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Post by odel on Jan 9, 2011 11:22:53 GMT -5
As I said you cannot connect looks with haplogroups. And Serbs being genetically more associated with Dinarics then Albanians? Since when? I'm not talking about toponyms in the sense that this means that this and that people are this and that. What I am saying is that Albanians are connected to the pre-slavic people that inhabited the areas above what they inhabit now. Actually those with the greatest amount of Slavic blood in them are also the least Dinarid ones, the Tosks are more Alpine with Dinarids. ... I'll say it again, Serbs are more Dinaric then Albanians. I believe that 100%.[/quote] carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htmcarnby.altervista.org/troe/12-13.htmJust read this. Indeed you did and when you wrote that he has Armenoid features what were I to gather from that sentence? That he was a Nordid? And while the English language is not my first language, I do understand subtetlies not only in that language but in all of the languages I know. Amazing, right? When you say that he has Armenoid features but nothing else, there's not much to gather other than that he is predominantly Armenoid. A dress can be clothing that covers the whole body, or a costume where the person has pants and something that covers the upper body that fits together. Therefore, robes are a particular type of dresses. But if it confuses you when I say dress I will use "costume" instead of "dress". And what am I? Sure thing dude, I came here to start a fight but I don't know that consciously. Brilliant! Yes, they do actually. Dinarids are supposed to be Brachychephal to hyper-Brachychephal. There is actually little mesoschephalacy among them even. And yes, I am aware of Coon claiming this and it's not something that is 100% sure. However, this has nothing to do with Dinarids and the origins of the Dinarids. This is because they were in the Balkans long before Serbs, Sarmatians, even Illyrians, Hellenes and etc were mentioned. This is based on archeology. While the origins of the Dinaric type are not established, we can easily establish that it did not come with the Sarmatians. Not much yokel in my I'm afraid btw. Yes, a little bit of West Kosovo and that's all. And as you said, there are Dinarics all over the place. That's because Kosovars are in reality no different from the people of the Dinaric mountains. All Dinaric? I doubt it, Herzegovina and Dalmatia has a lot of Atlanto-med influences. Montenegro has some UP-type, of Sandzak and Krajina I don't know but it's interesting that all Serbs but those of Serbia and Kosova are Dinaric in the majority. I haven't said that Serbs aren't Dinaric. However, they are not as Dinaric as the Albanians. Serbs have other influences too. Mainly Med, Gorid, Alpine, Baltid, Neo-Danubian and I think they have east-Nordid influences too. They are more of a mixture than Albanians are. I have come across a fair amount of Kosovo Serbs. And I'm not talking about Kosovo Serbs in Kosovo only, I have met a fair amount of diaspora ones too. Macedonian Albs are Ghegs and the majority of them are Dinarics. And Dinarics aren't non-existant in Middle or Southern-Albania either, they're common there too although not as dominantly Dinaric as in Kosova, Northern-Albania and Macedonia. Sure, ok. This does not change the fact that Albs are in the majority Dinaric. Make a better argument next time. Actually, where did you want to go with this?
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Post by ulf on Jan 9, 2011 12:13:49 GMT -5
Albanians in south-west Macedonia(in area of Ohrid and surrounding places, which I visited) are for the most part Alpine-Med's, but I didn't said there aren't other types. I only said they are predominantly this type. Macedonian Slavs possessed lighter features(eye and hair colour), they were a bit taller and usually Pontids. Other then that there were some East Baltid types especially in Orthodox Slavic population.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Jan 9, 2011 12:34:23 GMT -5
" OPEN YOUR EYES TO HISTORY In Ossetia Gazimestan " LOL Oh my God, what a Montenegrin looking landscape. I can totally feel the Serbian-Montenegrin spirit in this land. This has definitely opened my eyes.
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Post by odel on Jan 9, 2011 12:51:30 GMT -5
Albanians in south-west Macedonia(in area of Ohrid and surrounding places, which I visited) are for the most part Alpine-Med's, but I didn't said there aren't other types. I only said they are predominantly this type. Macedonian Slavs possessed lighter features(eye and hair colour), they were a bit taller and usually Pontids. Other then that there were some East Baltid types especially in Orthodox Slavic population.[/quote]
You're right, Ulf. The Albanians you have seen are Tosk Albanians and they are mostly Alpine. The Gheg ones who lie more to the north are more on the Dinaric side, although I'd guess there would be some Pontids too as there are Pontids in Kosova, Serbia and Macedonia and there seems to be many of them in the plain regions.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 9, 2011 12:57:58 GMT -5
^^ Yes and we all know Albanians are known for their beuty Actually, we are known for being a good looking people. lol...where did you get this from? shqiperia.com? mediterranean people are considered beautiful and Greeks in majority fit in this category, so...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 9, 2011 13:00:11 GMT -5
No, we're known for being good looking people among pretty much all of the countries that we have some diaspora in. Especially Greece and Italy where large numbers of Albos reside. We guys really think you're super models. ... "albanian beauty" and "albanian model" ...the next jokes after "albanian tourist"...
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Post by terroreign on Jan 9, 2011 17:45:53 GMT -5
You can't prove they didn't come from the Sarmatians either. Not true if we go by the theory that Dinarics are indigenous to the Balkans, since then it'd be only Dinaric in the mountains, not the plains. This proves, Dinarcism was something brought, not something created, in the Balkans. Kosovo albs have alot of Atlanto-med also, and Kosovo Serbs are mainly Dinaric, who said they weren't. The Serbs of Serbia, like I told you are mainly just Dinaric Serbs themselves, that migrated there in the past 400 years. Albanians are just as mixed if not more. Is this a dinaric? It proves what I said above, that this means Dinaric type isn't native to the Dinaric alps, but was brought.
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Post by toskaliku on Jan 9, 2011 17:50:49 GMT -5
I didn't know heavy facial hair (on girls) and obesity were signatures of beauty.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 9, 2011 20:55:03 GMT -5
Odel-just for you: "Jovan Cvijic came to identify with his most famous concept, that of Dinaric man. Analysing the peoples of the Balkans he broke them down into certain types. Those Slavs, three-quarters of them Serbs, who lived in the shadow of the Dinaric Mountains he identified as Dinarics, whom he said were energetic, impulsive and imbued with a patriotic ardour for which they were prepared to die. The mountains run from Montenegro through Hercegovina and Bosnia up to Lika and Kordun in what later and briefly became the Republic of Serbian Krajina. At the core of his ideas about Dinaric man was the concept of 'avenging Kosovo' which as to play such a prominent role in Serbian history up until the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913: The Dinaric is consumed with a burning desire to avenge Kosovo, where he lost his independence, and to revive the Serbian empire about which he has never ceased to dream even in the most desperate circumstances in which a man of pure reason would have despaired....This tenacity, this absolute fate in the national ideal, is the essential fact of his history. He considers himself chosen by destiny to accomplish the national mission.
...he feels a profound tie to his ancestors....he considers himself a part of a line...that of the kings or tsars, of his celebrated heroes of the Nemanjic times and Kosovo...each Dinaric peasant feels as his own ancestors the heroes of his nation's history....He knows not only the names of the heroes of Kosovo, but their qualities and faults; he is from regions where he can all but feel their wounds. To kill lots of Turks is for him not only a way of avenging his ancestors but of assuaging their pain which he shares." books.google.com/books?id=B4YbP0fPcMYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=serbs+tim+judah&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=JWgqTYzvAsH38AbSpvGpAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=falseWhere the Serboid/Dinaroid type dwells (Green & Red)
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Jan 9, 2011 23:44:34 GMT -5
What do you mean with "in the same family"? They're not Indo-Europeans like us. They're all part of the greater Caucasian language family, living in the Caucasus mountains for the past 12,000 years. Actually, the languages of the peoples you chose (Abkhazians, Georgians, Chechens) belong to three different "Caucasian" language families. There's not a single, widely-accepted, "Caucasian" genetic unit.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 10, 2011 0:18:32 GMT -5
I think you are biased in viewing Serbs as more Dinaric than Albanians, I would probably say its a roughly equal comparison. Atleast that is Coon's observation which is in sync with my own. As for Croats, please. There are definately a lot of dinaric Croats but any anthropologist will tell you that overall they are not more Dinaric than Albanians, not even stereotypically.
Its a sensitive issue with you guys so I can see why you would like to leave it at that. But lets keep in mind that you have people trickling out of Bosnia and into nothern Albania as late as the 1500s like Keq Preka, the founder of the (new branch) of the Hoti clan. There is also a chronicle of the Albanian lanuage being heard in the outlying area of Venetian Dubrovnik.
What I'm tying to say is that its hard to draw the line between Illyrians and Albanians. Its really just a name change that occured over time. Obviously Albanians stem from more certain Illyrian tribes for the most part as geography implies, but why can't you accept it if I wanna say that its was my people that stretched all the way to Slovenia in ancient times? For example, if you have a certain tribe of Serbs that inhabited a certain area of the Balkans, and you personally are of another tribe occupying a different further zone. Can you not say that in the former area there lived your Serb people?
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Jan 10, 2011 1:46:00 GMT -5
Haplogroups, anthropological types, cultural and linguistic groupings, primordialism.
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Hellenas
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Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jan 10, 2011 2:03:36 GMT -5
Oh, really? Thank god we have actual anthropoligists then. Anthropologists who have found Dinaric skulls (fossils? Do you know what a fossil is?) long before Serbs or Sarmatians were in the Balkans, or for that matter long before they ever were mentioned. Dinarics are found to be quite native to the Balkan regions. They were there long before we knew of the Illyrians, Thracians, Hellens and etc. Aris Poulianos( Greek anthropologist/ palaeoanthropologist and archaeologist): Archanthropus of Petralona.According to Poulianos, the Petralona Cave was accidentally discovered in 1959 by local villagers searching for a spring in the mountainside. The Petralona skull, specifically, was discovered in 1960 when it was removed from a rock in the cave. Early estimates at the time placed the age of the hominid remains to around 70,000 years old. Poulianos would ultimately study the remains, name the hominid Archanthropus europeaus petraloniensis, and estimate its age to be around 700,000 years old.
During the 1980s, the age of the Petralona hominid estimated by Poulianos was challenged by an article in Nature. The scientists involved used electron spin resonance measurements and ultimately dated the age of the skull to between 160,000 and 240,000 years old. However, Poulianos states that his excavations in the cave since 1968 provide evidence of human occupation from the Pleistocene era. The Petralona hominid, specifically, was located in a stratigrahic layer containing the most amount of tools and traces of habitation. Poulianos states that the age of the overall layer is approximately 670,000 years old based on electron spin resonance measurements. Further excavations at Petralona revealed two human skeletons that press reports claimed to be 800,000 years old.
Today, most academians having analyzed the Petralona remains classify the hominid as Homo erectus. However, the Archanthropus of Petralona has also been classified as a Neanderthal (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) and as an early generic class of Homo sapiens. Paleoanthropologists, on the other hand, agree that the Petralona cranium is derived from a unique class of hominids different from Homo erectus.Origin of the GreeksIn 1961, Poulianos completed his Ph.D thesis (The Origin of the Greeks) under the supervision of anthropologist F.G. Debets. It was based on anthropometric measurements derived from a geographical sample of Greek people. He concluded that the Greeks (along with their neighbors) directly descend from their ancient forebears. Moreover, they constitute an anthropological mixture of "Aegeans" (a local Mediterranean anthropological type) and "Epirotics" (Dinarics).en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aris_PoulianosThe Origin of the Hellenes. Their roots,related peoples and neighbours. Demetrios P. Demopoulos(Ethnologist). Archaeologists have found that Balkans inhabited once only by Mediterraneans, the skeletal materials reached the Moravian gates and Danube(the Danubians were Mediterraneans). Dinaric skeletal material didn't existed back then in the Balkans. The Dinaric anthropological type came in the Balkans much later, from Caucasos mountain area, when they fought against the Hellenic Mediterranean groups of people (Achaeans, Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians and so on.) The Mesolithic presence of the Mediterranean race (M) and its first extension (around -5000) at the northwestern peninsula of Balkans/Haimos, the Italian shores and at Ukraine. The Caucasian race spread towards all directions. In the peninsula of Balkans/Haimos becomes known as the Illyrian nation.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 10, 2011 2:57:35 GMT -5
They're not Indo-Europeans like us. They're all part of the greater Caucasian language family, living in the Caucasus mountains for the past 12,000 years. Actually, the languages of the peoples you chose (Abkhazians, Georgians, Chechens) belong to three different "Caucasian" language families. There's not a single, widely-accepted, "Caucasian" genetic unit. I know that. North-west Caucasian, North-east Caucasian, and South Caucasians. However they're still isolated from the Indo-Europeans, Uralics and Semetics, it is believed they've been in the Caucasus much longer than the non-Caucasian speaking people, and their distinct looks convey this. Average Georgians - Armenoid-like
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Post by terroreign on Jan 10, 2011 2:59:35 GMT -5
Oh, really? Thank god we have actual anthropoligists then. Anthropologists who have found Dinaric skulls (fossils? Do you know what a fossil is?) long before Serbs or Sarmatians were in the Balkans, or for that matter long before they ever were mentioned. Dinarics are found to be quite native to the Balkan regions. They were there long before we knew of the Illyrians, Thracians, Hellens and etc. Aris Poulianos( Greek anthropologist/ palaeoanthropologist and archaeologist): Archanthropus of Petralona.According to Poulianos, the Petralona Cave was accidentally discovered in 1959 by local villagers searching for a spring in the mountainside. The Petralona skull, specifically, was discovered in 1960 when it was removed from a rock in the cave. Early estimates at the time placed the age of the hominid remains to around 70,000 years old. Poulianos would ultimately study the remains, name the hominid Archanthropus europeaus petraloniensis, and estimate its age to be around 700,000 years old.
During the 1980s, the age of the Petralona hominid estimated by Poulianos was challenged by an article in Nature. The scientists involved used electron spin resonance measurements and ultimately dated the age of the skull to between 160,000 and 240,000 years old. However, Poulianos states that his excavations in the cave since 1968 provide evidence of human occupation from the Pleistocene era. The Petralona hominid, specifically, was located in a stratigrahic layer containing the most amount of tools and traces of habitation. Poulianos states that the age of the overall layer is approximately 670,000 years old based on electron spin resonance measurements. Further excavations at Petralona revealed two human skeletons that press reports claimed to be 800,000 years old.
Today, most academians having analyzed the Petralona remains classify the hominid as Homo erectus. However, the Archanthropus of Petralona has also been classified as a Neanderthal (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) and as an early generic class of Homo sapiens. Paleoanthropologists, on the other hand, agree that the Petralona cranium is derived from a unique class of hominids different from Homo erectus.Origin of the GreeksIn 1961, Poulianos completed his Ph.D thesis (The Origin of the Greeks) under the supervision of anthropologist F.G. Debets. It was based on anthropometric measurements derived from a geographical sample of Greek people. He concluded that the Greeks (along with their neighbors) directly descend from their ancient forebears. Moreover, they constitute an anthropological mixture of "Aegeans" (a local Mediterranean anthropological type) and "Epirotics" (Dinarics).en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aris_PoulianosThe Origin of the Hellenes. Their roots,related peoples and neighbours. Demetrios P. Demopoulos(Ethnologist). Archaeologists have found that Balkans inhabited once only by Mediterraneans, the skeletal materials reached the Moravian gates and Danube(the Danubians were Mediterraneans). Dinaric skeletal material didn't existed back then in the Balkans. The Dinaric anthropological type came in the Balkans much later, from Caucasos mountain area, when they fought against the Hellenic Mediterranean group of peoples (Achaeans, Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians and so on.) Very interesting stuff, Hellenas! Bravo
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Hellenas
Amicus
Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jan 10, 2011 14:31:32 GMT -5
Very interesting stuff, Hellenas! Bravo Thanks, check up the maps I added.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 15, 2011 6:00:49 GMT -5
Krivo, this Ossetian dance look a bit familiar?
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Post by terroreign on Jan 15, 2011 6:14:49 GMT -5
^It's like an exaggerated form of the Montenegrin Oro (Mating dance)
Instead of jumps though you have quick-steps and spins....still the man inflates his chest and tries to make himself look bigger...while the girl emanates grace and beauty.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 2, 2011 20:00:23 GMT -5
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Post by coris on Apr 4, 2011 11:17:09 GMT -5
Actually, we are known for being a good looking people. lol...where did you get this from? shqiperia.com? mediterranean people are considered beautiful and Greeks in majority fit in this category, so... I was skimming through the thread and came across this, I felt the urge to answer. I am turkish with both albanian and greek origins so I will try to be as objective as possible. In Turkey, Albanians and Circassians are considered to be the most beautiful people. Now, greeks aren't regarded as ugly but when talking about beauty, nearly everyone in Turkey will agree to the fact that Albanians are much more beautiful than greeks and turks. now, I know you won't be able to understand it but if you can translate it on the internet check this online-dictionary site. www.eksisozluk.com/show.asp?t=arnavut+k%C4%B1zlar%C4%B1www.uludagsozluk.com/k/arnavut-k%C4%B1zlar%C4%B1/
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