Post by hellboy87 on Sept 22, 2010 5:21:20 GMT -5
Comments by smart Turks on an article on Erdogan's victory!
......This is the group (CHP) that was calling on the army "to do its duty" only a few years ago to topple "their political opponets," for God'sake! There isn't an ounce of democracy, or even a democratic tendency in their blood. Today, after the recent drubbing they got at the polls, they're back to whining that Turkish people are "stupid" and cannot be trusted with the vote! These are the people (our pseudo-elite) who was never comfortable with democracy, and who never trusted democratic institutions, because they could see that in a democratic Turkey, their reign, their hold on power could not be maintained.......
This is a great piece of misinformation that the economist among others has used to great effect. Its partly true, but irrelevant. There are elites, who have lost out, but they are no more than a sideshow.
First the CHP has been out of power for an age, so anything that the leaders of that party do, cannot be "a desperate attempt to cling to power", although it could be classified as a power grab.
Secondly, there are no doubt factions in the army, that have been upset at their power base being erroded, although the vast majority of soldiers, have never had, nor ever will have power.
However, the constituency of the CHP are people who have never had power, or been rich, they are simply middle class Turks. They are trying to hold onto something, their way of life, and it is this that is under threat, from people who show zero tolerance for other people's way of life.
These people, not the leaders of the party (who are like politicians everywhere), understand the difference between mob rule and democracy. It frightens them to see an Islamist Prime Minister, reduce everything to who gets the most votes, and does everything in his power to remove any obstacles to him getting his own way over everything.
It seems Kemalists are panicking and their only response to the democratic voice of the people (that they disrespectfully called the "least educated") is scare-mongering (as they have been doing since the 1950's) instead of providing any arguments in favour of democracy and freedom of expression for ALL citizens.
'mildly Islamist'--- NOT. I lived in Istanbul when this movement first began, and the members of our apartment complex had to bribe these parties to get illegal lamp factories and illegal destruction of the building's basement walls. I also know gay bars which could get licenses if they just donated enough to the Islamic 'charitable foundation. One mixed bar said they had to pay for a whole football field.
I am no great fan of the opposition and their rigid interpretation of Ataturk's principles, but democracy is truly at stake here. I know who most of your news feeders are, and they are wrong.
While the US is more conservative than Europe, it's laws and policy are much more secular than Turkey. In Turkey, the government has it's own version of Hanafi Islam that it teaches in schools to everybody who's ID says they are Muslim. They also pay for the training and salaries of imams. The only thing you can say about the USA is that they give religious organization tax breaks. But they give it everybody, even Scientology. They don't screw over 20% of the population (the Alevi)like we do in Turkey.
What separates us from Iran is that our law is based on our constitution and not the Koran and our chief judges are not clerics they are lawyers. These constitutional amendments do not change the duty of the court, nor the requirement that the judges be law graduates.
Historical election results show that about 25% of the Turkish population would like a system like Iran. The rest of AKPs voters, about 10-15% of the electorate are far more moderate. Some are europhiles, liberals, a few even are social democrats. But the vast majority of that 10-15% vote for the AKP because they trust them with the economy. If the AKP makes risky appointments, Europe is sure to complain and cut their funding. Foreign money will dry up, the market will plummet and people will lose their jobs. If this happens the AKP will surely lose the election, and I'm pretty sure Erdoðan knows this. So that is one reason I am not scared of Turkey turning into Iran.
Incidentally Turkish Muslims, even the more pious amongst the Anatolians and even some of those in the 25% are overwhelmingly monogamous, a lot of their women work (I've seen civil servants that wear a headscarf on the street and take it off for work), and a lot of them would love to be able to send their daughters to university without them having to compromise their religious cultural identity.
My numbers were very conservative and a bit erroneous. The correct conservative number should have been 11-6. 9-6 is only 15 members. However it is important to note that the 3 Gül pre-referendum appointments were selected by the judiciary and there's little doubt that they are secularists. So on the critical issues the most pessimistic expectation within the next 3 years is 14-3. The headscarf ban will definitely be lifted. It is a cheap harmless way for AKP to score some points with its conservative base and I have no problem with it.
If I am concerned about anything it is corruption. There are some Gül appointees that I don't trust completely in that regard. Erdoðan and Gül realise that it is in the AKPs best interest to keep corruption to a minimum, but they aren't beyond enriching their friends and families either. They are hardly the worst offenders in Turkish history though, and most of that enrichment has been legal. For the most part, the companies they favor actually contribute to the economy and the treasury.
......This is the group (CHP) that was calling on the army "to do its duty" only a few years ago to topple "their political opponets," for God'sake! There isn't an ounce of democracy, or even a democratic tendency in their blood. Today, after the recent drubbing they got at the polls, they're back to whining that Turkish people are "stupid" and cannot be trusted with the vote! These are the people (our pseudo-elite) who was never comfortable with democracy, and who never trusted democratic institutions, because they could see that in a democratic Turkey, their reign, their hold on power could not be maintained.......
This is a great piece of misinformation that the economist among others has used to great effect. Its partly true, but irrelevant. There are elites, who have lost out, but they are no more than a sideshow.
First the CHP has been out of power for an age, so anything that the leaders of that party do, cannot be "a desperate attempt to cling to power", although it could be classified as a power grab.
Secondly, there are no doubt factions in the army, that have been upset at their power base being erroded, although the vast majority of soldiers, have never had, nor ever will have power.
However, the constituency of the CHP are people who have never had power, or been rich, they are simply middle class Turks. They are trying to hold onto something, their way of life, and it is this that is under threat, from people who show zero tolerance for other people's way of life.
These people, not the leaders of the party (who are like politicians everywhere), understand the difference between mob rule and democracy. It frightens them to see an Islamist Prime Minister, reduce everything to who gets the most votes, and does everything in his power to remove any obstacles to him getting his own way over everything.
It seems Kemalists are panicking and their only response to the democratic voice of the people (that they disrespectfully called the "least educated") is scare-mongering (as they have been doing since the 1950's) instead of providing any arguments in favour of democracy and freedom of expression for ALL citizens.
'mildly Islamist'--- NOT. I lived in Istanbul when this movement first began, and the members of our apartment complex had to bribe these parties to get illegal lamp factories and illegal destruction of the building's basement walls. I also know gay bars which could get licenses if they just donated enough to the Islamic 'charitable foundation. One mixed bar said they had to pay for a whole football field.
I am no great fan of the opposition and their rigid interpretation of Ataturk's principles, but democracy is truly at stake here. I know who most of your news feeders are, and they are wrong.
While the US is more conservative than Europe, it's laws and policy are much more secular than Turkey. In Turkey, the government has it's own version of Hanafi Islam that it teaches in schools to everybody who's ID says they are Muslim. They also pay for the training and salaries of imams. The only thing you can say about the USA is that they give religious organization tax breaks. But they give it everybody, even Scientology. They don't screw over 20% of the population (the Alevi)like we do in Turkey.
What separates us from Iran is that our law is based on our constitution and not the Koran and our chief judges are not clerics they are lawyers. These constitutional amendments do not change the duty of the court, nor the requirement that the judges be law graduates.
Historical election results show that about 25% of the Turkish population would like a system like Iran. The rest of AKPs voters, about 10-15% of the electorate are far more moderate. Some are europhiles, liberals, a few even are social democrats. But the vast majority of that 10-15% vote for the AKP because they trust them with the economy. If the AKP makes risky appointments, Europe is sure to complain and cut their funding. Foreign money will dry up, the market will plummet and people will lose their jobs. If this happens the AKP will surely lose the election, and I'm pretty sure Erdoðan knows this. So that is one reason I am not scared of Turkey turning into Iran.
Incidentally Turkish Muslims, even the more pious amongst the Anatolians and even some of those in the 25% are overwhelmingly monogamous, a lot of their women work (I've seen civil servants that wear a headscarf on the street and take it off for work), and a lot of them would love to be able to send their daughters to university without them having to compromise their religious cultural identity.
My numbers were very conservative and a bit erroneous. The correct conservative number should have been 11-6. 9-6 is only 15 members. However it is important to note that the 3 Gül pre-referendum appointments were selected by the judiciary and there's little doubt that they are secularists. So on the critical issues the most pessimistic expectation within the next 3 years is 14-3. The headscarf ban will definitely be lifted. It is a cheap harmless way for AKP to score some points with its conservative base and I have no problem with it.
If I am concerned about anything it is corruption. There are some Gül appointees that I don't trust completely in that regard. Erdoðan and Gül realise that it is in the AKPs best interest to keep corruption to a minimum, but they aren't beyond enriching their friends and families either. They are hardly the worst offenders in Turkish history though, and most of that enrichment has been legal. For the most part, the companies they favor actually contribute to the economy and the treasury.