|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 10, 2011 1:34:22 GMT -5
Chento, the carnegie report is interesting, when l get proper time, l will look into it and talk about it. Just for now, the result of 1872 to 1912 produced Bulgarianised Serbs, hence there were schools BuLgarski schools etc...
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 10, 2011 1:38:30 GMT -5
Chentovist, are you familiar with the Makedonian involvement in WWI and the two divisions (Vardarska, Bitoljska) from Makedonia which participated in the Serbian army? I have seen this evidence with my own eyes in the military museum in Corfu. You should go there sometime and try to see the true facts rather than relying in useless foreign (German-Bulgarian) propaganda. You know it seems stupid.
And another thing. I am one in the 0.0000000000000000000000001 % of Greeks who actually like your country, the people, the music, ajvar, etc....
But, having visions and aims against the Greek part of Makedonia (where loads of Greeks displaced by the Turks live there today) would turn me and the rest of 1-2 greeks in total who like you, against you.
Sometime, we the balkanians, should start COMMUNICATING with each other and abandon this "hardcore"-nationalism idiotic style. This kind of nationalism is only useful to the ones who want to prepare new wars on our heads.
|
|
Sokol
Senior Moderator
Македонецот
Posts: 653
|
Post by Sokol on Jun 10, 2011 1:46:04 GMT -5
Chentovist, are you familiar with the Makedonian involvement in WWI and the two divisions (Vardarska, Bitoljska) from Makedonia which participated in the Serbian army? I have seen this evidence with my own eyes in the military museum in Corfu. You should go there sometime and try to see the true facts rather than relying in useless foreign (German-Bulgarian) propaganda. You know it seems stupid. And another thing. I am one in the 0.0000000000000000000000001 % of Greeks who actually like your country, the people, the music, ajvar, etc.... But, having visions and aims against the Greek part of Makedonia (where loads of Greeks displaced by the Turks live there today) would turn me and the rest of 1-2 greeks in total who like you, against you. Sometime, we the balkanians, should start COMMUNICATING with each other and abandon this "hardcore"-nationalism idiotic style. This kind of nationalism is only useful to the ones who want to prepare new wars on our heads. yes, macedonians participated in all wars, but fought for different armies. in the balkan wars there was a macedonian-odrin division, which fought alongside the bulgarian army. relax, i am not claiming aegean macedonia should form part of r.macedonia. all we ask is that you respect those slavic macedonians in greece that identify as ethnic macedonians and allow them to foster their language and culture. indeed, this is the aim of vinozhito, and not secession
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 10, 2011 2:08:56 GMT -5
^^^ Totally agree, all the way.
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on Jun 10, 2011 9:20:16 GMT -5
rather than relying in useless foreign (German-Bulgarian) propaganda. you have to add the English, the French, the American, the Greek, even the early Serbian who have also supported the Bulgarian view that in Macedonia there lived Bulgarians. Practically the whole world. Which makes it reality and NOT propaganda. Nice try though.
|
|
|
Post by macedonia on Jun 10, 2011 10:16:21 GMT -5
guys, in macedonia there were so many propagandas, but the worse were the bulgarian , serbian and greek. the greek was most a religious propaganda, but there are evidences of macedonian villages burned or people killed by the greek, but it was not very big, as the serbian and bulgarian propagandas. the serbian was an educational propaganda, the serbs taught the macedonians that they were serb, and if someone from vardarska makedonija didn't agree they would kill him. But that is nothing compared to the bulgarian propaganda, that killed thousands of people in macedonia. U ask me: were there Serbian atrocities in Vardarska Banovina (Fyrom)? - I will answer - YES - YES - Triple YES ... There were, but the bulgarian were the most fascistic and antimacedonian... that doesn't mean that yours are forgiven.. And, it would be wrong if u consider me as an ultranationalist, i'm not so. I don't hate the bulgarians , serbs nor the greeks, i love them all, i love the people of the balkans, but i hate the bulgarian and greek and serb politics for macedonia. The serbs have issues with our religion, the bulgarians with all of our history, the greek with the antc history and the name and identity.. that's what i hate! let us be who we want to be, not who you want us to be... .. and , to the greeks, i love the coexistence in edessa, florina or kastoria, if the aegean macedonians there don't have problems, why should we have.. the greeks living there say that they are macedonians, and your politics don't. Slavofonians, or slavomakedonians, or what? - for your information , macedonia and albania together were populated from less slavic population than greece. I mean, what about the avarians, the humans, the hunns, the vandals, the goths, ostrogoths-visigoths, there were millions of tribes that populated the balkans, some less, some more, and we all are a mixture of all of them! ... and i'd love to share teh history with greece, or bulgaria, for example , alexander was macedonian, he killed greeks, but he accepted the greek culture and religion and created the helenic culture... and samoil, he was macedonian, he and his brothers (they were slavic macedonians) declired independence from the tsardom of tatar bulgaria, and they conquered it. Samoil ruled over the lives of many macedonians, but also many bulgarians, serbs, and greeks, thats why we can't say that he is only ours. If u want to resolve the macedonian issue , and all the other balkan issues , you should support a balkan union movement, we all are from ethiopia, africa, we all are people, why should we fight with each other and kill each other ... this is all history, forget it and look in the future. HISTORY IS A SCIENCE FOR THE DEAD, THAT TIRES UP THE ALIVE ONES! Long live macedonia!!!
|
|
|
Post by macedonia on Jun 10, 2011 10:22:37 GMT -5
and why u call us FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia, should we call you FYROS - Former Yugoslav Republic Of Serbia or FOROG and FOROB - Former Ottoman Republics Of Greece and Bulgaria what is this shit, we are all FRPM - FRPS - FRPG - FRPB Former Roman Provinces - Macedonia, Greece, Serbia, BUlgaria... or should we be - Former Latin Crusader States... wtf???
|
|
|
Post by macedonia on Jun 10, 2011 10:23:28 GMT -5
How may hot-dogs has this ninja eaten
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 10, 2011 11:54:54 GMT -5
and why u call us FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia, should we call you FYROS - Former Yugoslav Republic Of Serbia or FOROG and FOROB - Former Ottoman Republics Of Greece and Bulgaria what is this s**t, we are all FRPM - FRPS - FRPG - FRPB Former Roman Provinces - Macedonia, Greece, Serbia, BUlgaria... or should we be - Former Latin Crusader States... wtf??? Haha , good point. You're Macedonians , end of story. Nay-sayers will accept it in time. Zdravo.
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on Jun 10, 2011 12:32:26 GMT -5
and samoil, he was macedonian, he and his brothers (they were slavic macedonians) declired independence from the tsardom of tatar bulgaria, and they conquered it. Samoil ruled over the lives of many macedonians, but also many bulgarians, serbs, and greeks, thats why we can't say that he is only ours. proove that Samuil was Macedonian? A quote from the time? I can give you sources that his state was called Bulgaria and that he was called Bulgarian and that his nephew Ioan Radomir calls himself "Bulgarian by birth" and his people - Bulgarians. Is there any proove existing, from that time, that there lived Macedonians in presenday Macedonia and NOT Bulgarians, because I ve never seen one.
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Jun 10, 2011 12:52:43 GMT -5
Why do I have the feeling that Macedonia is my old good friend Krivo?! Krivo, jebem ti sunce zarko. Pa ti jebem i broj kuci.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Jun 14, 2011 9:05:04 GMT -5
That’s great, and if you read some more you’ll see that no one is trying to tell you how to feel. What we’re doing, is posting sources that show that not even 100 years ago your forefathers didn’t feel as ethnic Macedonians. There were ethnic Bulgarians, ethnic Albanians, ethnic Greeks, ethnic Serbs, ethnic Turks etc.. and all of them were Macedonians, BUT on a regional basis, not an ethnic one.
Read, inform yourself, and you shall learn.
Chetnovist, do you know “why” the Serbs terrorized the Slav speaking population of Macedonia? What was their purpose? What provoked them? And what did they forbid? Btw, these are rhetorical questions for me.. but if you answer them for yourself, at your own accord, it will probably clear things up for you and you won’t feel so angry when you see why others have a different opinion than yours.
Да добро дојде, нека има повеке Македонци на овој форум.
There’s much confusion in your head bro. Your most patriotic organization of all has had a firmly attested Bulgarian identity. When Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia, the “Macedonians” willingly immigrated to Bulgaria.. hence why ¼ of Bulgarians have roots in Macedonia.
This FYROM acronym is out of place. Personally, I’ve always been good with the Republic of Macedonia name. I think it’s accurate, and should remain. I also think that if Macedonia’s government “straightens” out its history by removing the remains of Tito’s propaganda from it.. I think you guys wouldn’t have any issues with that name. Greece would probably be good with it too, or at least, they’d cool off.
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 9:35:09 GMT -5
Ivo , I agree. I don't see why the Macedonians should not be called Macedonians nor why they shouldn't be allowed to call their country Macedonia. So long as they don't deny the authenticity of Greek Macedonia ( which they don't) and they don't try to claim it as an 'occupied' R.Macedonia territory. I think for the most part the Macedonians are fair about this.
And you bring up another good point. Rewriting or remodeling Macedonian history to exclude its Bulgarian , Serbian , Greek , and Albanian elements is just as bad as these nations trying to deny Macedonians the right to exist as Macedonians. Macedonians are Slavs or slavophones mostly kin to the Bulgarian and perhaps old Serbian family of Slavs and its easy to see why the claim on Alexander the Great comes off as ridiculous. But from a certain viewpoint I can see how it makes sense , at least in an narrow interpretation. Macedonians may not be ethnically Slav , that is to say, the same people in blood as the larger body of Slavs to the north and merely adopted the Slavonic tongue. By blood they could have roots to Philip's and Alexander's Macedon but they are not retainers of that culture. Their culture is kin to Slav-Bulgar and to a certain extent old Serbian tradition and I would argue that very few peoples in the Balkans , even the modern Greeks , retain anything from Ancient Hellas.
|
|
|
Post by ulf on Jun 14, 2011 9:41:34 GMT -5
Agreed with all of you guys here. Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia are Slavs, descendent of Sclaveni. And there is an interesting article in wikipedia for those who are more interested: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Jun 14, 2011 14:12:47 GMT -5
Ulf, your neutrality is admirable.. however we're skipping history here. Whether the present day Macedonians were actually the Sclaveni is debatable in my opinion. Either way, I think it's irrelevant to our discussions here. I mean if we look back far enough we were all the same, all humans were the same we have common roots.. but this is way to generic.
The whole point is that whatever the population of the region was between 0AD to 500AD.. whether they were Sclaveni, or Africans or whatever doesn't really matter. Pertaining to our discussions, it's really irrelevant. The point is that those populations, whatever they were, developed a pre-dominantly Bulgarian self consciousness starting from the middle ages.. and that Bulgarian identity remained in tact until the 20th century.
These are all well recorded facts, by many different sources during different time periods. The problem that we run into is that certain political regimes have aimed at "erasing" all traces of anything Bulgarian from Macedonia.. and the present day government of the Republic of Macedonia is still pushing in that direction.
In my opinion, everything needs to be laid out in plain sight. Post as many sources as possible, read as many books as you can, and come to a conclusion on our own for ourselves.
Unfortunately, some people seem to be scared of what they may find.. and so they prefer to stick to some "ideal" fairy tale version of the realities of our past, which is almost always inspired by someone's political agenda.
|
|
|
Post by ulf on Jun 14, 2011 15:11:40 GMT -5
ivo, population in Macedonia were always pro-Slavic(historical evidences show us this). I believe they didn't cared much if they were under Serbs or Bulgarians as long as they weren't mistreated like in Ottoman period. Also I believe you know that the concept of national identity is relatively new thing, about 200 years old.
Anyway, both Serbs and Bulgarians left their marks in Macedonia(but Bulgarians somewhat larger) through history, and I know Bulgarians have strong bond to Macedonia, especially Ohrid-Prespa lakes regions, so I can understand when you and your Bulgarian friends respond temperamentally at some topics.
But Macedonians, they themselves feel closer to Serbs then Bulgarians, from my personal experience through visits to this country(and I was many times there)
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 14, 2011 15:49:11 GMT -5
No doubt the Bulgarian self consciousness of some Macedonians was well documented but its questionable how many really felt strongly as Bulgarians. Consider these facts : Many Bulgarians will pull up ethno-linguistic maps charted by foreign visitors and researchers and these maps will show that Macedonians fall under the Bulgarian linguistic branch. So far I think this is mostly accurate. Macedonian and Bulgarian seem to me to be two dialects of the same slavonic tougue and still are mutually intelligible especially with the dialects of Western Bulgaria ( correct me if I'm wrong so far.) However, two things here. One , same language/ different dialect isn't sufficient grounds to establish they are or felt mostly Bulgarian , they could've just been classified like that. Also , the Serbs. I am becoming convinced that 'old Serbian' was more akin to Eastern south Slavic than Western south Slavic and its current 'western S.Slavic form' picked up when it was fused with Croatian.
Let is us also consider that nationalism was either non existant or existed in a different, much weaker , form before the rise of nation states in the 18th century. Consider why the Ottoman Empire stayed relatively peaceful , internally , for centuries. It wasn't until the rise of nationalism that people started becoming united under flags for freedom. I am convinced that a Macedonian in Ottoman Europe knew well enough that he was from Macedonia but could go his whole life and his family several generations without calling themselves Bulgars or Serbs. The more I think about it Macedonia bares more & more similarities to Bosnia.
It's clear that some Macedonians felt clearly Bulgarian and stayed Bulgarian through the tough periods. More even felt Bulgarian than Serb. However , I think overall the Bulgarian identity , like the Serb one , must have been pretty damn weak in Macedonia. Think about it , if Macedonia felt as Bulgarian as you claim , how come in a single generation was the Bulgarian identity changed. I'm sure some patriots were executed for being Bulgarian but the majority of Macedonians must have 'changed' their identities to Macedonian from Bulgarian , like changing the radio station. A true feeling of Bulgarianess among most Macedonians would have prevented this. Consider the reverse how minorities clinged fiercly to their identities including the few Bulgarians that still call themselves Bulgarian. Do you get what I'm saying?
Both sides seem to become unreasonable. The Bulgarians ( and others * stares at Serbs...again* that try to claim Macedonia try to give a historical account with only themselves as the main actors and claim everything there. On the flip side , probably reactionary , the Macedonians try to spin history by negating and denying as much as possible any Bulgar , Serb , Albanian , or Greek role in R.Macedonia's history. Croats and Serbs do the same thing with Bosnia and the Bosniaks behave the same way Macedonians do.
There are so many 'official histories' that its hard to know which one is completely accurate. Even foreign sources are influenced somewhat. I mean most of the research from the Balkans are done by the natives themselves since we take the greatest interest in our own history. A foreign reference can usually be traced back to some local historian with an agenda. It's not always like that but I would say it is most of the time.
And I think people stress too much importance on what happened in the goddamn past and somehow use it to justify what ought to happen in the future all while not coming to grips with the present. Bottom line is Macedonia and Macedonians are here to stay , so are its minorities, everyone should pull their heads out of their arses and accept it and move the hell on.
Too true.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Jun 14, 2011 17:30:54 GMT -5
Ulf, again you’ve posted some interesting perspectives, anyway..
The population of Macedonia was only under Serbian rule during the time of the Serbian Empire. Prior to that, it was never actually ruled by Serbs. There were likely contacts and interactions, at least on some level, between the Serbs and those Slavs who lived in the region of Macedonia.. but again, they were not under Serbian authority. Each had their own tribal alliances. Now, by the time Macedonia became a part of the Serbian Empire, the Macedonian Slavs already had an established Bulgarian identity.. or at the very least, a strong affinity to the Bulgarian Empire. We can see that if we look at Tsar Samuils Bulgarian Empire, which was centered in Macedonia. Furthermore, after defeating and conquering Samuil’s Bulgaria.. Basil II gained the title of “Bulgar-slayer”. Some people like Pazar, for example, would argue that this only bares political significance and not an ethnic one, but that’s just ignorant especially considering all other evidence that was recorded about Macedonia throughout the centuries.
The Tsars of the Second Bulgarian Empire claimed direct lineage to the dynasty of Tsar Samuil, which a person like Pazar could once more argue that its significance is only political.. however, if we look further throughout history this supposed “political” significance becomes even more significant.. I mean, the majority of sources for centuries after Samuil have identified that the Slav speaking element of Macedonia in its majority were Bulgarians. So politically significant or not, there must have been much more than just “politics” even in those early days.
Anyway, what I was trying to say here, is that I doubt that when the Serbian Empire annexed Macedonia for some 30 years.. I doubt the population there didn’t care if they were ruled by Serbia or Bulgaria. By that time, Macedonia already had a pre-dominantly Bulgarian identity.
Yeah I keep reading that, particularly when I read about Macedonia. It always comes up, and it’s the convenient “neutral” approach to the matter. However, if we are brutally honest here, there never were any questions about the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia before Serbia and Greece decided to “take it” some 100 years ago.
Serbs have left their mark on Macedonia; you’re definitely right about that. But to say that Bulgarians have left their mark on Macedonia just doesn’t sound right. It’s like saying Bulgarians have left their mark on Bulgaria, or Serbs have left their mark on Serbia. The Bulgarian “mark” on Macedonia has been left by the Macedonian patriots mainly the IMRO. They were a local Macedonian organization, so I guess the Bulgarians left a mark on themselves.
I have seen this phenomenon myself. But in all fairness let’s not forget that in the past century, primarily while Macedonia was under Yugoslavia, Bulgaria had only been mentioned in a negative light.. to put it mildly. Even today, the only positive news about Bulgaria that are published in Macedonia pertain to sport at best. In all other spheres of life, Bulgaria is painted out as a mortal enemy that wants to annex Macedonia and take away its independence.. which is not true at all, and in fact, it’s the other way around. So basically we have two (maybe three) generations of Macedonians that have grown up in a country where the mere mention of the word “Bulgaria” or “Bulgarian” is some sort of taboo.
It’s more than that. All wars between 1878 and 1945 that Bulgaria was involved in were for Macedonia. During those times, Macedono-Bulgarians were brutally oppressed by Serbs and Greeks.. and again, the use of the word “oppressed” is putting it in the mildest possible way.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Jun 14, 2011 18:02:54 GMT -5
Anything is possible I guess, but like I’ve said in the past, we’re not talking about a 50-50 split between sources.. it’s not like half claim they were Bulgarian, and the other half claim they were Serbs or some independent Slavic group. We’re talking nearly all sources 95% + have concurred on the Bulgarian identity. Furthermore, these are source coming from a variety of different countries, during different time periods.. and yet, nearly all of them have come to the exact same conclusion. Seems a bit a more than a coincidence don’t you think?
Furthermore, the Macedonians who immigrated to North America instead of Bulgaria opened churches that they called Macedono-Bulgarian. They opened stores and restaurants that they called Macedono-Bulgarian, or simply Bulgarian. These only started to be named “Macedonian” after 1945, yet the bulk of the immigrants came in the early 1900’s.
It was more than a generation. It all started in the early 1900’s. Serbia originally attempted to assimilate the Macedono-Bulgarians into becoming Serbs, however, when they realized that this was going to be nearly impossible they opted out for the next best thing.. which was to de-Bulgarize the region, and all those that identified as Bulgarians were either beaten, tortured, raped, or deported. The de-Bulgarization methods continued all throughout Yugoslavia, and are still present in Macedonia today to some extent. Furthermore, most of the “elite” of Macedonia either immigrated to Bulgaria or to North America. The “elite” being the doctors, lawyers, teachers.. anybody with higher education really. And any people without their leading faction to guide them usually become easy assimilation targets. And unfortunately, when this “elite” element of society left Macedonia, it was replaced with a Serbian “elite” in Vardar Macedonia and a Greek “elite” in Aegean Macedonia.
Ahh but again it comes to this. However, as I mentioned above, some 95% of neutral sources are on the Bulgarian side.. which just seems a bit more than a simple coincidence. And these non-local sources, get even more credibility when we know that earlier Serbian sources (and Greek) ones have come to the same conclusions. The only thing that changed the views of Serbia and Greece, were their governments who’s main goal was to annex Macedonia, to assimilate as much of the population as they could, and to deport the rest elsewhere.
All it takes for me is for Macedonia’s government to acknowledge what has been recorded in the past. As long as they acknowledge it, instead of hiding it, avoiding it, or purposefully misinterpreting it.. then I’d have no beef with anyone about anything on the matter.
|
|
|
Post by macedonia on Jun 14, 2011 19:23:01 GMT -5
that's what they say n bulgarian archive, in macedonian it is different, and so what, hitlers state was called Germany, but he was austrian, ... samoils father was macedonian and his mother was armenian, and if you want to say he was bulgarian, how could he be a bulgarian king when the crown was in constantinopol in byzantium, his capital was St.Achilis - Little Prespa - 85% macedonians, then Ohrid that was with 90% macedonians, the church was in prespa, macedonia, "In the historical science this state is called Samuels Empire, and some historians, to make a difference between Samuel's empire and the kingdom of Tsar Simeon the I, call it Macedonian Slavic Empire or Macedonian kingdom. Bulgarian historians consider it a Bulgarian Empire (the also called Westbulgarian Empire, but is is an indisputable fact that in this period there was already formed Bulgarian Empire, headed by King Simeon."
.... you don't understand my point, i wanna say, that neither the macedonians nor the bulgarians hated him, he rulled over them , or Krale Marko considered himself as a macedonian king, but he was from the Mrnjacha family from herzegovina - croat... i just wanna say that it is a history shared by all the nations from the balkans, i can't tell you to stop calling Samoil(Samuil) a bulgarian, so why do you tell me this? Let me be who i want to be, and you be yourself, don't search for advantages or disadvantages in the others, but in yourself , we, macedonians wanna be macedonians, live us choose alone, and let us leave together with you...
|
|