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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 13:43:18 GMT -5
Linguistically Albanian can not be derived from anything Illyrian via no means. Remains from Illyria point to either Greek (or Phrygian) direction for southern Illyria ..........or......... Italic direction for northern Adriatic region. Pannonia has no remains and remains enigma just as do Albanians. There is no way that Albanian is derived from only Balkan sources (specifically Thracian or Illyrian) since I doubt it would exist at all considering the level of Hellenization and Romanization Balkans underwent in antiquity. Only potential Balkan source might be Dacian that might have been isolated enough but even this is doubtful although Dacian seems to have influenced Albanian. Then heavy Slavic influence that brought intensive Slavization in Byzantine provinces which were left fully defenseless due to the fact that Byzantines were fighting wars of survival against Arabs and Persians. Slavizaton scientifically decreases chances for Dascian theory since it was extensive in so called Dacian regions. Normans point ( as I posted before and I will try to post more details from the sources that such data came from) to a very real possibility of Norman (and thus Crusader) influence. In the same text it clearly states that under the term Normans (who at this point were only Latin speaking) there were also populations which were not derived from Normans stemming from Italy. It states in fact most were not - which raises the question also as far as who were these so called Normans. The text also shows that Normans went to number of places such as specifically Caucasus (Armenia and Georgia mentioned, especially Armenia) region and had some of the natives there on their side and they even lent the 'ethnicity' to the locals. So this now means that Normans are not only added to the equation as far as Albanians are concerned but also whoever these Caucasian elements are that were contained within Normans. So are we to believe that some primitive mountain tribe (Albanian has no native maritime words) survived Hellenization, Romanization (Romans), Hellenization (this time via Byzantines), Slavization and possibly again Romanization (probably this time via Normans) yet they receive noticeable Persian influence as bellow data suggest. The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Surprisingly the Persian words seem to have been absorbed the most. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Gothic_loansThe Persian influence again most logically connects to Normans and their wars in Armenia which was an area under heavy Persian influence. Meaning, it points to Normans bringing some population with them. Going back to original Illyrians and specifically southern Illyrians here I will post about Phrygians (whom, on a minor scale, with Greeks, on a far larger scale, are the only connecting dots with those people). More on PhrygiansThe earliest mentionings of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians by stating that, according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia,[3] a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC[4] perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. 3^ Herodotus. Histories, 7.73. "The Phrygian equipment was very similar to the Paphlagonian, with only a small difference. As the Macedonians say, these Phrygians were called Briges as long as they dwelt in Europe, where they were neighbors of the Macedonians; but when they changed their home to Asia, they changed their name also and were called Phrygians. The Armenians, who are settlers from Phrygia, were armed like the Phrygians. Both these together had as their commander Artochmes, who had married a daughter of Darius." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#History----- While some consider the Phrygians part of a "Thraco-Phrygian" group, Claude Brixhe [1] dismisses that idea, since Thracian and Dako-Thracian seem to belong to the Eastern (satem) group of Indo-European languages (see Brixhe-Panayotou, 1994, #3ff). Brixhe believes that "unquestionably, however, Phrygian is most closely linked with Greek." [2] [3 1# ^ The ancient Languages of Asia Minor, Cambridge University Press, 2008 2# ^ The ancient Languages of Asia Minor, Cambridge University Press, 2008 3# ^ Midas and the Phrygians, by Miltiades E. Bolaris (2010) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia--------- Phrygian is considered to have been closely related to Greek.[1][2] The similarity of some Phrygian words to Greek ones was observed by Plato in his Cratylus (410a). 1# ^ Brixhe, Cl. "Le Phrygien". In Fr. Bader (ed.), Langues indo-européennes, pp. 165-178, Paris: CNRS Editions. 2# ^ Woodard, Roger D. The Ancient Languages of Asia Minor. Cambridge University Press, 2008, ISBN 052168496X, p. 72. "Unquestionably, however, Phrygian is most closely linked with Greek." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language
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Post by ushtari on Jan 30, 2011 15:51:19 GMT -5
Linguistically Albanian can not be derived from anything Illyrian via no means. Remains from Illyria point to either Greek (or Phrygian) direction for southern Illyria ..........or......... Italic direction for northern Adriatic region. Pannonia has no remains and remains enigma just as do Albanians. According to who? your self? all linguists agree that Albanian is from Balkan IMAGE OF IDENTICAL LARGER PIC----> i52.tinypic.com/34fktgp.jpgSOURCEbooks.google.com/books?id=cm-VwKgY8jcC&pg=PA73&dq=Pal+Engj%C3%ABlli&cd=4#v=onepage&q&f=falseWhat source do you have wich speak against this? no youtube clips, bloggs, forums or WIKIPEDIA as a source please. Can you please explain the fact that Albanian have Dalmatian and innerland-balkan Latin and not that one in Italian? The so called Paleobalkan words ARE cognates with Original Albanian words. "First, the 'substratum' of Romanian ( that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. ( Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.)" www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachswww.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.htmlAgain, Albanian is developed from either Illyrian, Dacian or Thracian, wich i clearly proved for you. " But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries." www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.htmlwww.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-VlachsAs you can see, its a commonly know fact that Albanians are descendants from a paleobalkan people, whats being discussed is from wich one, ie Illyrans/Dacians/Thracians.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 15:53:49 GMT -5
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Post by la3ar on Jan 30, 2011 16:01:15 GMT -5
Ushtari;
Just admit your slavic/greco/turkish connection already, and call this square.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 30, 2011 16:05:40 GMT -5
I have given you impartial academic sources wich claim that the original home of Albanians is Dardania(kosovo) and Albania. Now its up to you to disprove it, only academic sources accepted.
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Post by la3ar on Jan 30, 2011 16:13:21 GMT -5
Been there done that. How soon you forget.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 16:15:53 GMT -5
Look at the words his sources use -------- ""But IFIllyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries." www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-M....ians-and-Vlachswww.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.htmlIllogical assesment since that area had Greeks, Romans and Slavs controlling. Primitive mountain dwelling population would have succumbed to the linguistic pressure for sure. Notice IF in the quote above. -------- "Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Ira)
Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all. www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.htmlwww.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-M....ians-and-VlachsThe guy writing this is clearly guessing since again there are no other remains from Illyria other then Greek and that connection with Phrygian. One doesn't even need to do anything but point at his words to prove what I am saying and that is that Albanian language remain an enigma.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 30, 2011 16:29:18 GMT -5
Look at the words his sources use Illogical assesment since that area had Greeks, Romans and Slavs controlling. Primitive mountain dwelling population would have succumbed to the linguistic pressure for sure. Notice IF in the quote above. The guy writing this is clearly guessing since again there are no other remains from Illyria other then Greek and that connection with Phrygian. One doesn't even need to do anything but point at his words to prove what I am saying and that is that Albanian language remain an enigma. So you know better then linguists and historians? Greek and Latin have both left traces in Albanian, so whats your point? New study do indeed show that venetic was not related with Illyrian. The reason why Illyrian was believed to be centum is because venetic is centum. However, noel malcolm clearly stated that: "However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian"
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Post by ushtari on Jan 30, 2011 16:46:09 GMT -5
Been there done that. How soon you forget. No you have not.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 17:16:00 GMT -5
So you know better then linguists and historians? Greek and Latin have both left traces in Albanian, so whats your point? New study do indeed show that venetic was not related with Illyrian. The reason why Illyrian was believed to be centum is because venetic is centum. However, noel malcolm clearly stated that: "However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian" First there is no blanket term for all so called Illyrians as they are perceived to be today. Venetic is related to northern Adriatic which I already said was Italic-like such as Liburnians and Histrians. ----- Arguments against Illyrian origin
The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on archaeological and linguistic grounds.[58]
* Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the eleventh century in Byzantine sources[59]
* According to linguist V. Georgiev, the theory of an Illyrian origin for the Albanians is weakened by a lack of any Albanian names before the 12th century and the relative absence of Greek influence that would surely be present if the Albanians inhabited their homeland continuously since ancient times.[60] According to Georgiev if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, the number of Greek loanwords in the Albanian language should be higher.[61]
* According to Georgiev, although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian. Furthermore, placenames can be a special case and the Albanian language more generally has not been proven to be of Illyrian stock.[59]
* Many linguists have tried to link Albanian with Illyrian, but without clear results.[59][62] Albanian belongs to the satem group within Indo-European language tree, while there is a debate whether Illyrian was centum or satem. On the other hand, Dacian[62] and Thracian[63] seem to belong to satem.
* There is a lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while Albanians scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, most scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romance language.[64][65][66] Recently, some Albanian archeologists have also been moving away from describing the Komani-Kruja culture as a proto-Albanian culture.[67] ------ 58# ^ a b Fine, JA. The Early medieval Balkans. Univ. of Michigan Press, 1991. p.10. [3] 59# ^ a b c Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.146. [4] 60# ^ Turnock, David. The Making of Eastern Europe, from the Earliest Times to 1815. Taylor and Francis, 1988. p.137 [5] 61# ^ a b Fine, JA. The Early medieval Balkans. Univ. of Michigan Press, 1991. p.11. [6] 62# ^ a b The Cambridge ancient history by John Boederman,ISBN 0521224969,2002,page 848 63# ^ The Illyrian Language 64# ^ Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.147. [7] 65# ^ Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 1992, ISBN 0631198075, p. 278. "...likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of Illyrian origin driven out by Slav settlements further north, the 'Romanoi' mentioned..." 66# ^ Jirecek, Konstantin. "The history of the Serbians" (Geschichte der Serben), Gotha, 1911 67# ^ Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.149. [8] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin
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Post by la3ar on Jan 30, 2011 17:29:26 GMT -5
You can continue to prove him wrong, it wont make a difference to him.
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Post by ushtari on Jan 30, 2011 18:18:40 GMT -5
Apart from the fact that your quotes does not in anyway contradict what i said (ie that it is still being discussed from what ancient balkan people albanians are descendants of, if it is illyrians dacians or thracians) i will reply to your ridiculous quotes. The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on archaeological and linguistic grounds.[58] How does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan? False, se below: BIGGER IMAGE ---> i52.tinypic.com/34fktgp.jpgSOURCE:books.google.se/books?id=XFtbEd1ojBsC&lpg=PP1&dq=indo%20european%20language&hl=en&pg=RA1-PA89#v=onepage&q=albanian&f=falseHow does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan? "As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage." pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htmwww.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/129453/History#ref476150How does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan? No it should not, since majority of albanians lived north of the jirecek line where latin influences was biggest. BIGGER IMAGE -----> i56.tinypic.com/b3mxih.jpgSOURCE:books.google.se/books?id=5pCBRsfJMv8C&lpg=PA102&dq=doric%20greek%20albanian&pg=PA102#v=onepage&q=toponyms&f=falseHow does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan? Speaking of Toponyms: BIGGER IMAGE ------> i55.tinypic.com/30lmq0w.jpgSOURCE:books.google.se/books?id=5pCBRsfJMv8C&lpg=PA102&dq=doric%20greek%20albanian&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q=toponyms&f=falseHow does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan? As we concluded earlier(and wich your quote also tells us) its not clear whether illyrian was centum or Satem, therefor that can not be used as an argument against the albanian-illyrian theory. [/blockquote] How does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan?[/quote] Read first answer.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 30, 2011 21:39:37 GMT -5
How does this contradict the fact that Albanians are indigenous in Balkan?
It means that Albanians can not connect to Illyrians on any level unlike Slavophones whose genesis is a genesis of gradual slavization of romanized Illyrians over many centuries hence why the movement was called Illyrian movement.
This doesn't mean that Albanians are Dacians either but that they seem to have influenced the linguistic aspect regarding Albanians.
Again, I believe that digging deeper in the Norman presence in 12 century will bring about more light relating to how Albanian puzzle as we know them today was finalized.
Lazar, I am posting this knowing I can not change his mind and I am not doing it for that reason.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 3:27:10 GMT -5
The Italo-Albanian villages of southern Italy By George Nicholas Nasse
Page 43 He says the Italo- Albanians are more intelligent, industrious, ... When the.... Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century they called the region 'Arborea' and refered to people as forest dwellers. ... books.google.com/books?id=VjArAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&dq=Normans+Albanians&hl=en&ei=Q3FGTafPCoaCgAfS0umJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albanian&f=false------ Albania past and present By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi iSee Ch. 9, pp. 94-100; also pp. 111-120.
p.21 In 1081, the Normans, who had already established themselves in Southern Italy and Sicily, invaded, under Robert Guiscard, the territories of Central and Southern Albania. The invasion was undertaken as a means of reprisals against the Emperor of Constantinople with whom Robert had had a family quarrel. It is believed that the Normans are the sponsors of the name "Albania" under which the country has ever since been known to the world. books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=falseSo the name Albania appears to be a corruption of the name given initially by Normans. Another rabbit has been pulled out of the historical hat it seems. ;D
Albania past and present By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi
CHAPTER IV THE RULE OF THE CASTRIOTAS
p27 I. FEUDAL GOVERNMENT The interesting feature of Albania at this time is her feudal character, inasmuch as she is the only country of the Balkan Peninsula into which feudalism, in its western European form, was introduced and maintained for a long time. Traces of the feudal regime are still surviving in certain parts of Northern Albania. Feudalism was transplanted in Albania by the Normans and the Crusaders. books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false------ The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle Page 65 From around 1190 to 1216 the first medieval Albanian state won a brief independence under native archons. It would be interesting to know if any of these claimed "Frankish" or Norman decent. Certainly when the Angevins ol southern Italy created a puppet Albanian state in 1272 many local lords adapted feudal titles and adapted associated forms of behavior. ... books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+to+Albania&hl=en&ei=D3pGTeiPC4TqgQezn8GSAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%20Albanian&f=false------- The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle
P64 Many such mercenaries settled in Byzantium and founded long-lasting military families. ... A group of warrior families called the Maniakates, descended from Normans serving the great Byzantine general Maniakes, settled in Albania. ... books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+settled+in+Albania&hl=en&ei=pX5GTZHxMcKSgQfvhIXHAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Maniakes%20settled%20in%20Albania&f=false___________ So huge number of troops, entire economic system set up by Normans unique in Balkans and name Albania given by Normans is what we have insofar.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 31, 2011 3:32:26 GMT -5
From where did the Normans bring them though, that's the question.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 3:36:47 GMT -5
Still working on that Krivo, patience... youngster...is a virtue, but a strong clue is that their language has a noticeable influence of Persian words and Normans were in Armenia which is Persian vicinity and their zone of influence.
So far I deduce that a large Norman army was in Albania with intention to conquer Byzantine empire itself and that many of its troops were not even Norman it seems. In Caucasus general region they had locals fighting for their cause under Norman name.
(I have not even started with inspecting what happened with Saracens and especially renegade Byzantine General George Maniakes who had fought together with Normans against Byzantine emperor centered out of south Italy also in Albania)
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 4:30:40 GMT -5
Why dont you actually read my sources? what do you have to say against the fact that Albanian share cognates with Dacian? what do you have to say against the fact that the earliest loanwords in Albanian is from Doric greek?
Your google books quotes does nowhere state that Albanians have their origin outside the Balkans. However, my academic sources clearly state that its consider "established" that Albanians originated in the Balkans. What do you have to say against my sources? wich clearly disprove all your statements?
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Post by ushtari on Jan 31, 2011 4:58:25 GMT -5
Let me see, so you base all your idiculous statements on the word Albania, wich is a early proto-european wich refers to snow covered mountains in Latin? Do i have to enlight you that scotland for example was called Albania during middle ages, with your logic we must have our origin their also. Do have to enlight you that there is no moden serious historian/linguist who claim that Albanian have it origin outside the Balkans? Do i have to enlight you that our language clearly proves that we originated in the Balkans? again, instead of quoting wikipedia wich nowhere claim Albanians have their origin outside of Balkans, can you please try disprove my ACADEMIC sources?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 5:14:27 GMT -5
Why dont you actually read my sources? what do you have to say against the fact that Albanian share cognates with Dacian? what do you have to say against the fact that the earliest loanwords in Albanian is from Doric greek? Your google books quotes does nowhere state that Albanians have their origin outside the Balkans. However, my academic sources clearly state that its consider "established" that Albanians originated in the Balkans. What do you have to say against my sources? wich clearly disprove all your statements? I already covered the topics as far as lack of substantial Greek influence on Albanian language which itself suggests non-illyrian origin. Nothing can say anything conclusive about Albanians cause they are an enigma and their origins remain an enigma and appear associated in a great way with Normans. Dacian connection is assumed by rather inconclusive deductive logic then by any other reasoning and it could easily have to do with assimilating local migrating Vlachs more then anything else. There is no way any Dacians maintained their separate linguistic identity until 11 century AD and then Albanians appear considering that region of roughly Dacia encountered numerous Germanic (Gepids, Goths etc), Turkic (Pechenegs, Cumans, Bulgars etc) and Slavic invasions and was perhaps by far the most unstable of regions in Europe. Let me see, so you base all your ridiculous statements on the word Albania, wich is a early proto-european wich refers to snow covered mountains in Latin? Do i have to enlighten you that Scotland for example was called Albania during middle ages, with your logic we must have our origin their also. Do have to enlighten you that there is no modem serious historian/linguist who claim that Albanian have it origin outside the Balkans? Do i have to enlighten you that our language clearly proves that we originated in the Balkans? again, instead of quoting wikipedia which nowhere claim Albanians have their origin outside of Balkans, can you please try disprove my ACADEMIC sources? I am not saying that Albanian populace is non-Balkan in origin which clearly genetics if anything else prove that they are Balkanic in origin. What I am saying is that your language is likely introduced by people brought by Normans from possibly Armenian direction (considering the influenced of Persian words). It appears to be the more recent non-Balkan intruder. The name of Albania did not exist for the same country today until it was introduced by Normans and it seems corruption of original Norman name
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 31, 2011 5:28:29 GMT -5
People who entered Balkans and who could have each easily decimated small proto-albanian (linguistically speaking only) population that might have existed there at the time in related areas; - Serbs slavize massive numbers of mountain dwelling Vlachs (so mountain dwelling population would not be immune) - Bulgars get slavized and then slavize massive numbers of Vlachs - Gepids settle in Dacia only to be destroyed by their kin (Lombards) - Avars wrech chaos across Balkans and threaten the city itself (Yet Albanian handfulls are safe and sound ) - Turkic Cumans and Pechenegs (1000 to 1300 AD enter Balkans through Dacia. (roughly same time Albanians appear) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
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