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Post by drinus123 on Feb 13, 2011 12:56:41 GMT -5
I look at it from a realistic point of view instead of the way I would want things to be. I'm glad srbobran agrees with me.
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Post by bordura on Feb 13, 2011 13:01:56 GMT -5
Haha, that was a nice story. tell me more. I'm not the type of person that would discourage people from their achievement. But what you said is exaggerating it. just like that? you woke up the next morning and you had freedom of speech, economy and elections. you woke up a rich man with a high standard of living. no you barrel head; we didn't woke up the next day with freedom. it took another sacrifice few months later that date: Feb 20 when again my friends went to demonstration. Regime was lingering but didn't give up easy. We called a hunger strike and that lead to Hoxhas symbol taken down. But you are right that movement got stooped in the tracks people like Berisha (communist) hijacked it and that's why you have again people on the streets of Tirana. your a sad case, i don't know who tells you what, but obviously you know shit
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Post by drinus123 on Feb 13, 2011 13:18:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately as you see many Albanians have this loser type mentality. They will live their whole life believing in myths like these. The student movement had about as much impact as Egypt demonstrations did. Now, Egypt has no government and is controlled by the military. And the people don't really know what to do.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Feb 13, 2011 13:49:28 GMT -5
Communism had fallen everywhere... Albania was the last bastion to hold out..it was inevitable what the future was going to hold... IMO,I don't think the students accomplished much... other than a fly sitting on an elephants eye... and the elephant goes to swat it and falls of the cliff and dies.... (sorry for the long analogy) but it was doomed to fall...
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Post by la3ar on Feb 13, 2011 14:01:19 GMT -5
Unfortunately as you see many Albanians have this loser type mentality. They will live their whole life believing in myths like these. The student movement had about as much impact as Egypt demonstrations did. Now, Egypt has no government and is controlled by the military. And the people don't really know what to do. A (temporary) police state experiment?
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Post by toskaliku on Feb 13, 2011 15:42:25 GMT -5
How do you guys explain Cuba and North Korea?
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Feb 13, 2011 16:05:59 GMT -5
Cuba and North Korea are governed with an iron fist.... I am sure ,Cuba to a a lesser extent, that north Korea has it's jails and cemeteries full of dissendents .Also NK has China for support.
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Post by la3ar on Feb 13, 2011 16:10:08 GMT -5
You denying that the USA has the same?
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Post by zoti on Feb 13, 2011 16:42:29 GMT -5
Very wishful thinking. The Egyptian people "won" simply b/c western lobbyists allowed them to Can you please be a little more specific as to these Western lobbyists? And why didn't those "Western Lobbyists" change the course in Iran in 1979 or in North Korea and Cuba today. This is one of the biggest lies and exaggerations ever. I hear it a lot. Albanians didn't care about the regime change. As a matter of fact it was last country in Europe to overthrow it in most peaceful means. The student protests in December 91' didn't do anything. communism by then was already over in most of europe. Drinus can you please explain what about my post is a "lie" or an "exaggeration." Because I believe my post was only about what the people in Tirana were going through and how I can relate to what the Egyptians are going through now. Also have you ever lived in Tirana at any point in your life? But you were right about one thing though we were fools believing that the regime changed but 20 years later the communists are still in power under Sali Berisha.
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Post by la3ar on Feb 13, 2011 16:59:53 GMT -5
Who do you think toppled the Shah?
As for Cuba, N.Korea...maybe it's part of the tide.
When I say "western" I don't mean only Americans.
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Post by bordura on Feb 14, 2011 2:08:03 GMT -5
i'm just curious whats your source of info regarding Student movement. tirana had severed links with Russia, China, USA, England, Germany, Israel. Was no east no west in the standard form of what west and east was. To Tirana regime, Moscow was the enemy same as Washington was. Tirana regime managed to survive for 30 year after cuting relations with Russia and 20 years after China... The only outside influence was the eye opening changes around eastern Europe. Same as Tunisia and Arab world. People get more courage when they see examples and when examples are coherent. But is no doubt that the Tirana regime gave up power only because the popular tide grew to the point they chocked. So according to you geniuses the regime figures choose to march themselves in a file to the prison cells?
The sad thing is not that some people live with myths. The sad thing is how lies and ignorance becomes the story. For some is even worst; they brains are so uneducated and informed that the only way to connect or to explain phenomenons is conspiracy theories.
Mei the force be with you all Spaceballs!
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Post by zoti on Feb 14, 2011 10:41:02 GMT -5
Who do you think toppled the Shah? As for Cuba, N.Korea...maybe it's part of the tide. When I say "western" I don't mean only Americans. Nothing you said here answered any of my questions. According to many of you there's this "invisible hand" (call it what you want Western Lobbyists, secret service agencies) that is responsible for every political movement in history and that change doesn't come from the masses but only from the top. Well since very few of you lived in Tirana in 1990 many here have no idea about the brutal economic conditions we were living under. Food was rationed where a family could only get 1kg of meat a week. Same for sugar, coffee and other basic necessitites. In the end they even rationed eggs (12 eggs a month if I'm not mistaken). Clothing was almost inexistent since we didn't trade with any other country and our own production almost came to a halt. We were in the same condition North Korea is today. For many people the only choice was to flee the country and some tried and those who failed faced long prison sentences and for those who suceeded their families were sent to labor camps. There were 4 brothers who had snucked into the Italian embassy in 1987 and asked for political asylum. They stayed there for 3 years as they couldn't live the country and in 1990 many emulated them and stormed the German, Italian and French embassies. They all risked execution under the current Albanian law. All in all about 3-4,000 youth spent a whole Summer in the sweltering heat of the backyards of those embassies. The night they left Tirana in busses was one of the most harrowing nights I've ever witnessed with thousands of wailing mothers lining he streets of Tirana at midnight as they saw their sons living in buses not knowing what fate had in store for them. Was there a grand design by foreign Westen masterminds concocting the change in Albania? Perhaps. But it couldn't have been done without the people in Tirane, Shkoder and Kavaje who rose up against the regime.
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Post by toskaliku on Feb 14, 2011 23:39:58 GMT -5
Oh and just so everyone knows, the country is still under the grips of the military, the elitist system that has dominated Egypt since Mehmet Ali Pasha way way back. This wasnt the first revolution in Egypt, it is one of many that the country has been rocked with in the last century and even more since the old Ottoman days. I have a feeling that this is different, but people held the same hopes with Nasser. If there are no disasters like the wars with Israel were decades ago, then Egypt might have a chance at some good long term reforms. The fact that protests are going on all over the Middle East is a good sign that the anciens regimes that have dominated these countries are greatly weakened. I hope that the people don't settle for handouts but keep on fighting. The only thing that destroys a great revolution is settlement for some weakling compromise. Omar Suleiman has been completely discredited thanks to Wikileaks, so the military cannot place him. www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/2/11/the_egyptian_revolution_a_democracy_now_special_on_mubaraks_resignationROBERT FISK: Well, you can have a little bit more than two minutes. I was actually on the street with the protesters outside the state television center on the Nile at the moment they heard the news that Mubarak had, um, had effectively resigned. Resigned, mind you, to the army, I noticed, not to the vice president, which may be something they’ll think about tomorrow. But, the crowds, they – they – that wonderful line from Siegfried Sassoon about the crowds on the day the first World War ended, suddenly everyone burst out singing, came to mind. Here, in this case, it was and shouting and screaming and praying, and there were men literally kissing the filthy tarmac of the road and praising god, and there was a soldier in the Egyptian third army who just burst into a smile of joy when he heard the news. It was quite clear that the soldiers themselves were immensely relieved that the man had gone. Um, and I suppose, you know, I’ve been through a few revolutions including the Iranian one, which turned into a very sinister affair, and obviously revolutions often end in betrayal and sub-revolutions, and there’s always that moment when you’ve been out in a place like this, for 36 years in the Middle East, and you say, “Well, hold on a minute, what happens tomorrow?” The army council took over from Mubarak. This country is now being run by the army. Countries run by the army are not always very pleasant democracies. But, the army has insisted there will be fair elections. They want the people to go home, which I think they will not do immediately, but I think the relief of Mubarak going, especially only 24 hours after he told them in a miserable, self-regarding, narcissistic speech, that he was staying on, which no one could believe this morning, couldn’t believe that he was actually, you know, he had chosen to stay, that within 24 hours he is gone. It’s an enormous relief. These people, remember, many of them are frightened to go home in case they’re arrested by state security police if Mubarak was staying on. They believe that, you know, that this was a situation which they had to fight on and continue to refuse to be afraid, because if they didn’t cling on in Cairo, and today they were taking up more and more of Cairo, walking to the presidential palace here in Cairo and in Alexandria, ah, moving in on Tahrir Square, they were taking over more and more of the parliament grounds right up to the steps of the parliament itself. And I think it was – I think it was inevitable, although my understanding from my own sources is that the army simply gave up and said, we cannot, you know, we’re being humiliated by this man. I should add, however, that, and this is sort of the dark side of, I suppose, my response to all this, that effectively generals now run Egypt. And you’ve got to realize generals brought Nasir in in 1952. It was the army who – Nasir being a colonel then, of course – it was the army which introduced dictatorship to this country so many year ago. It has been the army who’s propped up, um, the regime. You’ve got to realize even the current cabinet, and so far it still exists, which was appointed by Mubarak, the new cabinet. You know, the vice president was a general, the prime minister was a general, the minister of defense was a general, the Minister of the Interior was a general, and now we’ve had a whole series of generals meeting today, fighting like vultures over the political corpse of Mubarak for new ministries, and that’s what this is about – it’s about an army takeover, whether you can have a coup de tat when in fact the people demanded the revolution, I don’t know. The revolution got rid of Mubarak, and this is undoubtedly, tonight, a risen people, but I always put up the word “but” after such statements.
AMY GOODMAN: And what you see, I mean, it’s of course impossible to see exactly what will happen now, though it is hard to believe that millions of people in the streets, not just of Cairo but of Mahala, Alexandria, and Suez, all over Egypt, that it could lead to anything, that this is certainly a trajectory toward democracy, but it, as you’ve said, isn’t necessarily, so what formations do you see could send it in that direction? Shape it?
ROBERT FISK: Well, the people who have been, um, trying to curry favor with the vice president, Omar Suleiman, Israel’s favorite Egyptian because he’s in charge of negotiations, Hamas Palestinian negotiations former intelligence chief, a rather ruthless man, um, they will – the 25 wise men, as inevitably the BBC clichéd them, um, various businessmen and leaders who offered their services, they will now have to go and plead with the army for the reforms which the army has promised. What we don’t know, you see, since the constitution itself was made of rubber since it was invented by the various dictators, Nasir, Sadat, Mubarak, is the way in which these negotiations could be carried out. Armies love power. They don’t like giving up power. So, the next question becomes, ok, if you have a democratic constitution, limited terms for a president, only two terms for example, as in the US, maybe four years rather than six years, fair elections so you don’t have this merry-go-round of fake elections which effectively kept Mubarak in power on a spinning merry-go-round for 30 years, um, will the army want a few of its generals in the government? We have extraordinarily seen today of Mohamed ElBaradei, famous Nobel Prize winner, UN ex-arms inspector, turning up in the square and saying, ‘Egypt is going to explode. We need the army to step in.’ I mean, I thought Baradei was supposed to be a civilian who wanted civilian rule in Egypt. And the big question next, of course, is will the army who have claws like talons for the rewards of office – I mean, most of the modern top generals here at the moment in the army council who – to whom power is being given – they all reap the awards of the regime in shopping malls, hotel chains, banking acquisitions, are they going to give up all these wonderful gifts they receive from the Mubarak regime and in some cases from the Sadat regime in order to have a true and functioning democracy? Or are they going to say, ‘Well, we’ll have a few nice civilians to represent the people, we love the revolutionaries, now go home.’ State security comes back, works for the same old masters, and elections, well maybe they’ll be free and fair, but, you know, there’ll be a few colonels, generals who’ll stand, bribes will be handed out. This is the kind of thing in the future, but, frankly tonight you can’t expect Egyptians to go through that.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you think you would see this when you landed in Cairo, Robert? When did you get to Cairo?
ROBERT FISK: On the 25th, the day it started. Um, well, it had already started, but I rushed here from Beirut for it, and on the 25th, so I was here on the day. Um, I thought it would go when I saw the state security police beating and savaging hundreds of thousands of protestors, and in the end I saw them come forward and they fought the thugs, plainclothesed thugs who had sticks and iron bars and knives, and they literally beat them and smashed the state security police and burned their trucks, and I thought, ‘If they keep up their courage and they stick to it, it’ll be okay.’ The famous Coptic philosopher once said, ‘The Egyptians are a remarkably moderate people,’ but I think if you’re trying to fight state power and brutality, you probably have to fight, not just with words. And when I saw them fighting, and they were in clouds of tear gas, I was choking and vomiting on it, I thought that if they stick to it they’ll get it done. And they have. I’m going to have to interrupt you and say I’ve got to do some work for my paper (laughs).
AMY GOODMAN: Hey, Robert Fisk, thanks so much for being there, as you are everywhere through the Middle East reporting for us for decades. Thank you very much.
ROBERT FISK: Take care, bye-bye.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
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Post by donnie on Feb 15, 2011 6:38:04 GMT -5
Having lived in Tirana when the regime changed in 1990 I can only imagine what the Egyptians must be going through. They must be filled with a sense of elation for Mubarak's fall and trepidation of what's to come. I wish the best to the Egyptian people. If our idiot PM would heed the will of the people. Wishful thinking I know. Very wishful thinking. The Egyptian people "won" simply b/c western lobbyists allowed them to If it'd been up to the Americans, they would have not seen Moubarak toppled. Obama's cautious approach, much similar to that of most Western leaders, is a testimony to the exact opposite having happened; that this was not a top-to-the-bottom staged coup, but quite the contrary, it was an unexpected popular explosion that placed the Americans in a delicate position. On one hand, that Egypt was more or less an autocracy could not be denied, and here you had the people going out to the streets to reclaim their own country. To not support their cause would be to contradict US official line of promoting democratization throughout the world. But on the other hand, Moubarak to them proved to be a safe card, an ally or satellite however you wish to see it, that ensured stability and cleared Israel's back. This is not a position the US would willingly put itself in. That is why their approach was a cautious one, wanting to see how it all was going to develop. Because a democracy or free elections in a strategic country such as Egypt puts into motion far more variables than the US would like to handle, esp. since its interests in the ME are at stake.
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