how could the Croatian army expulse 600 000 Serbs from Krajna ... and they actually fled on their own ! remember ? Hello Shiptare. So your saying the Serbs wee massacreing Civilians this whole time and even massacre'd their own people?? According to this video, it was the other way around and the 600,000 Serbs fled Croatia because they had no choice, they were being ethnically cleansed from their homes, persecutted and those that stayed had been raped or killed. Which ever country celebrates genocide and ethnic cleansing is seriously barbaric and these two videos show what Serbs had to endure during the war and during Operation Storm in 1995. And this is what Croatia is celebrating?? Celebrating the killing of Serbs and the ethnic cleansing of 600,000 Serbs. From what it looks like, you along those are thousands of years backwards and primitive.
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 13:46:17 GMT -5
We are talking about 1991-1995. Are you saying Serbs did not commit genocide in Croatia and that Croatians celebrating Oluja are celebrating jasenovac? Exactly what i said, Serbs never committed genocide. But i didn't know you guys celebrated the Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide being committed by Croats and Croatia back in 1995 on the Serbs in which resulted in over 600,000 Serbs being kicked out of their homes in Srpska Krajina. So since the committing of ethnic cleansing and genocide on the Serbs in 1995, Oluja which resulted in ethnic cleansing and genocide has been celebrated for 15 years now? So this Oluja, is Croatia the first to celebrate ethnic cleansing and genocide and making it a national holiday? Serbs never committed genocide?? Well I would have to strongly disagree on that one. The Serbs kicked out of krajina had no problem kicking out the Croatian's that lived there and moving in Serbian settlers from Serbia proper into the former homes of Croatian families. They also had no problem cleansing villages and destroying Vukovar in the process. So I would say that the day the Croatians finally managed to liberate these occupied cities is a day of celebration. Oluja was a clean operation that liberated the Croatian republic from an occupying army. Serbs weren't kicked out. Belgrade told them to leave.
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Post by spartacus on Aug 1, 2010 13:48:41 GMT -5
@ Stanko
Using Serbian TV as a source is what I would call wikipedia on steroids. The same news agency that didn't know Tudjman was a Partizan general.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 1, 2010 22:56:58 GMT -5
Serbs never committed Jaseovac. Serbs never joined the Axis or collaborated with the Nazis and Serbs in 1995 definently never committed the Oluja Operation Storm in which resulted in many lives being taken away by the Croatian Army aswell as 600,000 Serbs being force to leave their homes in Croatia as they had no choice but to leave or face persecuttion, those that stayed have either been killed or raped and this is what your country celebrates every year. Croatia celebrates the killing of Serbs, Burnig Serb houses, villages and cleansing out all the Serbs out of Croatia. So your saying that every Serbian including babies, kids, womans, teenages and elderly people were also armed and they were shooting at Croatians and kicking them out of Croatia?? So your telling me even kids were armed and they were part of the RSK army? And also your telling me that Serbs from Serbia proper only began to migrate into Croata during the 1991-1995 war?? So before the war, there was no Croatians living there and the Krajina region was 100% Croatians living there?? But According to the 1981 census, the Serbs in Krajina were still an overwhelming majority as they were through out 1995. The Serbs lived in Krajina for centuries and through out the Austro-Hungary where they were invited by the Austro Hungary to fight off the Turks and to keep them in the bay. In return Serbs were awarded Krajina. So your telling me No Serbs lived in Vukovar and that it was the Serbian Army that just came into Vukovar and kicked out all the Croatians and Serbs from Vojvodina moved into Vukovar? I am suprised you guys do not celebrate Jasenovac and call Jasenovac a liberation. Serbs weren't kicked out. Belgrade told them to leave.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Aug 2, 2010 3:34:33 GMT -5
^^ Martic orders serbs to leave once the front line held by the serbs (Dinara Mountains) is penetrated. Kronologija dokazuje zašto su Srbi donijeli odluku o potpunoj evakuaciji stanovništva. Jasno se vidi da su Srbi sve do poslijepodneva 4. kolovoza vjerovali da će izdržati. No, tada je 7. gardijska brigada probila liniju na Dinari, oko 14 sati. Kada su Mrkšić i Martić dobili dojavu da je Markač probio Velebit (oko 15.30 sati), da je mogao nesmetano ići sa specijalcima do Gračaca i Otrića, a Gotovina zaobilaziti sa 7. i 4. gardijskom i spojiti se na Otriću (jedina komunikacija), počinje evakuacija, a ne HV-ov progon. U dogovoru s M. Babićem u Beogradu Mrkšić dogovara – civilno stanovništvo treba evakuirati.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Aug 2, 2010 6:57:10 GMT -5
This is what Croatia celebrates each year.
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Post by vinjak on Aug 2, 2010 15:09:08 GMT -5
zašto su Srbi donijeli odluku o potpunoj evakuaciji stanovništva.The People where not forced to evacuate, the Army was ordered to facilitate the evacuation two very different things. This action was one of the more responsible actions of the war had the Muslims and indeed the Croats allowed the same for there citizens maybe the toll would have been lower but I do understand that some eggs need to be cracked to make an omelet . Just dont play the stupid card. Had the people stayed no doubt there would have been acts of revenge carried out, we all have heard from the trials that a certain General had no control over what was happening on the ground plus History has taught what happens when the victor gains control in our situations. I can only imagine how many more exhumations would be needed had the people not run, President of the Association of the Families of the Missing and Victims from Krajina and Croatia Čedomir Marić warned that the slow pace of the exhumation of bodies of victims from was unacceptable, adding that there were more than 1,352 victims who are yet to be exhumed, and were not buried in mass graves of the 2,100 that were reported missing. “Speed up the process, do not hurt us even more with postponing the solving of the fate of our loved ones, and especially do not hide the locations,” Marić said, addressing the Croatian government. President of the Serbian Government’s Missing Persons Commission, Veljko Odalović, said that he expressed his disappointment at the dynamics of the exhumations in a meeting with Croatian officials, especially considering that there were more than 400 known burial locations. www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=02&nav_id=68845So with that all said and done the Croats have a right to celebrate in there own country, all I would ask is dont play stupid.
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Post by spartacus on Aug 2, 2010 18:28:05 GMT -5
I don't understand how Serbs always have the tendency to go back to WWII when discussing the war in 1991. Jasenovac happened 50 years before oluja, most of the people who lived in the 1940's are dead, in no way does that justify Serbs kicking Croats out of their houses, blockading streets and provoking a conflict, committing genocide, trying to destroy a democratically elected government, and refusing to obey even Yugoslavian law which passed the federal presidency to Croatia that year!!
The Serbs in Krajina were offered autonomy by Tudjman!! Tudjman said "hey, you could have your own krajina state with its own police force, government, and currency, just stop stealing more Croatian territory." But that was not enough for the extremist leaders who wanted to carve out the entire country!
And Tudjman even announced in Oluja that there would be no harm committed to any Serbian civilians, but all rights would be respected. And I would doubt this was just a ploy considering how Belgrade propaganda was calling Croatians fleeing their homes Ustase. Belgrade tells the krajina serbs to leave so their propaganda machine can say "Ustase kick Serbs out"
Serbs leaving Krajina is nothing compared to Vukovar, Srebenica, or Otacac.
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Post by vinjak on Aug 2, 2010 18:56:42 GMT -5
The Serbs in Krajina were offered autonomy by Tudjman!! Tudjman said "hey, you could have your own krajina state with its own police force, government, and currency, just stop stealing more Croatian territory." But that was not enough for the extremist leaders who wanted to carve out the entire country!
100% true although Tudjman was forced to offer this Autonomy even Serbia (Milosevic) advised them to take the deal but they did not which is why Milosevic pulled all support and Oluja was given the green light.
Was this a traitorous act by Milosevic ? considering Oluja could not have happened without Milosevic's ok...this is a open question.
And Tudjman even announced in Oluja that there would be no harm committed to any Serbian civilians, but all rights would be respected.
No matter whether he meant it or not as we have seen the powers really had no control over the aftermath of battle, the ones who believed Tudjman are the ones that are missing now or in the graves Serbia is trying to get Croatia to exhume.
Serbs leaving Krajina is nothing compared to Vukovar, Srebenica, or Otacac.
True but this is because the army was ordered to enable evacuations of civilians something both the Muslims and Croats did not, Partly to have a greater impact on the cameras and partly to keep people there as a bargaining chip. As I said I do understand the strategy but dont act stupid.
Belgrade tells the krajina serbs to leave so their propaganda machine can say "Ustase kick Serbs out"
Did you actually read my post ? It served no purpose for Belgrade to order evacuations in actual fact it was detrimental...again I will repeat for you The People where not forced to evacuate, the Army was ordered to facilitate the evacuation
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