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Post by BibleRiot on Apr 25, 2011 9:46:56 GMT -5
Sorry if this has all been discussed here before, but I'd really like to get your views on how Greece should proceed in dealing with the after-effects of the credit bubble/crunch. As I'm sure you all know, one of the reasons the EU is offering to help Greece against the bond markets is because of the heavy exposure of EU banks to Greek sovereign debt. www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aCrRNlbKtrssQuestion is, should Greece accept this protection and hope that eventually the EU will issue Euro bonds, although perhaps at the cost to participants of greater fiscal integration, and hence German control? Would it be better to default now, with consequent possible ejection from the Euro, and certainly major difficulties in the ability of the Government to raise any money at all on the financial markets, but a lower long-term debt?
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Apr 25, 2011 14:58:01 GMT -5
I think Greece is going to have an extremely hard time getting out of this mess without some sort of restructuring.I am not talking of a full blown default but a restructuring under the careful eye of the EU.If Greece cannot enter the markets next year and it's economy shrinks even more I am afraid there's no other option left.
I think a Greek default will not harm the EU banks much... it will put a dent in their pockets..but thats about all. A default from Spain if it comes to that or even Italy... will seriously undermine a lot of the EU banks...
Bibleriot... where the heck have you been?
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Post by leandros nikon on Apr 25, 2011 16:40:26 GMT -5
I really have no idea about economics and perhaps i'm not going to say anything related to this thread directly,but i believe that there are two things that must be done in order to improve the economic situation. Corruption must be controlled and thieves must go to prison.Nobody has been punished so far.Stealing of public money should be discouraged. Second,the Americans and the E.U should control the turkish agression.Greece is obliged to spend huge ammounts of money in order to buy all these expensive american,french and german weapons.What if this money goes to investments?Then again,if Greece and Turkey stop buying weapons from these countries,it's not good for their economy,no? Btw,we are the only country member of the E.U together with Cyprus who face a serious threat from a neighboring country.Also,the fact that Greece will possibly not take advantage of gas and oil resources which are located at certain parts of the Aegean,has to do with the Turkish problem.And that's really big money hidden beneath the surface of the Aegean sea. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute
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Post by BibleRiot on Apr 26, 2011 7:02:08 GMT -5
Interesting points, Leandros. You know, it's quite amazing that none of the analyses I've read in the US and UK financial press have even mentioned this big gray thing with a trunk standing in the middle of the room. Greek defence spending is such a high % of GDP. Hi Canaris ! I've been organizing my new life as a retired person. House by the sea, etc. And you? How are the kids? One thing that isn't on that chart is that the country whose banks have as much exposure to Portuguese debt as Germany's and France's combined is Spain. The intervention to protect Portugal is really an attempt to cut a fire-break in order to protect the Spanish casas (smaller banks), because if they go down and drag Spain down with them, the whole Eurozone is in trouble, given the exposure of French, German and UK banks to the Spanish housing bubble. But the question remains. Should Greece restructure now and take the consequences, or should it borrow more from the EU if it can and hope that greater EU fiscal integration will help protect it from the consequences of that increased debt down the line? I'd say the latter, but so much depends on German domestic politics. At least the disgusting Westerwelle is on his way out.
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Post by leandros nikon on Apr 26, 2011 15:39:18 GMT -5
If only we could use this Aegean oil,this thread would have never opened... Anyway BR,wellcome back,i hope you are here to stay.
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Post by Arxileas on Apr 27, 2011 1:40:07 GMT -5
I agree with what leandros just said...In my opinion Greece needs the biggest internal investigation within it's self in it's history & it has to be independent from Greece's political parties or any political involment...The Greek people need to get back their country from politicians who are bending over for the E.U & U.S interests. And this is just the beginning, other countries would follow this financial bulling & robbery designed to cripple a nation to serve it's designers purposes that do not benefit it's people.
Welcome to the New World Order....Where money is used to control a nations destiny rather then fire a single bullet from a soldier...
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Apr 27, 2011 8:17:53 GMT -5
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Post by uz on Apr 27, 2011 14:19:48 GMT -5
^ This isn't news, they've been giving us this "prediction" for the past 10+ years.
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Post by mystery on Apr 27, 2011 16:31:56 GMT -5
I really have no idea about economics and perhaps i'm not going to say anything related to this thread directly,but i believe that there are two things that must be done in order to improve the economic situation. Corruption must be controlled and thieves must go to prison.Nobody has been punished so far.Stealing of public money should be discouraged. Second,the Americans and the E.U should control the turkish agression.Greece is obliged to spend huge ammounts of money in order to buy all these expensive american,french and german weapons.What if this money goes to investments?Then again,if Greece and Turkey stop buying weapons from these countries,it's not good for their economy,no? Btw,we are the only country member of the E.U together with Cyprus who face a serious threat from a neighboring country.Also,the fact that Greece will possibly not take advantage of gas and oil resources which are located at certain parts of the Aegean,has to do with the Turkish problem.And that's really big money hidden beneath the surface of the Aegean sea. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_disputeStop.. Why would Turkey attack an Euro/Nato member? Turkey will go to shit if they attacked Greece with sanctions, attacks, etc.. Greece is just trying to keep up with Turkey. Turkey is spending mass amount of money because they can.. Greece is trying to keep up to prove their might and not to look like the weaker neighbor. It's a bit like the Cold War with US/Soviet Russia.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Apr 27, 2011 16:34:22 GMT -5
I agree.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Apr 27, 2011 17:46:08 GMT -5
Turkey isn't interested in attacking Greece, we have worries at our other borders, Greece certainly is low on our priorities. I don't know why people can't comprehend that.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 27, 2011 20:52:02 GMT -5
Guys and gals, it comes down to Goldman Sacs and J.P Morgan manipulating the market, but strictly Goldman Sacs.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Apr 27, 2011 21:45:39 GMT -5
Goldman Sachs helped Greece at a cost of $350 million dollars to fudge up their books knowing well in advance the trouble that would bring them..It's like a Crack dealer who sells you drugs and puts bets that you will lose your home in 6 months... GS made money betting against Greece after they just finished helping them...
Now it's too late... Greece is paying credit card interest rates... for the money it owes.... They are done... the faster they restructure the better it would be for everyone.
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Post by Kassandros on Apr 29, 2011 13:22:26 GMT -5
Listen my theory: Gentlemen.. be patient and read it US military bases were kicked out of Germany and almost all EU countries. There is no need to be there and for sure its an "intervention" in EU as a "state". USA makes a deal with FYROM and they establish there their biggest military base in the world. Its in the middle of the Balkans and very important place to control SE Europe. Around 35-40.000 soldiers. Thats a real big army! That military camp needs a port to bring supplies for that army. Thessaloniki is the natural port of Balkans.. and of the Military Base too. Thessaloniki is controled by an EU country. That means, today the supply chain is ok.. but tommorow it may change if USA and EU have problems or a trade war between them. That possible scenario does not secure the supplies of the Base and Americans are not famous for leaving things by chance... US wants Thessaloniki. but how can you take a city today? A) Of course they cannot bomb Greece. Its an EU country, there is not oil ;D and nobody wants to kill 1,5 million good consumers of American products. (Only the citizens of Thessaloniki spend for imported products almost as the whole Balkan peninsula) Option A.One way is to form a puppet country in the north, start using the name "Macedonia", start speaking for the suppressed "Macedonian" minority of Macedonia.. and here it comes; Kossovo situation where America makes the laws. This way Thessaloniki becomes a perfect American port... officially. That option failed after Americans discovered that Gruevski was exagerated when he spoke about "1 million suppressed Macedonians". The 2.800 votes of the Rainbow party in the last elections.. cannot support such a move. This is why the ultimate American support for FYROM.. fades out recentrly and they left alone. B) Also they cannot buy it! Its extremely expensive .... plus many would object to that.. ;D Option B.Ethniki Bank, Eurobank, Alpha Bank and Pireus Bank stock used to be more than 50 euros 6-7 years ago. Almost every citizen of Thessaloniki bought a house with a loan the last decade. Today most of them cannot pay the loan. Banks take back the houses. The portfolio of the Banks include almost all the new buildings of Thessaloniki. The stock of these Banks today is extremely low. (I think 10 -15 euros) Whoever can buy these Banks... owns almost all the new buildings of Thessaloniki.... and since its a city and cities are made from buildings... whoever can buy these portfolios... owns the actual city! In other words... create a crisis.. and own a city! Vouala! ps. 2-3 weeks ago, the American-Jewish council visited Thessaloniki for 2-3 days. Its the first time ever that happend. Question: What and American-Jewish counsil is doing in a city where no Americans or Jews live My answer: Looking for appartments with view to the Thermaikos gulf maybe? ;D ;D ;D What do you think? Too conspiracy theory in it.. or just the new world order in action..?
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Post by leandros nikon on Apr 29, 2011 14:16:58 GMT -5
BR,sorry that my comments are out of topic.
Conspiracy theories,eh?Perhaps so.The new age people will turn the small european countries into protectorates as it seems.Ireland and Portugal will follow.
I wonder if we will ever demand a compensation from Germany because of war crimes,or even the obligatory war loan will ever be returned.About 300.000 greek citizens lost their lifes during the period 1940-44.Many of them died because of starvation.Greece was obliged to feed a very big nazi and italian faschist army during that period.No food for the local people.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 29, 2011 21:24:06 GMT -5
^ Leandros, that is why l'm deeply against the EU because economies cannot function independantly. Nordic economies are much different to mediterrean economies. I've said a long time ago that the larger EU nations will be the managerial class while the smaller nations *the worker class*.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 29, 2011 21:39:10 GMT -5
"Goldman Sachs helped Greece at a cost of $350 million dollars to fudge up their books knowing well in advance the trouble that would bring them..It's like a Crack dealer who sells you drugs and puts bets that you will lose your home in 6 months... GS made money betting against Greece after they just finished helping them..."
Yeah l know, it sucks man, if only the government were able to forsee what those dirty scum were going to do. But what worries me Kanaris, is the public debt ratio to GDP and moreso the government handling the ecomonic crisis, what are they doing?
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Apr 29, 2011 22:39:00 GMT -5
Right now they can't do much.They move one way the market moves another way.There's a million newspaper editorials out there speculating on Greece. Right now Greece has become the victim of speculating.
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Post by kijgol on Apr 30, 2011 9:51:30 GMT -5
Question: What and American-Jewish counsil is doing in a city where no Americans or Jews live My answer: Looking for appartments with view to the Thermaikos gulf maybe? ;D ;D ;D Listen my theory: Gentlemen.. be patient and read it US military bases were kicked out of Germany and almost all EU countries. There is no need to be there and for sure its an "intervention" in EU as a "state". USA makes a deal with FYROM and they establish there their biggest military base in the world. Its in the middle of the Balkans and very important place to control SE Europe. Around 35-40.000 soldiers. Thats a real big army! That military camp needs a port to bring supplies for that army. Thessaloniki is the natural port of Balkans.. and of the Military Base too. Thessaloniki is controled by an EU country. That means, today the supply chain is ok.. but tommorow it may change if USA and EU have problems or a trade war between them. That possible scenario does not secure the supplies of the Base and Americans are not famous for leaving things by chance... US wants Thessaloniki. but how can you take a city today? A) Of course they cannot bomb Greece. Its an EU country, there is not oil ;D and nobody wants to kill 1,5 million good consumers of American products. (Only the citizens of Thessaloniki spend for imported products almost as the whole Balkan peninsula) Option A.One way is to form a puppet country in the north, start using the name "Macedonia", start speaking for the suppressed "Macedonian" minority of Macedonia.. and here it comes; Kossovo situation where America makes the laws. This way Thessaloniki becomes a perfect American port... officially. That option failed after Americans discovered that Gruevski was exagerated when he spoke about "1 million suppressed Macedonians". The 2.800 votes of the Rainbow party in the last elections.. cannot support such a move. This is why the ultimate American support for FYROM.. fades out recentrly and they left alone. B) Also they cannot buy it! Its extremely expensive .... plus many would object to that.. ;D Option B.Ethniki Bank, Eurobank, Alpha Bank and Pireus Bank stock used to be more than 50 euros 6-7 years ago. Almost every citizen of Thessaloniki bought a house with a loan the last decade. Today most of them cannot pay the loan. Banks take back the houses. The portfolio of the Banks include almost all the new buildings of Thessaloniki. The stock of these Banks today is extremely low. (I think 10 -15 euros) Whoever can buy these Banks... owns almost all the new buildings of Thessaloniki.... and since its a city and cities are made from buildings... whoever can buy these portfolios... owns the actual city! In other words... create a crisis.. and own a city! Vouala! ps. 2-3 weeks ago, the American-Jewish council visited Thessaloniki for 2-3 days. Its the first time ever that happend. What do you think? Too conspiracy theory in it.. or just the new world order in action..? Your neighbors up north opened up a Holocaust Memorial. Maybe the Jews are looking to open one up in your city which boasted a large Jewish population pre-WWII. Compensation? Have the Greeks given compensation for the Slavs, Chams, Jews and other groups driven out after WWII? If you believe these compensation are the cause of your countries problems today then I don't know what to say. This is an example of a cheap ploy to distract the people from the real problems in your country.
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bato2
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Post by bato2 on Apr 30, 2011 11:26:00 GMT -5
That what's happen when you sleep with snakes like Goldman Sachs....You will wake up with poison on your system...
I believe we will see in the future, two economic zones in EU "The Northern Europe" and "The southern Europe"...Will be same currency probably but with different value(Like US and Aussie or Canadian dollar)
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