Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 14, 2010 13:45:51 GMT -5
I saw that map, with the results of the 12/09 constitutional referendum in Turkey where yes prevailed, and I wonder why this results in these specific areas? It seems that the traditional ex-Greek territories voted yok...why is that? maybe because these areas are populated mainly by islamists ex ottoman balkanoids transferred there relatively lately?(my guess?)
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 15, 2010 1:38:16 GMT -5
I dont know what this referendum is about but I'm glad about hearing that those military a-holes are going to be tried.
Kemalism has held this country back for far too long! Stunted the country! etc..
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Sept 15, 2010 10:51:09 GMT -5
Can you please clarify these ex balkan areas please? LOL
As far as I know, the most western coast of Turkey and west from Adana(my dad's city) are where the most modern minded people live.
The other parts well, I guess they sold out to the free Refrigerators, coal, sugar, flour, tv;s and washing machines the AKP gave out for Free.
You know I like the actual idea they have with the Referendum except for the part where they will control the whole of the legal system.
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 15, 2010 21:00:45 GMT -5
BS^
Getting all complexy because Turkey's Islamic heritage will be able to come out freely.
I am more afraid about savage military men being in control of the legal system than religious people.At least AKP are not known for violence,dissapearance and murder of the opposition,but the military,like I've said about,they held the country back,and made the nation super stupid.Kept Turkey poor for too long.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 15, 2010 23:29:51 GMT -5
islamist Balkan settlers? Im know almost nothing about Turkish politics and I can tell you that the voting difference is indicative of a cultural difference that made western Turkey much more productive, urbanized, intellectual and even more liberal than the Anatolian heartland. By and large the Balkan immigrants in Turkey today are in general more liberal and open than the inner Anatolian part. Of all the Turks I know, the western ones and the more eastern ones barely ever spoke to eachother at my school. Some of the Balkan Turks even ridiculed the eastern ones behind their backs for being too dark or too "Kurdish".
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 16, 2010 5:42:01 GMT -5
The Balkan Turks, i believe are more backwards and islamist since they lived in a majority christian hostile environment and they felt more close to their religion. I mean look at the Muslims of Greek Thrace...there are many of them who think like mujahedins and follow mufti's words per cent...
Western Turkey has more advanced people not because of the newly established muslim balkanoids but because it was simply part of the hellenic world, since ancient times, without stop, and its urban centers Constantinoupolis, Nikaia, Smyrni, Kydonies(Aydini) etc etc never stoped to communicate with other parts of the Mediterranean.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 16, 2010 13:09:08 GMT -5
lol, yea sure, thats the reason.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 16, 2010 15:20:42 GMT -5
lol, yea sure, thats the reason. I'm glad you agree.
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 16, 2010 15:57:45 GMT -5
The Balkan Turks, i believe are more backwards and islamist since they lived in a majority christian hostile environment and they felt more close to their religion. I mean look at the Muslims of Greek Thrace...there are many of them who think like mujahedins and follow mufti's words per cent... Western Turkey has more advanced people not because of the newly established muslim balkanoids but because it was simply part of the hellenic world, since ancient times, without stop, and its urban centers Constantinoupolis, Nikaia, Smyrni, Kydonies(Aydini) etc etc never stoped to communicate with other parts of the Mediterranean. I think it is partly to do with your second point.But you also must remember that the Balkan Muslims are Europeans! So I guess they've had some Western exposure before Anatolians and with the Aegean region being more developed than other parts of Anatolia for a long time,they had an advantage. The reason why many Aegean/Marmara/Balkan Turks voted against Erdogan is because he is religious.They like the military because the military will supress any manifestation of Islam.And you know the Kemalist of Turkey are ashamed of Turkey's Islamic and Middle Eastern heritage. The Kemalist are superficial.They care more about image.They are desperate for Western approval. They want freedom but not freedom to practise Islam. These Kemalist idiots even say that a woman wearing a headscarf is promoting Islamism.I've seen these fools saying that on TV interviews.
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 16, 2010 17:20:51 GMT -5
the coastside areas of Turkey who voted no to the referendum are happy with the ways things are. They don't want a change. Unlike what Patrino writes they are not Islamist whatsoever. Actually a lot of Greeks of Christianist compared to Turks. The ppl who voted no did so b/c they have a fear of the AKP party being too Islamic thinking that Turkey will become Iran or something. Which I totally disagree with.
I'm glad the referendum passed and the Supreme Court Judges of Turkey will be voted upon just like USA and European countries, not predetermined by the same individuals or the military.
All my relatives in Turkey voted against the referendum !
My belief is that the military should not be involved in politics.
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 17, 2010 19:17:21 GMT -5
I think they(the Kemalists) know pretty well that Turkey will not and just cannot be like Iran as in sharia law being imposed.
They just want Islam supressed.They want people to be dictated into Western ways.You just cant do that these days.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Sept 18, 2010 12:45:31 GMT -5
I also voted against the referendum and everyone I know also did.
I don't like to be treated like a fool. Why are they proposing all these measures nearer to the general election times? who are they fooling, I truly hope with all my heart they action what they stated in the ref, regarding the equal rights etc... but I highly doubt it.
Also has anyone heard about the AKP taking a UK newspaper to court, who published an article about the AKP receiving 25 million dollars from Iran to fund the referendum campaign?
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 19, 2010 10:34:59 GMT -5
ah!
Here we go!
The whole Islam complex that DY is showing!!!!
The Kemalist have been responsible for keeping Turks stupid as hell but DY wants it.All she cares about is image.
Do you guys remember her bitching about headscarf wearing Turks? She called them hypocrites.
Intrestingly,it is the religious Turks that have been responsible for opening Turkey up to the world:Erdogan and Ozal.
It began with Ozal.And now Erdogan is taking the country to great heights.
What did the Kemalist do? Laid the fantasy groundwork and blah! Copy,paste styles from the West and pushed the ignorant Turks into it when they dont understand it.
So what if the AKP received funding from Iran?
AKP wont have the support to turn Turkey into Iran or Saudi Arabia.A research carried out by Ankara University a few years ago showed that majority of people in Turkey dont want sharia law.That results from that research also showed that Eastern Turks are more religious than the Western ones.
Apparently,allowing women to hearscarves anywhere is a sign of the shariazation of Turkey.I'm not sorry.Islam is a large part of Turkey's heritage.It's also partly the reason for Turkey's existence.
I also wait for the day where a woman in Turkey can simulate sex on or with an Ataturk statue.
That day,Turkey is a free country.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Sept 21, 2010 7:49:34 GMT -5
I did not vote since it was not possible to say yes for some articles and no for some others in the meantime.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Sept 21, 2010 9:06:24 GMT -5
I found that the fact they will be overcontrolling the nation enough of a reason to vote No. Glad my whole family and friends and workmates all voted against it, but sadly it means nothing. The Turks who are educated were all vacationing and couldn't be bothered to leave their holidays to vote, while the extremist islamists from America's fetullah gulen group flew over to vote....
shame.. shame shame...
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 21, 2010 12:20:48 GMT -5
Well, the truth is the system mirrors USA and Europe's system, not predetermined judges who were not voted by the party or parties in power - which was how it was running. If you belive in a true Democracy, you shouldn't have the army control as a back up. And that is what the referendum is all about.
Educated Turks like myself that live in the USA see true Democracy and also see that is the reason why USA is so advanced. There is no discrimination by law - b/c of laws protecting its citizens.
We were also stuck with Bush, but that is who people voted for. The army didn't come in and overthrow Bush.
That is why I would have voted yes.
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 21, 2010 12:23:04 GMT -5
The reason why people like my relavatives and others voted No is b/c that is the system they grew up with and are happy with it. and they believe that Akp party has another agenda - which I do not.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Sept 21, 2010 16:54:47 GMT -5
Actually the legl system shouldn't be controlled be the Army or the govt they should be a seperate legal body and define their own system.
thats why I voted No!
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 21, 2010 17:38:20 GMT -5
my belief is the legal system should be controlled by the gov't as that's how it is in western democracies.
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Post by thracian08 on Sept 21, 2010 18:15:40 GMT -5
Changes by article Measures ensuring equality between men and women, and protecting children, the elderly, disabled people, widows and orphans of martyrs as well as for invalid and veterans would not be considered a violation of the principle of equality. (Revises Article 10) The protection of personal data and privacy would be revised, and everyone would be entitled to the protection of privacy. Access to data about personal information would be included within the new protection measures. (Revises Article 20) Travel bans would be relaxed. Trips abroad would be restricted only if a person is subject to a criminal investigation or a legal case. (Revises Article 23) Additional protections would be granted regarding family and children’s rights. All children would expressly have the right to have direct communication with their mother and father and continue relations with them. (Revises Article 41) Public servants would be allowed to be members of more than one union. Civil servants would also have the right to collective bargaining with a body for conciliation to be established in the event of disagreement. (Revises Article 53) The ban on general strikes would be lifted. The measure would also include strikes held for political or solidarity purposes, as well as slowdown strikes. (Revises Article 54) An ombudsman system to deal with problems that may arise between state institutions and citizens would be established. Every citizen would be granted the right to request information and apply to the ombudsman. (Revises Article 74) Deputies would remain in their posts until their elected term ends, even if their parties are closed. (Revises Article 84) The tenure of deputies elected for Parliament’s presidential board would be modified. (Revises Article 94) Decisions by the Supreme Military Council (YAÞ), that result in the expulsion of military officers from the Turkish Armed Forces, or TSK, would be allowed to be appealed in court. The amendment, however, has excluded YAÞ decisions that force military personnel to retire due to promotion procedures and the absence of tenure. Under current law, YAÞ decisions to expel military officers from the armed forces cannot be taken to court. (Revises Article 125) Public servants would be granted the right to collective bargaining with regard to their financial and social rights. (Revises Article 128) Public servants would be provided the right to apply to courts over censure or warning punishments they face in their workplaces. (Revises Article 129) Justice services and the supervision of prosecutors with regard to their administrative duties would be performed by Justice Ministry inspectors. (Revises Article 144) Civilian courts would be permitted to try military personnel, and military courts would not be permitted to try civilians other than during times of war. (Revises Article 145) The size and membership of the Constitutional Court would be restructured. The number of members of the country’s top court would be raised to 17 from 11, and Parliament and the president would elect and appoint members. Currently only the president can appoint members to the Constitutional Court. (Revises Article 146) New court members would be selected for terms of 12 years or until they reach the age of 65. The current article does not set a term limit but stipulates that members retire upon reaching the age of 65. (Revises Article 147) Citizens would be allowed the right to make personal applications to the Constitutional Court. The article would also pave the way for the court to act as the Supreme Council and acquire the authority to judge the chief of General Staff, force commanders and the Parliament speaker in the event of abuses of power. It also allows for the appeal of decisions made while the court acts as the Supreme Council. (Revises Article 148) A quorum would be established for the Constitutional Court to convene and the minimum number of votes required to close a political party or annul constitutional amendments would be changed to two-thirds from three-fifths. (Revises Article 149) The organization and function of the military Supreme Court of Appeals would be restructured. (Revises Article 156) The function of the Supreme Military Administrative Court would be based on the principle of the freedom of the courts rather than the “necessity of military duty.” (Revises Article 157) The HSYK would be restructured to consist of 22 regular and 12 substitute members. Nineteen members would be appointed, four by the president. The court would also function in three separate departments and would have the power to launch investigations against judges and prosecutors. (Revises Article 159) The Economic and Social Council would be established as a constitutional institution. The council provides consultation to the government in creating economic and social policies. (Revises Article 166) An article banning the prosecution of the 1980 coup leaders would be annulled. (Annuls temporary Article 15) Source: Government of Turkey, Prime Ministry; translated by Secretariat General for European Union Affairs (19 August 2010) (pdf). Law No 5982 Amending Certain Provisions of the Constitution. Secretariat General for European Union Affairs. www.abgs.gov.tr/files/BasýnMusavirlik/haberler/constituional_amendments.pdf. Retrieved 2010-09-13.
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