Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 19, 2010 6:01:06 GMT -5
Arsenije, here in Athens, there must be over 500,000 of albies. There are few Serbs.
Among Serbs, surely one out of 20 or 30 is over 2m tall, while you might encounter 100s of albies all below 170cm.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 19, 2010 6:08:47 GMT -5
Arsenije, here in Athens, there must be over 500,000 of albies. There are few Serbs. Among Serbs, surely one out of 20 or 30 is over 2m tall, while you might encounter 100s of albies all below 170cm. Pyrros, the only people in the world who wouldn't believe that would be Albanians. Oh and maybe Coon. I think Albanians need some way to make them selves feel better for the short(cough)comings shown of them through modern history. Do you notice of all Balkan peoples the ones who so very overwhealming talk about being "white people" are Albanians? Such a broad term they've latched on to when nothing is left.
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Post by ulf on Sept 19, 2010 6:16:47 GMT -5
Arsenije, here in Athens, there must be over 500,000 of albies. There are few Serbs. Among Serbs, surely one out of 20 or 30 is over 2m tall, while you might encounter 100s of albies all below 170cm. At my last vacation in Ohrid, I also went in a neighboring city of Struga(which is mainly Albanian city now), and the thing you said above was more then clear
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 19, 2010 6:21:52 GMT -5
The Avars were Turkic, they didn't just disappear.. they were absorbed by others, and have without a doubt left at least some trace. During the Second Bulgarian Empire, Tsar Kaloian had sent Cuman contingents to assist Serbia against the Magyars. Many Cumans were settled in what is present day Southern Serbia and Northern Macedonia, though I guess that would still classify as contribution to the Bulgarian ethnogenesis and not necessarily the Serbian one. Not to mention that during Ottoman Rule the Turks would have likely left some genetic traces on the Balkans in all countries. To entirely deny all such genetic contributions is just not logical. The modern day Bulgarian ethnos is formed by three main ethnic groups, Bulgars, Slavs, and Thracians.. however, there are maybe some 10 other ethnic groups that have contributed to our ethnogensis to some extent or another. The modern day Greeks are also the result of the ethnic amalgamation of a whole bunch of different ethnic groups. The modern day Turks are also a blend of many different ethnic groups. Generally, the greater the empires of the past the greater the mix. A modern day example would be the US. It's like trying to say that Americans today are in fact English, or mainly English; and we all know that you can't really determine which ethnic group is the dominant component of what constitutes a modern day American. I think that the Irranic tribes have played a significant role in the early ethnogenesis of modern day Balkan Slavs. You left me speechless after this. Such ignorance....and I used to thought of you as one of smarter members of this forum Ulf, I thought Asen had some good points. Which part exactly do you think is wrong? Also, I think you are being too dissmisive of Sarmatian theory. Three seperate historians mentioned the Serboi (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy). And btw almost everything we discuss on this forum is unproven, especially concerning our origins.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 19, 2010 6:56:25 GMT -5
Ulf, I thought Asen had some good points. Which part exactly do you think is wrong? Also, I think you are being too dissmisive of Sarmatian theory. Three seperate historians mentioned the Serboi (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy). And btw almost everything we discuss on this forum is unproven, especially concerning our origins. Another proove that there are reasonable (and unracist) guys among the Serbs (true Serbs)...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 19, 2010 7:08:20 GMT -5
Nikola,
Well either that or local dinarics have been influenced by other local phenotypes. For instance the Montenegrins although they fall under the dinaric classification, are perhaps not typical dinarics bcs there seems to have been a local Borreby or Upper Palaeolithic survivor element that mixed with 'regular' dinarics, creating a special local type that is a dinaric but with a wider face and more robust built and generally taller stature. Likewise, the longer skulls and darker pigmentation of southern Serbs might be attributed to mixture with regular mediterraneans which according to Coon was accummulated in contemporary Macedonia, where like in Bulgaria you'll find a higher instance of regular mediterraneans.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 19, 2010 7:12:29 GMT -5
Ive always been under the impression that Serbia had a strong mediterranean presence, from reading but also from what Ive seen, Serbs are particularly more mediterranean and darker featured when compared to for example Bosnians and Croats. Even my non-Balkan friend has commented on how Serbs and Bosnians (as in Bosniaks) here in Sweden look different, with Bosniaks being lighter ... and the Serbian community in Sweden is largely from Bosnia & Krajina, arguably lighter than Serbs from Serbia proper (minus Vojvodina, where I'd guess people are pretty light since the original Slavic element would be stronger). Coon seems to be of this opinion as well; Well first of all Donnie you are talking siht, and second of all you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not going to concern myself too much with what an Albanian living in Sweden with Bosniak Muslim friends is going to come up with anecdotally. It's more than obvious where your bias will lie. And Krajina/Bosnia Serbs are not notably different than other Serbs. Vojvodina was largely populated by Serbs from SE Serbia, & Krajina largely by Serbs from former Raska (Montenegro/Hercegovina). Hercegovinan Serbs were always there. So that's the part you don't know what you are talking about. The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency. Whatever Donnie. You guys are Med and it's quite logical since you are far more native to the Balkans. True Med we could have only inherited from people such as yours. I can see why Albanians are massive fans of Coon but he got a lot of stuff completely and utterly wrong with which has unfortunately allowed Albanians to feed them selves pretty lies. Dinaric perhaps with a little adjustment is far more appropriate for any one of the south slav peoples over Albanians. Denikers map shows mostly slavic people as Dinaric. Albanians are the odd ones out in the sea, which also makes Ulf suggestion (which I though of long ago) with you guys being Dinaricised very plausible. A slavic influence when looking at your toponyms for one is really undeniable. Concerning just skin pigmentation, honestly I think Serbs are darker even than Albanians and Greeks, as for the rest of the stuff concerning physical anthropology, Albanians fail. You guys are a bunch of boxing, fighting, gangster Meds and we are Dinaric basketballers. I know it must suck that we got the better deal but never mind you can feel better about having rosy cheeks and looking like "white people" in that way only Albanians can carry on about so much while we enjoy tanning our tannable skin every summer. LOL, why so p!ssed. You seem more eager to convince yourself than me. I simply stated my own opinion based on my own observations which seems to find some backup in the works of known anthropologists such as Coon. Not to mention you yourself described Serbs as darker coloured than Croats for example, what would you attribute that to, if not a mediterranean influence?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 19, 2010 7:26:26 GMT -5
great bulgaria bla bla great bulgaria bla bla .. bad poor Serbia bla bla bla South Serbs are bulgarians bla bla bla Greece was bulgarian bla bla You left me speechless after this. Such ignorance....and I used to thought of you as one of smarter members of this forum On the contrary, there wasn't a single moment that i regarded Asen anything else but a pure, wooden, repetitive propagandist. The guy is a machine. He searches no truth. He has formed the truth already in his small brain and tries to enforce upon people's mind by the old nazi method of endless repetition. Aziz (his "artistic" nick name) will never say "Ahhh i didn't know that, or thanx for letting me know, or i'll buy you some cevapce+shumensko pivo next time you visit Bulgaria"... No, Aziz is the dogmatic robot who will never deviate from what he is made to work for.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 19, 2010 7:27:09 GMT -5
At my last vacation in Ohrid, I also went in a neighboring city of Struga(which is mainly Albanian city now), and the thing you said above was more then clear How did you find the height of the Macedonians? Btw, I agree with your impression on the Albanians. During my visit, I too thought they looked generally darker and more southern. But Albanians from Albania might be different.
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Post by ulf on Sept 19, 2010 7:27:48 GMT -5
You left me speechless after this. Such ignorance....and I used to thought of you as one of smarter members of this forum Ulf, I thought Asen had some good points. Which part exactly do you think is wrong? Also, I think you are being too dissmisive of Sarmatian theory. Three seperate historians mentioned the Serboi (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy). OMG, I even have to explain this... I dismiss all theories that can't be sustained with significant evidence. Just because those guys mentioned some Serboi tribe in Black Sea region of modern day Russia means nothing. There was also a tribe in south of Germany and part of Austria that was called by the name Suebi(similar to Srbi) but no one claims to them to be forefathers of modern day Serbs. How about that Or the fact there were HUGE amount of pre-Slav locals in Serbia...Hmmm lets start counting: Old Europe cultures, Greeks, Dacians, Celts, Romans, Gepids and Goths. And my god, I think that Byzantine emperor Heraclius knew where did Serbs came from...after all he called them for help against invaders. I won't even start with Serbian connection with West Slavs because I wrote like N comments on this forum about all aspects of it. PS: "...Sorabi, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur..." transl. "Serbs, who inhabit a large part of Dalmatia" -Royal Frankish Annals, 822 How about that?!?!
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 19, 2010 7:32:08 GMT -5
Ulf, I thought Asen had some good points. Which part exactly do you think is wrong? Also, I think you are being too dissmisive of Sarmatian theory. Three seperate historians mentioned the Serboi (Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy). And btw almost everything we discuss on this forum is unproven, especially concerning our origins. Another proove that there are reasonable (and unracist) guys among the Serbs (true Serbs)... How would you feel if the forum was stormed by japanese or koreans who would arbitrarily make judgements of who is "pure" bulgarian and who is not? Leskovcani say "mleko", krajsnici say "mlijeko" big deal, and western "bugari" say "mleko" while "real" bulgari say "mlyako". The phonetic distance between mleko and mljeko is absolutely justified by the 1,000 km between the two places. HOW THE FUCK is the greater phonetic distance between MLEKO and MLYAKO is justified in just some kilometers? Hold on with your "real" serb fairytale cause the same fairytale is going to bite you in your ass.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 19, 2010 7:35:33 GMT -5
pyrro start speaking flent bulgarian and then try to educate me about my people language. tnx in advance.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 19, 2010 7:38:55 GMT -5
^^^ And you try to learn some Serb history, and try to have better experience of the local Serbs/Makedonians before jumping into idiotic conclusions. (you yourself admitted that you have never been in Makedonia, yet, this does not prevent you from writing books about the bulgarian ethnicity of maks)
PS i know better bulgarian than most greeks you will ever meet.
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Post by ulf on Sept 19, 2010 8:05:41 GMT -5
At my last vacation in Ohrid, I also went in a neighboring city of Struga(which is mainly Albanian city now), and the thing you said above was more then clear How did you find the height of the Macedonians? Btw, I agree with your impression on the Albanians. During my visit, I too thought they looked generally darker and more southern. But Albanians from Albania might be different. I don't think Albanians from Albania differ too much from their counterparts in western part of Macedonia. Perhaps only those in north-eastern part of Albania. Much like its the case for Serbs in and out of Serbia. About height, generally they were shorter and stockier then Macedonians and Serbs I saw in Ohrid, that's how. The same was the case on Serbian/Macedonian border, where I waited for 2 hours in column at Macedonian part of border
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Post by odel on Sept 19, 2010 8:52:47 GMT -5
Well albanians in Macedonia don't have very good living conditions so that might be why as the ones I know that are diaspora are all pretty tall guys. Anyway the Serbs I have seen in Kosova aren't exactly the tallest people on earth either. Especially when I was in Brezovica I noticed that they weren't very tall. In Kosova from what I've seen Albanians are taller then the Serbs usually we are usually more dinaric too, a lot of Serbs have a more eastern med look. Novak Djokovic and Nikola Tesla are eastern meds and especially Djokovic looks quite typical Serb like and according to this site www.amorsite.shorturl.com/ they are good examples of eastern meds. As for one poster complaining about the use of Coon, well while he had his wrongs he was maybe the only anthropologist that went to look at the albanians, he measured their height, sitting height etc and I think that Coon should be taken much more serious than some Serb that probably hasn't seen more than 4-5 albanians in real life. The first Serb I ever saw was this tiny, very dark guy with glasses named Sasha. Oh, also according to Coon northern-albanians were 170 cm on average while Serbs were 168 cm on average, this while it's likely that these albanians were living under much worse conditions than the average Serb. Albanians from Kosova I'd guess would be taller than 170 cm on average at this time because in northern-Albania there was quite a big difference between the different tribes, the smallest of them at 167-168, the tallest of them 173-174 and I think that in Kosova there wasn't much difference between the regions, they might actually have been around 173-174 as from what I've seen my two grandfathers generation isn't small at all atleast when I see my grandfathers and their brothers and family that is more distant.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 19, 2010 9:11:07 GMT -5
^^^ And you try to learn some Serb history, and try to have better experience of the local Serbs/Makedonians before jumping into idiotic conclusions. (you yourself admitted that you have never been in Makedonia, yet, this does not prevent you from writing books about the bulgarian ethnicity of maks) PS i know better bulgarian than most greeks you will ever meet. i havent been in Macedonia, but I know over 30 Macedonians from Macedonia and I ve met alot other Macedonians. I ve had enough experience with them to be able to draw my conclusion. I ve been also in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 19, 2010 9:13:22 GMT -5
Odel,
The guy complaining about Coon was Arsenije, for some reason he doesnt want to be associated Meds, and Coon said that Serbs were heavily influenced by Meds.
Back then Albs (the northern ones and in Kosova) were taller than Serbs from Serbia ,, if this has changed, it is doubtlessly bcs of the comparatively poorer living conditions in Kosova and Albania. This is also seen in comparing the younger generations with the older ones, you usually see the sons being significiantly taller than their fathers. Just yesterday I was visited by my uncle, who himself is 6ft (183 cm) .... his son who is just fifteen is already 6'4ft (193 cm), having outgrown his dad with ten centimetres. The same tendency Ive seen in most other cases as well, whereas earlier it was not always so ,, when Coon measured the northern highlanders, he mentioned that our forefathers height had been the same and had changed little from generation to generation bcs the conditions were virtually the same ,, but this is changing slowly.
Overall, with Albs, the tallest are the Kosovars and those of N. Albania, which isnt weird since Kosova is only artificially divided from Malesia and is ethnically, culturally and geographically a mere continuation of that mountainous massif.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 19, 2010 9:48:59 GMT -5
"Pyrros man it's awkward listening to you & especially Novi constantly flame the Bulgarians... especially when you should know that 99% of Serbs simply view Bulgarians as a similar friendly slavic Orthodox neighbour." Yeah, they are great friendly neighbours they love us to recognise my serbian kosovo region as a second Albanian state, they claim half of serbia as their territory, their nationalistic party is calling on serbia to give up their ancient western outlands.....while we naive and dumb idiots have given Bulgarian businessmen to build factories over in their ancient capital of Nish. Why would you care anyway, as long as your republica srpska is not effected, whats to worry, just keep up the friendly relations and serbia will be reduced to only republica srpska. deluded fool!. Novi, Arsenije is just an individual and in no way represents the RS-BIH, nor the Serbs from Bosnia. The case of Deucaon (a genuine Serb from Bosna who spends more time defending Kosovo than RS) should be more than enough to prove it.
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Post by odel on Sept 19, 2010 10:17:48 GMT -5
Odel, The guy complaining about Coon was Arsenije, for some reason he doesnt want to be associated Meds, and Coon said that Serbs were heavily influenced by Meds. Back then Albs (the northern ones and in Kosova) were taller than Serbs from Serbia ,, if this has changed, it is doubtlessly bcs of the comparatively poorer living conditions in Kosova and Albania. This is also seen in comparing the younger generations with the older ones, you usually see the sons being significiantly taller than their fathers. Just yesterday I was visited by my uncle, who himself is 6ft (183 cm) .... his son who is just fifteen is already 6'4ft (193 cm), having outgrown his dad with ten centimetres. The same tendency Ive seen in most other cases as well, whereas earlier it was not always so ,, when Coon measured the northern highlanders, he mentioned that our forefathers height had been the same and had changed little from generation to generation bcs the conditions were virtually the same ,, but this is changing slowly. Overall, with Albs, the tallest are the Kosovars and those of N. Albania, which isnt weird since Kosova is only artificially divided from Malesia and is ethnically, culturally and geographically a mere continuation of that mountainous massif. Good post, and yes I've seen this too my father and mother are both the smallest in both families my father is actually with his 178 cm's smaller than his own father I however am 186 cm's tall, I was born in Norway and had living conditions considerably better than both my father and my mother, I think I could have been taller than this even. My fathers two sisters are 170 and 174 while my grandmother/their mother is less than 160, I think that this might be because their father is tall but it also tells of how improving living conditions can make the next generation taller than the previous one. Another example is my cousin from my mothers side of my family his mother is a little less than 170 while his father is probably no more than 176 and he's 196, a friend of ours is even taller than my cousin though he's mother is quite small his father is quite tall. And yes I think so too, Kosovar Albanians are pretty much the same as Northern Albanians I think. But I think Albs from Macedonia could be quite tall with better conditions as while I only know three of them they are all taller than my and according to Ulf they are stocky people which I almost would have to call a lie. The usual stereotype is that they are quite thin and they are from what I have seen leptosomic. Actually stocky builds from what I have seen is much more usual with Macedonians and Serbians from what I have seen.
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Post by ulf on Sept 19, 2010 11:03:15 GMT -5
haha, why should I lie? When I say stocky I don't mean fat, just some robust, sturdy... call it however you want. Sure there are tall Albanians, but on average they're shorter then Serbs(who were mostly tourists) and Macedonians in south-western part of Macedonia(as that where Struga and Ohrid are) to be exact
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