Arvanites are Hellenes & the Albanian propaganda.

[Hellenas]

Arvanites anthropologically Hellenes.

In anthropological studies of Theodoros K. Pizziou, the Aegean population Arvanites are different morphologically and to their characters compared with the Albanians. It states: "The examination of these groups (Arvanitofonon), one in Messenia, one and two in Argolis Korinthia showed that in no way stand out from the total population of the Peloponnese or from neighboring groups. In any of the ninety maps features designed not resemble each other more than with their neighboring geographical groups. Also, the statistical dendrogrammata, simultaneous comparison of several features not arvanitofones groups separated from the rest of the Peloponnese. This research shows that the Arvanites were only Hellenes.

As you can see to this video, most of Arvanites are of Mediterranean racial stock.

www.an-attiki.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=787&Itemid=103

A tall, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic type with dark hair and dark brown eyes, a straight nasal profile, and a tendency toward a lesser leptorrhiny than the total group. This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks, while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs. It, or a similar type, also occurs with Dinarics in northern Italy and the Tyrol. In northern Albania it is commonest in Malsia Jakovλs and Dukagin.

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-13.htm

You will never steal our Hellenic/Greek race.

Those fanatic Turkalbanians liberated Hellas/Greece from the Ottomans? Laughable...

The Greko-Arvanite Marcos Botsaris murdered by the Turkalbanians, at the age of 33 years old, fighting against the Turkalbanians at Karpenise and the Souliotes were not Albanians but a mix of Greeks(Epirotes) and of Albanians(Tosks).

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Arvanites the 8,5% of Hellas.

kleftouria.blogspot.com/

About the population:

Let us therefore begin with the question of population of Arvanites especially the 19th century when the language was spoken almost universally by Greeks with Arvanitic origin wand was easier to "discrimination", starting, not only to the generally accepted and comprehensive book K. Biris "Arvanites, the Dorians the younger Greeks, the history of Greek Arvanites.
Biris (Arvanitis himself) in the capital of the demographic review highlights the big mistake of those foreign (consuls, travelers) dealt with this issue which antiepistimonika easily identified the mixture of the indigenous colonist Arvanites were now bilingual as Albanians. ( 1)
Let's see what Johann Georg von Hahn wrote (Albaneische Studien, 1854) considered the father of alvanology and lived in Greece more than 20 years since 1843 as in 1869 he served successively as consul of Austria in Ioannina, Syros and finally in Athens as Consul General.. The table listed in the above book states in place of the population of Arvanites in Greece and ends in total 173,000 Arvanites when Greece was in accordance with the population census in 1856 1,096,810.
But Hahn in his foreword, which he wrote afterwards refers to his mistake he did in his list when he said about 10.000 Arvanites in Spercheios area and another 5.000 in Phocis, where as Mpiris admits(2), never existed!
He also writes in the foreword that many questioned his counts like Finlay(he've written about the Revolution and not only) who counted the Arvanites 100.000(3) even if strangely in his book(4) he raises the number to 200.000 with out analysing the distribution.
Accepting Hahn's writings as worthy being an albanologist and living in Greece so many years the number of Arvanites after his corrections is 158.000 which is about 14% of the population of the free Greece of 1854(Peloponnesus,Sterea Ellas,and Cycladic islands).
Analytically Hahn writes: 55.000 Arvanites in Attica and Boetoia(plus Salamina) in total population of 116.021.
In south Euvoia 25.000 Arvanites in 72.368 total population in the island.
In northern Andros(5) 6000 Arvanites in total amount of citizens 19.376.
In Argolis and in the islands of Argosaronic(Ydra,Spetses,Poros) he mention 47.000 Arvanites in total amount of 75.501 citizens of which the monolingual Hellenophones are found mainly west and north of Argos and in the two centers Argos and Nauplion.
Also he refers to the 15.000 Arvanites in Achaia and Korinthia in total population of 129.000. Those in Achaia live mainly in the so called Arvanitohoria or Zoubatohoria in the western Panachaikos and some villages in Dymis and Fares municipalities. In Korinthia the language exists in the eastern part and in the area of today Sykion municipality.
For the rest Peloponnesus he mention with questionmark 10.000 Arvanites who are located in small group of villages like these of the Soulimovillages Messinias(the Ntredhes), in the area of Zaraka in Lakonia, and in some villages in Hraia municipality in Arcadia(Paloumba etc)
Mpiris also mention and with Alfred Philippson(Swedish) who travelled in Peloponnesus in 1889 writing the «Zur Ethnographie des Peloponnes ,Pettersmans Mitteilungen»,1890. This researcher(who studied the ethnography of Greece,and especially Peloponnesus) counted the number of Arvanites in Peloponnisos and in the islands of Argosaronikos 90,253 in a total population of the area 730.000, meaning 12% of the whole area, and 9.5 of Peloponnesians. He also counts the total population of Arvanites in Greece of 1889(that is Greece with out Macedonia,Thrace,Crete and Dodecanese,and of course with out the Greek of Minor Asia and Pontos!). in the number of 224.000 when the population of free Greece was 2.187.208,that means 10% of the population were Arvanites.
In the same year a Patrinos doctor H.P. Koryllos wrote the "Ethnographia tis Peloponnesou,Patra,1890) after traveling throughout Peloponnesos and collected information having in mind opinions of mayor and parliamentals he reached in the conclusion that the number of Arvanites in Peloponnesos and the Argosaronic islands was 71.037(50.352 for Peloponnesos and 20.685 for the islands) that means in a total population of that area of 730.000 Arvanites make the 9.5% and for Peloponnesos the 7%.

Also the national British "Handbook of Greece,1918,Naval Staff-Intelligence Division,p.72) analysing Greece's athnography says that Arvanites are not more than the 8.5% of the population of the Greek state.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG
Philippson's map.

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Apr 13, 2011 20:47:17 GMT -5 jonleka said:

Soluiotes origins were not tosk Albanian but mainly Gheg Albanian that mixed with tosks in Suli. They started mixing with greeks only in 19 century so they were very Albanian until 19 century and very different from Arvanitis that lived in southern Greece.

The Hellenic Souliotes were not mixed with "Ghegs" but with southern Albanians=Tosks. They were Hellenes who mixed before the 19 century with Albanians and they also spoke our Hellenic language besides the Albanian one, you forgot to put that.

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Apr 14, 2011 7:08:07 GMT -5 @mel said:

no, rather Arvanites are Albanian tosks - who have been intermarrying Greeks down the centuries given common religion- since Coon states most Tosks are Alpine with a mix of dinarics but we also know they are (east) Mediterraneans along the coastline.

Arvanites are racially Hellenes(Atlanto-Mediterraneans or east Meds or Pontic Meds or Classical Meds or Aegean Meds) and not "Alpine Tosks". The Atlanto- Mediterranean Tosks now are of Hellenic racial origin, as the only source is Hellas, modern western Turkey, southern Bulgaria and southern Italy, those have connected by Carleton S. Coon to the Greeks. The Atlanto-Mediterranean Balkanians represent only Hellenes.


THE FOURTH is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C.

racialreality.110mb.com/genetic_variation.html

He states for the Greeks: The dimensions given above are for the most part quite variable; a number of distinct types are included, but the metrical character of the group as a whole indicates a blending of Dinarics and Alpines with Atlanto-Mediterraneans, which is confirmed by the observational data to follow.

The Dinaric elements in Hellas are:

The Greeks, in short, are a blend of racial types, of which two are most important; the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricisrn here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics.


The great breadth of the jaw, as compared with that of the forehead, is a Greek specialty, and is strongly contrasted with the inverted triangle face form of Albanian Dinarics.

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-14.htm

What does this prove? That only "Hellenes" are Mediterranean but not the Albanians where these Arvanites stem from?

Those Arvanites were of ancient Hellenic origin. Many modern Atlanto-Mediterranean Albanians probably came from Thrace, as a lot of Thracians moved in ancient Illyria(part of modern Albania) and later they returned back in Hellas(the homeland of Balkan Mediterraneans) as they felt more close with the Hellenes than with the Albanians and especially with the Turkalbanians.

Who is stealing what and what is Hellenic/Greek race... most importantly what does this have to do with the topic? why don't you open a topic on anthropology of the Balkans and there you can discuss what ever you want

Because you spread anti-Hellenic propaganda over here("albanian" Arvanites, Souliotes etc) and because the Mediterranean element in Albania is not Albanian, that's why. You try to steal our people who lived there by the antiquity and try to pass them for 'pure Albanians" and that's wrong as well. Why you never speak of the Hellenic elements in Albania? Albania is partially Hellenic and so Hellas is partially Albanian.

I think Greeks are by far most fanatic than Albanians but this is not the place to discuss about it

Hellenes never burnt an Albania flag, we never murdered an Albanian because he spoke Albanian in Omonia square(Athens) but you did that(you burn flags, murdered a Greek in north Epiros because he spoke Greek etc), so who's more fanatic? Albanians are the fanatics.

There is no such thing as Turkalbanians cause if there were, then there would be turkgreeks, turkserbs etc. Souliotes were clearly Albanian

The Souliotes were Greko-Albanians and the term Turkalbanian means moslem, the mercenary of the Turks.

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Apr 14, 2011 7:27:25 GMT -5 @mel said:

there are different numbers for Arvanites in Greece - estimates going from 2-3 million down to 200,000 - the point is we don't know cause Greece does not count Arvanites!!! It does not respect Arvanite cultural heritage and language, does not open schools for them to write their language but has been following a chauvinistic assimilation policy - this is sad considering how much have Arvanites have contributed to Greece!

Those who counted the Arvanites back then gave a number of 8,5% and that's just fine. We want to clear them from any albanian influence, we will Hellenize them all, even the last one and that's just fine.

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Slavic toponyms in Albania.

At first people in Albania thought it was a joke, but politicians in that country have proposed the creation of*government commission to “Albanize” all place names of Slavic origin…and there are many of those.
[...]



Current president Bamir Topi first mentioned the idea during a routine visit to a village in the country’s northeast. At first, it seemed like a simple gaffe made by a president who lacked better speech ideas for a minor event. But a few months later, Prime Minister Berisha also mentioned Slavic toponymy. Berisha, discussing the issue in one of his new government's first meetings, did not hesitate to take the idea further. “We have to create a commission to replace all the Slavic toponymy in the country with corresponding Albanian toponyms originating before the Slavic invasion,” Berisha said.
[...]
The stance, while not new, comes unexpectedly and is difficult to understand. The widespread Slavic toponyms, found all over Albania's territory, have always been a concern for Albanian nationalist intellectuals. These Slavic place names undermine a thesis crucial to the legitamacy of the Albanian nation-state and the basis of the country's nationalism: the story of Illyrian–Albanian indigenousness.
What is more, the prime minister’s statement derives from a common thesis found in Albanian classical nationalism according to which the abundance of Slavic toponyms across present-day Albania is a result of past invasions by neighboring states' and their repression of Albanian territory.
The valid view of the Albanian nationalist politicians and intellectuals is that the Slavic toponymy in Albanian lands was imposed by ethnic Slavic rulers who, at different times, dominated this part of the Balkans. This view assumes that Albanians were an indigenous people, continuously present without interruption, who were constant victims of waves of migration of other Balkan peoples. This view, in response to neighboring nationalisms, attempts to firmly exclude the presence of the Slavic population on Albanian territory.
In order to reconcile history with the existence of the present-day Albanian nation, this particular presentation of Albanian history depicts the Albanians as static and ethnically and culturally unchanged over time.
[...]
But the issue is very complex. Albanian territory is so crammed with Slavic place names that non-Slavic place names, such as those of Albano-phone, Greek, Turkish , and Italian origin, seem like a tiny minority.
Even Prime Minister Berisha’s idea to form a commission to create Albanian place names seems like a huge and costly initiative, not to mention being out of order and ridiculous on account of its primitive eighteenth-century nationalism. But for the time being Greek place names in southern Albania, Turkish ones in other regions, and Latin and Italian ones along the coast do not seem to be a source of concern.
[...]

Does this means that Albanians are Slavs?

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author=mikecanaris: So what.... a lot of Greeks dance like the arvanites... what does that mean? The chicken or the egg...? We don't know of your customs before 1200... they are not found in any book... so it's a safe bet you copied someone...

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author=Johnleka: Albanians asimilated into Macedonian slvas and serbs, so your theory of us being brothers dosent stand, sure we are closer to each other then slavs but still not brothers.
Greek and Albanian languages testify to this that we are not that close but we were neighbours for thousand of years so we should respect each other for that.

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Apr 15, 2011 3:16:16 GMT -5 @mel said:

Listen, I am not interested in your far fetched theories on the origin of Arvanites and your futile attempt to involve anthropology in this. (Anyone can read what Coon has to say on the Albanians and Greeks, believe me it is easy to refute your claims but this is not the place to discuss it)

There is not any claim from me but from Carleton S. Coon and from many other anthropologists and geneticists, the Mediterraneans of Albania are of Hellenic Aegean origin, they are not "albanians".
There is not any theory of mine, just from Theodoros K. Pizziou(an Anthropologist) and from Carleton S. Coon(another Anthropologist). Also since you speak about our people you will have some answers and no one cares if you interested or not.

What I and others have posted here is the opinion of real researchers and historians on the Arvanite community in Greece, mostly not even Albanians.

You forgot to include their names. The researchers and historians you say are just Albanian propagandists and Pan-Albanianists not scientists...the non-Albanians just are anti-Hellenists and pseudo-historians.

So, I have to ask you to respect this thread and the Albanian forum.

You have ever seen how much the Albanians respect Hellas and Hellenes in the Greek forum? You have first to respect us and then to ask from us to respect you. Anyway I respected you a lot in this thread, so what exactly are you talking about?

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Apr 15, 2011 3:25:26 GMT -5 @mel said:

We the Albanians, the fanatic ones, did not change any toponyms and you know why, because we know who we are and our identity is not threatened easily (but this does not seem to be the case for Greeks who erased all Arvanite toponyms - read the Greek historian Antonios Liakos on the this thread - I wonder why, if the Arvanites according to you were Hellenes, why erase toponyms...)

The Albanians changed the slavic toponyms to Albanian=fact.

The Arvanites racially were Greek-Albanians(they also spoke Greek), when they came in Hellas they became all Hellenes because they mixed with us and they assimilated as well. Why we erased Arvanite toponyms? Because we don't want anything alien to our culture(we will continue to do that), that's why.

You will never succeed to assimilate Arvanites and that is not because of us the Albanians but because of the Arvanites themselves - they are hard to break, a lesson you should have learned by now.

The Arvanites have already assimilated in Hellas, I don't know for Italy but over here they are all Hellenes now. You will never gain anything from Hellas, no schools, no albanian education no nothing, just forget them, ah, I forgot to include that the Arvanites hate the Turkalbanians, they fought against them during 1821, as well as against Turks and all other Moslems(Egyptians etc.).

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Apr 15, 2011 15:07:37 GMT -5 apollon12 said:

According the surnames, it is easy to find if an arvanitis is Gheq or Tosk. Most of Arvanites are came from Tosks, but some of Arvanites came from Gheqs or Kossovars.

Surnames or language have nothing to do with race as well, most of Arvanites are racially close to the Hellenes(Mediterraneans) and remind nothing of Albanians, that is what counts for me, racially they are just like us.

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Apr 16, 2011 2:09:43 GMT -5 @mel said:

The main articles on the history and language are taken from the fully referenced and sourced wiki protected article - ie with a consensus between Greek and Albanian members, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites, enjoy:

Albanians are and always were slaves of the system...during Byzantine times they followed the Byzantines, during the Ottoman empire they followed the Turks, during WW2 they followed the Nazis and right now they follow the American Zionists. What you give here are just Zionist nonsense not serious historical sources, just anti-Hellenic propaganda which serves the New World Order in the Balkans, similar to the Scopjan or Turkish propaganda.

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Apr 16, 2011 2:35:33 GMT -5 @mel said:

The Albanians changed the slavic toponyms to Albanian=fact.

please prove it - it must be easy since it's a fact

But I already proved it, the government changed the names, what else do you want?

it is alien cause they are of ethnic Albanian background - nevertheless they are more Greeks than majority of Greeks given their contribution and sacrifice for modern Greece, no backstabbing Greek government and authority or people should tell them otherwise.

They are not of "ethnic Albanian background" as they were mostly Hellenes racially who took more Hellenic blood over here and they integrally Hellenized. They also were bilingual, they also spoke Greek besides the Arvanite language. As I said... Forget them, you will never gain anything from Greece, neither from Italy, just nothing.

yes we know Greece has double standards for about anything. yes, we know Greece wishes them to fully assimilate but their traditions, culture and language are alive and kicking so no, I think quite the opposite. The point is not whether we forget about them or not - they deserve respect for whom they are and for what they want to be- so let Arvanites decide for themselves.

The Arvanites have integrally assimilated in Hellas, some of them just speak Arvanite in home and their tradition and culture is for the most part Hellenic with some cultural influences from southern Albanians(Tosks).

The only decide of Arvanites is(from your beloved Zionist source):

Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks as the result of a process of assimilation, and do not consider themselves to belong to Albania or the Albanian nation. They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbëror (in their language); the communities in northern Greece also use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Even the Jews of Wikipedia know that. Got it now?

as for your last point, whether arvanites used to hate turko-albanians or hate Albanians or love Albanians etc has no bearing on their origins, ethnicity and language so this most repeated argument is useless, but thanks for not forgetting to repeat it.

The Arvanites always hated and disliked your Turkalbanians as they fought during 1821 with all of their heart against them, so you will always hear that from Greeks and the Arvanites. Their origin was Greek and Albanian, their ethnicity changed from neo-Albanian to Hellenic and their language is full of ancient Hellenic words(mostly Thracian) besides the fact that they already speak Greek as well.

Now tell as about the migration of ancient Hellenic Thracians to the Illyrian lands(this includes modern Albania too)... You already were/are partly Hellenic in race.

[Hellenas]

Macedonian Toponyms in Albania

Risto StefovJanuary 11, 2010

Macedonian Topo-onomastic Nomenclature in Albania as recognized by the Investigative Studies of Russian Professor A. Selishchev

Foreign linguist uncovers Macedonian language

In the second half of the 19th century the Macedonian language gained the attention of foreign professors from various Slavic Study Centers; an interest which continues to this day. This interest unfortunately carries with it political connotations.

In the last decades of the 19th century, after Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria were freed from the Ottomans, the map of the Balkans was tailor-made with a single open question; what will happen to Macedonia? And with that question came the insistence that the three states, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria determine Macedonia´s fate by bringing it under the influence of their own orbit.

Besides their cruel propaganda that was put in play, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria used more refined methods to do the job which included employing linguistics experts to "uncover links of a common heritage" between the Macedonians and their South Slavic speaking neighbours. Depending for which center these so-called linguistic experts worked then they found connections between the Macedonian and the Bulgarian or Serbian languages.

Many of the professors and academics that came to Macedonia from abroad had little to no understanding of what the Greeks, Serbians and Bulgarians were trying to do to fulfill their megalomaniac wishes.

One of those academics who came to Macedonia and did research on the Macedonian dialects, their meaning and uniqueness, was the well known Slavist Vatroslav Oblak. Oblak published a book entitled "Makedonski studii" (Macedonian Studies) in which he gave serious support to the "Macedonian theory" that the Macedonian language stems from the Old-Slavic language as noted by his professor Vatroslav Jarich.

Professor A. Selishchev in Macedonia

Another academic and linguist to visit Macedonia and our main figure in the presentation of evidence with regards to the Macedonian language is the well known Professor from the University of Moscow and Kazanja, Afanasij M. Selishchev.

As a professor, most of Selishchev´s time had been dedicated to studying and teaching the Old-Slavonic language and doing comparative grammar studies with the other Slavic languages. Selishchev however has also dedicated a lot of time in researching the Macedonian dialects. In 1914, soon after arriving at the University in Kazanja, Selishchev took a trip to Macedonia where he spent over two months doing research on the Macedonian speech in Northern Macedonia; mainly in Tetovo and Tetovo Region.

There Professor Selishchev collected a wealth of material which he then organized and a year later published, in a report entitled "´Otchet o zan/ti/h za granitsej v letnee vakantsionnoe vrem/ 1914 goda´ _ Uchenye zapisi Kazanskogo Univerziteta".

In his report Selishchev gives us insight into a different picture of the demographics in Tetovo and Tetovo Region than the one we know about today. Thanks to his critical analysis and effort from nine decades ago, today we have a better picture of the demographics of that region.

Being familiar with the Slavic languages and with the Macedonian language, Selishchev, during his visit to Macedonia, made notes from what he observed in the various places he visited. These notes were then condensed and combined with other parts of his research in his book "Ocherki po Makedonskoj dialektologii", volume 1, Kazanja 1918. This can be verified by the fact, for example, that he mentions "Chetirijazichnikot" the four-language of Danaila, meaning he combined his results from his various other studies of the region.

In his study Selishchev has not only given us an extensive review of his study but has also classified the Macedonian dialects, a classification which is considered accurate to this day. Selishchev also took the provocative route, provocative then and provocative now, by placing the Macedonian language in the South Slavic group.

Direct contact between the Macedonian and Albanian populations

In another book written by A. Selishchev entitled "Slavjanskoe naselenie v Albanii" (Slav population in Albania) (Sofia, 1931), Professor Selishchev examines the effects of direct contact between the Macedonian and Albanian populations in the Balkans. Here he skillfully examines the dialectal and onomastic characteristics of Western Macedonian speech including the Macedonian speech which falls within the borders of today´s Albania. For his examination he draws on different historical, geographical, ethnographic, folkloric and other sources.

Besides his professionalism, accuracy and scientific approach to solving problems, Selishchev deserves a mention for conducting studies in the sphere of the Albanian, Greek, Turkish, Aromaic, Serbian and Bulgarian linguistic and cultural traditions. As a foreigner, Selishchev dedicated much effort to exhaustive study of the toponyms, dialects and speech of the Macedonian population in central and south Albania. The information and other material he uncovered and documented in his aforementioned book Selishchev smartly organized in the following chapters:

1. "Jugozapadnata granitsa, nejzinata rashirenost vo minatoto i postepenoto povlekuvanje kon istok" (South-western border, their dispersal in the past and their gradual easterly return)

2. "Politichkite, kulturno-opshtestvenite i etnichkite odnosi vo Albanija" (The political, socio-cultural and ethnic positions in Albania)

3. "Slovenski zaemki vo Albanskiot jazik" (Slav borrowings in the Albanian language)

4. "Slovenski topografski nazivi vo Albanija" (Slav topographic names in Albania)

5. "Jazichni posebnosti na slovenskoto naselenie vo Albanija) (Linguistic characteristics in the Slav population in Albania)

In the first chapter, apart from the language barrier between the Macedonian and Albanian ethnicities spoken since the beginning, the author presents us with a demographic profile of the region, which, according to the evidence presented, is hugely disproportionate between today´s situation and that of ten decades ago.

The Macedonian character in the phonetic changes in the toponyms in Albania

It doesn´t matter that Selishchev uses the attribute "Bolgarski" (Bulgarian) to describe the population in Polog, or "Slavjanski" (Slav) when referring to the Macedonian population in Albania ("Polog i ego bolgarskoe naselenie" , "Slavjanskoe naselenie v Albanii"), the material presented, including the toponyms documented by himself, refute his assertions because it shows that there are more particulars connected to the Macedonian than there are to the Bulgarian language. To illustrate this let us examine some of the work in Selishchev´s book "Slavjanskoe naselenie v Albanii". Let us look at the capital "x" (h) which occurs in large numbers in the Macedonian toponyms found and documented to exist in Albania and which has evolved into (o) as in "Boz, Bozanik (Bozhanik), Bozovets", keeping in mind that in Bulgarian these words still contain the letter (x) as in "bxz, bxzovina". Also, the Macedonian lower case (gj) in the topo-onomastic Macedonian linguistic material in Albania has evolved into an (e) as in "Pesjak, Kozel".

Selishchev ascertained that the names of the suffix -ec (from -gjcgj) are so frequent that they can be found in every corner of Albania, north and south as in "Ilinets, Grnets, Gradets" and many others. The change from "gj" to "e", he noted has taken place in large numbers where Macedonian words have entered the Albanian vocabulary as in "kotel, kobel, zagoren", zagoren from the word "zagorgjnx" meaning north wind.

In relation to the above, Professor Blagoja Koneski wrote: "In the evolution from "h" to "o" and from "gj" to "e" there is one old isogloss which is confined in almost all of the Macedonian linguistic territory, except for a narrow band in the northern Macedonian speech and in some speech in Pirin Macedonia".

In connection to the development of the vocal "l" in the "Slav speaking" population in Albania let us examine the toponym "Molchani" found recorded on a map of Northern Albania, between the Rivers Drum and Fani. Here "ol" is used in place of the vocal "l" which is specific to the Macedonian standard as opposed to the Serbian "u" (u) as in "vuk" (vuk) and the Bulgarian "xl" as in "vxlk-xt".

In western Macedonia we find the example "Vlche iz Belgrada" (later Berat) which Selishchev copied from the religious bed-roll in the Slepchenski Monastery, a script that belongs to the 16th -17th century. In today´s western periphery of Gelichnik we can also find vocal words that contain the vocal "l".

The micro-toponomy in Albania where the continuant "o" in the nasal form "on" appeared can be subdivided into two zones. The first, where the local speech is closely related to the speech in Western Macedonia, is in Central Albania, northwest of Debar downwards from Drim. The second zone is south of Goskova, between Moskopole and Korcha, Golovets in Berat Region and Dobrava. If the names in the north, with the aforementioned results, are part of the occurrences known in Debar Region, then those in the south, in which "on" (on) is similarly changed with "o", are part of the occurrences connected with Prespa and with the southwestern speech of Kostur Region ("roka, notre").

The isogloss with a preserved nasal tone in Kostur Region, it appears, had widened and moved to the southeastern part of Albania, which is present in the toponyms "Dhmbras, Lhnga, Rhmbets". Similar results resulting from the evolution of "on" to "hn, hm" are found in borrowed Macedonian words in the Albanian conversational speech as in "phndar".

The affricate "dz" characteristic in Macedonian speech, absent from the neighbouring south Slav languages, is found in Slavic place-names in Albania. One such example is the name of the village "Dzvezda" located east of Lake Malik.

In Albania there are many documented Macedonian place-names that are very old and can be traced back to the development of the consonant system of the Macedonian language. The sound "h", for example can be traced to when it was still preserved not only in the last position, but also in between vowels as recorded in the toponyms "Suha Gora, Vlahi, Metoh".

Indications are that the sound "h" began to drop out of Macedonian speech around the 16th century. Here is what Koneski had to say: "…we have indications that the Albanian language, due to contacts made, has been affected by western Macedonian dialects. If not consistently then to some degree "h" has changed to "f" not only at the end of words but also before and after consonants. The "h" is also lost in the beginning, between vocals and at the end of words particularly in the Tosk and south Geg speech".

Enlargement of Macedonian linguistics in Albania confirmed by toponyms

In addition to Selishchev calling the Macedonian population "Bulgarian" and "Slav", without national qualifiers, he has also called it Macedonian as it appears in the title and in the text of his book "Ocherki po makedonskoj dialektologii, Makedonskie kodiki 16-18 v."

The reason for Selishchev taking this route can be found in the fact that he, at some point in time, was a member of the Bulgarian linguistic elite and a large number of his books and articles were published in Sofia as editions of the "Macedonian Institute for Learning". Also in 1930 Selishchev was a select member of the Bulgarian Academy for Learning.

Selishchev´s book "Slavjanskoe naselenie v Albanii", mentioned earlier, first appeared in Sofia in 1931. The book is a result of serious linguistic work done in the analysis of the dialects and toponyms found within the borders of present day Albania. Another important aspect of this book, and of Selishchev´s work in general, is that he has successfully documented these linguistic characteristics and, more importantly, these place-names with archaic Macedonian origins.

In his unearthing of facts and an abundance of materials, Selishchev has given us a picture of the political, cultural, societal and ethnic attitudes in Albania, suggesting that the Macedonian ethnic element has spread from Kostur to Ohrid and along the flow of the rivers Bistritsa, Vojusi, Semeni and Shkumbi. To the north the Macedonian migration was only stopped by the presence of the inaccessible Chermenika Mountain Massif.

We can confirm this by the large number of "Slavonisms" found in the topographical nomenclature of Albania, some as found on a map of the region. If we examine the valley of the River "Vojusi" for example, we find place names such as "Belitsa, Zagon, Mogila, Izvori, Koachi, Gradishte, Tserkovina, Sus**tsa, Vari-bob" which are all of Macedonian origin. It is interesting to note that during one of my visits to Albania, as a guest of the University of Tirana, I came across these toponyms marked on a list as "Places of archeological interest". If we continue with our examination, we will find more Macedonian names in the valley of the River "Osum", names such as "Razdol, Voditsa, Treska, Osoja, Gradets, Korita, Sirak, Vrtopi, Goritsa, Rudine" and many others.

A second spread of the Macedonians can be found in the Tsrn Drum, in the northern part of central Albania, following the River "Mati". Even though there was not much to find here, according to Selishchev, there were footprints of a Macedonian presence left behind by the many Macedonian place names such as "Sushtsa, Goritsa, Gradets, Podgoritsa, Krstets, Sopoti, Proseka, Svetigrad, Bozhitsa" and others.

There was even a Macedonian presence as far as the seashores of the southern Albanian coast as confirmed by the following toponyms: "Poljana, Ramets, Sus**tsa, Voditsa, Peshchera, Radostina, Rupana, Kamnitsa, Zhabjak, Rogozhina" and others.

Pull of the Macedonian settlement in the east

The Ottoman occupation of Albania came with great violence which brought serious changes to the region; the most significant being the fast and widespread Islamization of the population. This difficult condition caused a great deal of hardship and many Macedonian families then living in central Albania relocated east to Macedonia and settled in the Gorni Polog, Debar, Prespa, Ohrid and Bitola Regions. The most prevalent being Debar Region where many of the descendents of the first settlers still live to this day. One such example would be the village Rosoki.

According to Selishchev many of these families, until some time ago, maintained contact with their relations in Albania.

The Macedonians who remained in Albania endured terrible conditions and, under pressure, slowly became Albanized. Regarding the motives for the Albanization, Selishchev explains that the advantage of an Albanian over a Macedonian, particularly regarding religion, was nurtured by the cohesion of the Albanian tribal group which gave voice to social life. The children born under these circumstances, it is understood, learn the mother tongue of the dominant group thus forcing the Macedonians to melt with the Albanians. In other words, the more political and social pressure put on the Macedonians the more likely they were to speak Albanian thus suppressing their own language.

According to Selishchev, as he explains in the latest edition of his book "Slavjanskoe naselenie v Albanii", Albanian expansion to the east was most vigorous during the 14th and 15th centuries. These were violent and turbulent times as Albanians spread outwards to other neighbourhoods. As they widened their movements to the east and to the north the Albanians put pressure on the Slav speaking populations causing turbulence and destruction. This expansion, which began in the 14th century, subsided towards the end of the 17th century but did not end until the 18th and 19th centuries.

The weak Turkish governments, self appointed Albanian Pashas, weak economic base in the mountainous settlements, ravages of war and running from bloody cleansing were all factors which motivated migration and the settlement of Albanians in Macedonia and Old Serbia. The second half of the 19th century brought even greater hardships particularly after the appearance of the various foreign Churches to the region with their reciprocal religious collisions. This immense pressure gave birth to the awakening of the Raja´s national consciousness and along with it came foreign adventure at the expense of Turkey´s weakened state.

Push of the Albanian element towards Western Macedonia

As the Macedonian population slowly migrated eastward, particularly in the second half of the 19th century, more Albanians came to Western Macedonia to Ohrid, Debar, Polog and Skopje Regions. During the period that followed certain circles of Albanian city dwellers got the idea of creating an autonomous Albania. Looking into the possibility of serving their own interests, a certain number of representatives and agents of the Austrian, French, Italian and other Governments, according to Selishchev, openly supported the idea of an autonomous Albania.

These Albanian yearnings found a strong expression in the "Albanian League" founded in 1878 (-1881), which not only had political meaning in the thought of establishing conditions for autonomy, but it put in place a mission to influence a wider audience in the ethnic awakening of the Albanians.

The desired autonomy was for a Greater Albania extending from northern to southern Albania and enveloping Epirus, Old (South) Serbia and parts of Macedonia down to Voden to the south, with Ohrid or Bitola as its capital.

Fearful of the negative consequences from such an Albanian desire for a Greater Albania, Russian Consul in Prizren I. Jastrebov, in an extensive report dated July 5th, 1879, among other things said: "as long as the Albanian League and the Prizren Committee are given the means to realize their appetites a great injustice will be done to the Slav world. Then Montenegro will need to cease to dream because its border will only extend to Drim; Serbia will need to excuse itself from Old Serbia, Prizren, Dechani, Ipek, Kachanik, Prishtina and all of Kosovo Pole will become part of Albania. Similarly Macedonia too must then be deprived of a large part of its western settlements on behalf of the aforementioned Albanian princedom".



The demographic boom of the Albanian population in Macedonia can best be illustrated by examining the most current census conducted by the Republic of Macedonia and comparing it to the results of the census conducted in 1912-1913 later published in Paris in 1920.

Here is a sample of what the Albanian numbers looked like in 1912-1913. Polog, covering the Tetovo and Gostivar Regions, registered 43,230 Albanians, Debar Region registered 33,375, Bitola Region registered 14,400 and Skopje Region registered 13,240 Albanians. (Selishchev quoting J. Ivanov)

Looking to support their own confirmation "that there are no Macedonian settlements in Western Macedonia", Albanians are working hard to slowly Albanize the Macedonian population. Here is what Selishchev has to say: "Documented data shows that some places in Western Macedonia became Albanian in the 19th century, even in the last decades of the century in question. This kind of confirmation can be found, for example, in the religious bed-rolls in the Jovan Bigorski Monastery in Debar. The bed-rolls here are filled with names of patrons who donated to the Monastery dating back to the end of the 18th and to the start of the 19th century. These patrons were residents of the many villages in the Debar Region. Even though many were Muslims and considered to be Albanians, they were registered in the bed-rolls with Macedonian names such as "Bogoja, Volche, Ognen, Beztsena, Slavka, Bilka, Tsveta" and others.

Patrons such as these can also be found in Western Debar Region. For example in the village Halajbegovtsi we find registered the names "Milosh, Petro, Sorbin, Giorgio, Neveno". In the village Blato we find "Bozho" and others. Similar situations exist in the villages Konjari and Balantsi in the south part of Debar Region. Patrons named "Jadro, Bogdan, Volkush, Torpko" and others also existed in Golo Brdo in the village Bilishta. These villages are now all considered to be Albanian".

In the village Gorna Reka, which today is considered an Abanian village, Selishchev claims that earlier in time this was a Macedonian settlement. According to his research he found a large number of familiar Macedonian names with "-ov" (-ev) endings in "today´s Albanian" population.

Selishchev says that "Bilbilevh, Lazarevh, Ukovh" are signatures of people from 40 to 50 years ago, from the 19th century. For example familiar names such as "Krasovit, Tomovit" belong to people who resided in the village Krakoritsa. The formative "-t" here is an element representative of the majority in the Albanian language. In the village Brodets, an Albanian settlement, exist familiar names registered with the suffix "ovtsi (-evtsi)" such as "Kuzovtsi, Popovtsi, Ivanovtsi". We would like to remind the reader that this is information discovered by Selishchev himself while doing his research in Macedonia.

Apart from the aforementioned information discovered in the Jovan Bigorski Monastery, Selishchev also notes other written sources he cited according to which "… in the last 30 to 50 years of the 19th century, the Macedonian language was spoken in Gorna Reka. For example, in the contributor´s list registering those who materially supported the publishing of Kiril Pejchinovikj´s (1831) book "Uteshenie greshnim" he mentions Gorna Reka residents from the villages Vrben, Grekane, Sentse and Belichitsa.

Basing his information on written documents that he discovered, from a historical point of view, Selishchev has noted many occurrences of Macedonian place-names existing in the past. Even though today these place-names cannot be found either because some of the villages were destroyed or abandoned or because they were renamed and given Albanian names, however, it is a documented fact that these place-names did exist in the past in abundance.

According to 13th century documents (1273), Carlo the First donated the village Zuadigoriza (St. Goritsa) to Sevastocrat P. Gropa in Devolskiot Kraj. In 1368 on an object given to the residents of Dobrovets the toponym "Shiroki Brod" located near "Lesh" is mentioned.

In comparison to the abundance of Macedonian place-names that existed all throughout Albania, there were relatively very few Albanian ones. According to Selishchev, among the 40 or so Macedonian place names that existed, only 4 were of Albanian origin. In total, Selishchev found over 1,200 place-names with Macedonian roots in Albania.

Here we need to emphasize that Albanian place-names can also be found in places which originally had Macedonian names and in time these names were either translated to Albanian equivalents or evolved into Albanized names. For example the Macedonian place-name "Chljrna Gora" was changed to the Albanian "Mali i zi", the Macedonian name of the mountain "Suha Gora" was changed to "Mali i vat" and the Macedonian name "Brodetslj" was changed to the Albanian "Vau".

Macedonian words used by the Albanians

According to T. Smiljanikj, the villages that in the past were Macedonian still contain a large number of Macedonian lexemes that exist to this day. These lexemes belong to the business and domestic economy existing in these villages. Putting it another way, there are Macedonian words associated with the house, dress, family relations, etc., that are still used by the Albanians today. Here are some examples;

"grazhd" ´space for livestock´,

"doma, skrivnica" ´auxiliary space for leaving things´,

"gati" ´cover of house´ (Selishchev noted that the formative "i" represents an element of the member morpheme in the Albanian language),

"strojnik" 'svat' – ´he who mediates for those involved in a wedding´,

"kolach, gajnik" ´rope for holding up pants´,

"kozhuf; rogozina" ´a cover laid on the floor, made of reeds´, "trem" (trem) ´roofed part in front of the house´,

"brana" ´farm implement for dragging over ploughed soil´, (in Russian "borona" (borona)),

"zavor" ´piece of wood with which the door is propped during the night´

In these names preserved are -kor, vor-, vr- ("saveno" ´closed´), in time their root widened to incorporate the formative "-t-" from the prefix, "zatvori" and in Bulgarian "zavorka". No (-t-).

Here we have the word "cheren" with a double meaning;

1. ´knife handle´,

2. ´a chain that hangs in the chimney on which a kettle of water is hung´, Russian "cheren", "cherenok".

In addition to what has been presented above, there are also Macedonian suffixes present in the Albanian language. Some of these are "-nik, -ets, -itsa, -ka, -ishte" as in;

"fisnik" ´nobleman´ (fis = family, kin),

"bes-nik, bes{tar" (bes-nik, besshtar) ´fiancé, he who gave word´,

"rap-iste" ´a place with tall trees, sycamore´ (´sycamore´, plane tree) and many others

It is understood that the largest number of borrowed words in one or the other language happened during a period when both languages existed simultaneously. That is when the population was using both languages at the same time and the speakers were unable to hold both languages in check (language interference).

First records of contact between the Macedonian and Albanian populations

Leaving aside how this enormous Albanian population growth was achieved in Macedonia in such a relatively short span of time, let us look at the facts of when, where and how the Macedonians came into contact with the Albanians.

According to uncovered information, it is estimated that the Macedonians first came into contact with the Albanians in today´s Albania and northern Macedonia during the 11th to the 13th centuries. This is confirmed on a crucible from King Militin, dated around 1299-1300, on which is written: "And everyone who will attend the festival (speaking about the festival held in November, in the St. George Monastery, close to Skopje), be it Greek, be it Bulgarian, or Serbian, Latin, Arbanasin or Vlah, is obliged to give lawful duty (tax) the same as those who give in Tetovo, in Grachanitsa and in all other churches".

In a document from the 14th century there is also mention of Albanians and Vlachs in the Logor locality. The document mentions that Stefan and Dushan of the Tetovo Monastery donated the woodlands and grazing lands in Novi Dol. In that, the Church donors emphasized that the donation is not to be used by those responsible for the mountainous grazing land, "not Arbanasin, not Vlahs". Regarding this, Selishchev notes: "truly the name "Albano-(num) or Arbanon(-um)" mentioned is found deep in antiquity (at Ptolemai, Georg. 3/13) but after that in the flow of many centuries that name (Arbanon-um) is not again mentioned, even though important anecdotes are heard in the territory of Albania". However, adds Selishchev: "The ancient ´Albanon´ can´t unconditionally affirm that there lived the ancestors of today´s Albanians because the names with "Alb- (Albion, Alba)" are widespread in Europe."

Subjective review of the Macedonian names in Albania

The Macedonian place-names that Selishchev discovered during his studies, he organized in subjective groups as follows;

names in accordance with the general views of regions: "Goritsa", a toponym readily found, present in many places and from it derived through Greek and Turkish variations is the name "Korcha", as well as the toponyms: "Chuka, Breg, Proseka".

names of places based on things: "Podbregja, Podgora, Podgorica, Zagorjani".

names of hollows found in maps: "Peshchera, Peshter, Dupjak, Korito".

names according to form as seen from the outside:

"Ostravitsa" ´place with hard rocks´,

"Pleshevitsa" ´flat part of a hill´,

"Shtrbets" ´toothless´ (shtrb means without teeth),

"Krstets" ´a place looking like a cross´,

"Glavenitsa" (glava meant head),

"Tupets", "tup" ´– of sharp´.

names according to geological composition:

"Bigor" ´a place with limestone´,

"Kamenik, Kamjani" ´a place abundant in rock´,

"Plocha" ´flat rock´.

names of level places, plains: "Po(l)jani" (close to which are the ruins of the ancient city "Apollonia". It is interesting to ask the question by what means did the "Slav speakers" connect their word Poljani with Apollonia? "Poljana" (meadow); "Dolina, Livada, Dolanets, Lozhani".

names which by some means are connected with the concept of ´water´: "Voditsa, Vodovisti, Blatsa, Blache, Mokra, Mochurishte, Mochani, Slatina, Izvori, Paroja" ´places where water is found when it rains´.

names of places given in accordance with the name of a neighbouring river: "Zadrina" ´the left side of the down flow of the Drum River´, Zarech ´place behind the river´.

names of places according to the position of the sun: "Senishte, Senichani" ´places in which the sun hardly shines´, whereas "Osoja" means the opposite, a place exposed to the sun: "Prisojani" .

names in accordance with the flora:

"Buk, Bukanik, Bushko Pole" ´oak forest´,

"Borovjan, Borich, Borova" ´a pine tree forest´,

"smola" ´sap´ (sap that is collected from the pine tree),

names derived from various trees:

"Smolenik, Smolika; Tserova, Tsertska" (derived from the name "tser" meaning oak),

"Koshtan, Kostenja" (from kosten meaning chestnut),

"Divjak" ´tree with wild fruit´,

"Bresnik, Breshtani" ´elm tree´,

"Topolovo, Topoljtsa" (from "topola", poplar tree),

"Vrben, Golo Vrbjani" (from "vrba", willow tree).

names derived in accordance with names from the animal world: "Zhabjak, Zhabokika, Rakovets, Volkovija".

names obtained according to colours: "Galishte" ´mountainous locality´. "Galitsa, Galichitsa" (according to Selishchev "gal" means "tsrn" (black)),

"Belitsa, Beleva" (rivers – the name is derived from the colour of the water) ("bel" means white),

"Morava" (name of a river named for the bluish colour of its water),

"chernava" (name of a river named for its blackish water).

A mountainous locality was named "Chermenika", according to Selishchev, because of the red rocks present there. Similarly a village was named "Cherveni" because of the red rock also present in its locality.

Archaisms preserved in place names

As we have stated earlier, toponyms are petrified names, names preserved by everyday use over long periods of time passed on from generation to generation in their exact form.

This is important for us to understand because by examining such names, particularly of peripheries, we can come to an understanding of the origins of the people who first named them.

In the toponyms documented in Albania by Selishchev we find a large number of archaisms which are not common appellative words and are rarely used today. Examples of such words are "Brod, Brodets" ´shallow place in a river, perfect for crossing´ stsl. "brodlj", sp. Rus. "bredu" ´slow moving´; the old word "brdo" in the appellative lexicon is frequently interchanged with the word "rid'" (rid) (hill), which is preserved in the toponymic lexicon.

According to Selishchev "Brditsa, Brzhdan, Stradobrda", stsl. "brljdo", Ukr. "berdo" means ´a slope on a hill´. The toponym "Mogila" means ´an elevated place´ as in "Bele Mogile". In Russian the word Mogila is associated with a ´grave´.

The archaic word "rupa" which today is rarely heard in everyday language, squeezed out of the word "dupka" (hole), exists today as a toponym in Albanian place names such as "Rupani", sp. slov. "rupa" ´hole in which the water of a stream disappears´.

The archaic word "sad" which means ´garden, orchard´ Selishchev registered in the toponym "Sadovitsa" sp. Rus. "sad" meaning ´a field planted with fruit trees, flowers´.

The toponyms "Helm, Helmitsa" (height, hill) support the Old Slav word "hlljmlj" which is no longer in use in everyday language.

Selishchev has also discovered Macedonian toponyms which have Turkish origins. For example the hill named "Shimshir" (bot. "Budzhus" comes from the Turkish word "shemshir" ´name of a plant´.

The name of the village "Serdari" comes from the Turkish word "serdar" meaning "chief or head".

The name "Gora Top" (where "gora" is Macedonian meaning mountain or forest and "top" is Turkish meaning clump or ball) has a dual name component derived from both Macedonian and Turkish. These examples confirm that Macedonians existed in Albania for a long time before and after the establishment of Turkish rule.

Influence of Macedonian on the Albanian language

Before examining the Macedonian influence on the Albanian language, let us look at the Albanian influence on the Macedonian language.

Outside of the usual borrowing of lexemes, which shows strong contact between the two groups, Seleshchev has uncovered influence in the phonetics in the Macedonian village Radozhda, located on the western slope of Lake Ohrid. Here in place of the Old Slavonic voice "on" (on) and other such occurrences we find the use of the wide "e" used as "a" in specific pronunciation. This, according to Selishchev, is an articulated sound of Albanian speech specific to Albasan Region. According to Selishchev, this is not an isolated incident present only in the western part of Ohrid Region but there may be other places and other interpretations. It is understandable that the largest number of borrowed words in one or the other language have invaded the languages during the period when both languages were simultaneously spoken by the population.

Apart from the phonetics noted as borrowings at a morphologic level, namely in Macedonian toponyms which Selishchev mentions he found in Albania, there are also dual member names such as "Bele Mogile" in which the endings "-e (< -h)" are protected, derived from the soft noun change of the female gender. This kind of example where the "–e" ending in the female gender noun appears can be found in Debar Region in the northern and southwestern speech particularly in the village Zherovnitsa. The appearance in northern speech can be explained as a common shared trait between the Albanians and neighbouring Serbians. Its use in the dialect in Zherovnitsa is mainly due to contact made with speech in Prizran Region. As for its use in the southwest, as well as in the micro topo-onomastic material in Albania, its influence is disconnected. These dialects are "…undoubtedly influenced by the Albanian and Aromanian populations, in which in the multitude of adjectives and pronouns we find many examples of forms for the female and male gender. The morphed "e" is a symbol for the female gender. In a similar way it is possible that the morphism "-i" overpowers from its firm use which remained a symbol for the male gender" (according to Blazhe Koneski).

By Dr. Kosta Peev

Translated and edited by Risto Stefov

[e-mail]

January 10, 2010
www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/136016

Again, does this proves that you are Slavs?

[Hellenas]

Apr 17, 2011 3:30:48 GMT -5 @mel said:

you should read what you post

You too.

too much wishful thinking

Just facts.

lol at the Jews of wikipedia - I noticed some competent Greek members who did a good job defending Greek pov - but they must have been jews in disguise

Wikipedia serves the system and the system is Sionist and philoalbanian(see American Sionists in Servia and Cosovo etc).

again, you can repeat whatever makes you feel good but doesn't change facts - Arvanites are Arberor-Albanian, they speak tosk Albanian.

Arvanites are 100% Greek/Hellenes in race and blood, they have nothing to do with Albanians racially as well and they always were bilingual, they always spoke both Greek and Arvanite(not exactly "albanian"). Your panalbanian propaganda is ridiculous.

cool ancient stuff - but out of topic.

but I get it, you are going back thousands of years ago - making "mediterrean" hellenes go all the way to Thrace so they could go all the way back to north Albania - and the south - all this just to justify the Arvanites are of ancient Hellenic origin - this is what is called far fetching - again this is not the thread to discuss anthropology, open a seperate one!

Who told you that this thread is just for your propaganda? You will get answers here, you like it or you don't like it. The ancient Greek Thracians moved in Illyria and that's the reason for so many Hellenes(in blood) both in Malsia Jakovλs and Dukagin of modern Albania.

A moderator please delete all irrelevant discussion here, this is a thread about people of Albanian origin, if you want to contribute do it, if not please stay out of it, thank you!

Scream baby scream.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apr 19, 2011 3:20:48 GMT -5 @mel said:

look, you said it is a fact that Albanian government changed toponyms, when the article you posted says the Prime Minister proposed to change toponyms (knowing Albanian politics, I think this will remain a promise)

They have already change most of Slavic toponyms into Albanian.

Thanks for the tip - I didn't know we were all that powerful to dominate America, Zionist and the Wikipedia - maybe we should just let Wikipedia know cause they might have forgotten lately

Of course the Albanians are an instrument of the New World Order and they serve the Zionist government of America. You do not lead anything, they just use you as slaves, because you are nothing more than that, just slaves.

this is far from historical and anthropological truth. Movement of Arvanites into Greece are relatively well documented - you just have to read the sources I brought you - serious historians and scholars. If you go by the truth, you will see that Arvanites were Albanians who spoke only Albanian of that time when they settled into Greece. I have seen no source so far claiming they were bilingual.

Let's see what the Arvanites say for their selves:

OUR ORIGIN:

The Arvanites are descendants of Doric Greek tribes. Proponents of this view emphasize the similarities in culture between Arvanites and Dorians. The Arvanites were a people fierce, warlike and austere, with stock-breeders (characteristic Doric element) and the peasantry. The various factions are still a Doric form of social constitution. The Greek Arvanitika studies that have been made containing many Homeric words and the structure of language is simple and "heavy". It is very likely that this is a Doric language.

www.an-attiki.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=787&Itemid=103

Nothing about "albanians", you just try to pass Greeks for albanians. Whatever I said about anthropology is true and I proved it with anthropological evidence, of course the Arvanites always were bilingual, they even wrote with the Greek alphabet and they started as a Greek-Albanian population that later Hellenized racially.


Opening verses of a poem composed in Arvanitika, with Greek translation,
honoring the marriage between Alexandra and Archduke Paul of Russia; 1889.

Let's see that again until you get it:

Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks as the result of a process of assimilation, and do not consider themselves to belong to Albania or the Albanian nation. They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbëror (in their language); the communities in northern Greece also use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.

Arvanites in Greece have come to dissociate themselves much more strongly from the Albanians, stressing instead their national self-identification as Greeks. At the same time, it has been suggested that many Arvanites in earlier decades maintained an assimilatory stance, leading to a progressive loss of their traditional language and a shifting of the younger generation towards Greek.

In the decades following World War II and the Greek Civil War, many Arvanites came under pressure to abandon Arvanitika in favour of monolingualism in the national language, and especially the archaizing Katharevousa which remained the official variant of Greek until 1976.

While Arvanitika was commonly called Albanian in Greece until the 20th century, the wish of Arvanites to express their ethnic identification as Greeks has led to a stance of rejecting the identification of the language with Albanian as well.

Arvanites were regarded as ethnically distinct from the Greeks in the 19th century, while their participation in the Greek War of Independence and the Greek Civil War has led to increasing assimilation. The common Christian Orthodox religion they shared with the rest of the local population was one of the main reasons that led to their assimilation. Although sociological studies of Arvanite communities still used to note an identifiable sense of a special "ethnic" identity among Arvanites, the authors did not identify a sense of 'belonging to Albania or to the Albanian nation'.

Many Arvanites find the designation "Albanians" offensive as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks and not Albanians.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

So why you call them "albanians", why you insult them like that? They have nothing to do with you Turkalbanians neither with your moslem Allah, they are Greeks and Christian Orthodoxs.

You are claiming Arvanites to be hellenic in race because according to you they are mediterrean. So mediterrean=Hellene. By this, we can say that Bulgarians are nowadays more hellenic than Greece... also some Serbs are Mediterranean..and that Alpines of the Socrates type must not be Hellenes, the same thing for the Nordics or Greece (and dinarics, norics, armenoids) found in nowadays Greece since they are not mediterrean. Are they Greek or not? Since when are people classified based only on race? I think Hitler tried it but it did not work.

The Anthropologist Theodoros K. Pizziou claims that the Arvanites are Hellenic in race because they are Mediterraneans not me. He also says that the Arvanites have different cranio-facial morphology than the Albanians, in few words they don't look alike. The Arvanites look like the rest of Greeks/Hellenes. Of course the southern Bulgarians are racially Hellenes and according to Carleton S. Coon: they are comparable in this respect to the longer-headed Greeks. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-15.htm .Of course some Serbs are Hellenic in race and the Alpines of Hellas are an indigenous Epirotic population that Hellenized by the Mediterranean Hellenes. The few Nordics, Dinarics, Norics and Armenoids that can be found in Hellas are not original Hellenes racially, that's a fact, the Hellenes always identified their selves as Mediterraneans, see the ancient Hellenic paintings on pots and the statues of the Olympian Gods, all show Mediterraneans. People classified based only on race since Anthropology and Genetics exist. For the record, I am against Hitler, as he was a pangermanist and a very "black" personality.

So, the whole mediterrean basin must be Hellens, including Basques. And of course North Africa...but if we go that back in time, also Nordics are mediterrean, and older than "Hellene" mediterrean .. and finally all these mediterrean came from somewhere in asia or africa and is a mix...

Ancient Greeks/Hellenes said for their selves: The Hellenes live along the Mediterranean basin as frogs live around the lake. So yes, many are of Hellenic origin, at least partially are Hellenes, also the Basques found close genetically with the Greeks:


dienekes.110mb.com/articles/greekadna/

The Nordics indeed descend from Mediterraneans and so North Pondids, the Mediterranean is the older race on the planet, the most civilized, the most superior and it descend from the Aegean basic(from where it spread worldwide) according to the Paleoanthropologist Dr. Aris Poulianos.

I can't understand what is an ancient "greek thracian". it should be either Greek or Thracian - cause the hellenes only settled in coastal areas and there is not evidence to point out that a group of Thracian "Hellenes" moved to Illyria - but you are making all these moves into your mind to justify why there are Atlanto-Mediterreans in the north ...as if Hellenes were all Atlanto-Mediterrean..

First of all the Greek/Hellenes are not "indo-europeans" but indigenous south-east Europeans, so they never "settled" in this area, they always lived there. The ancient Thracians were of old Hellenic origin and extended in all over the Hellenic peninsula of Hemos/Balkans. The southern Bulgarians are of the same racial type like Atlanto-Mediterranean Greeks and Greek-Cretans(Carleton S. Coon, Dr Aris Poulianos). The Atlanto-Mediterranean Thracians according to the ancient Greek writers migrated in Illyria and the Hellenes perhaps were not all Atlanto-Meds but the most were and so Thracians.

I don't post propaganda but the truth and anyone can see that what we have posted here is the truth, also backed up by sources. You can't stand the truth but no one can help you. Greece has an Arvanite population, who have been mixing with Greeks due to their common religion - their rights must be respected - while they can be full blown Greeks and have nothing to do with Albania, they should be able to cultivate their language and cultural heritage. You can try all day but you cannot undo these facts.

What you post here is pure panalbanian propaganda against Hellenism and against the Arvanites who dislike you and hate you.Your sources are propagandistic and influenced by the New World Order and by treacherous anti-Hellenic leftism. I don't care who wrote all these nonsense but for their sources, and there are not any sources, just their theories. That's your "truth"...lol. You will never gain anything from the Arvanites, no schools no nothing, albanism to the Arvanites is already dead.

grow up

You are very young to me for sure, when I grew up you was just a baby or even better you was still in the belly of your mother and as I said... there is no escape from me, I will uncover you.
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Apr 21, 2011 11:00:46 GMT -5 @mel said:

Arvanites - Αρβανίτες Epilogue (Aristidh P. Kola)

Lol, I have already prove here that Arvanites have Hellenic blood and are part of the Hellenic race.

In few words...Arvanites vs Albanians=Different face/different race.





The Arvanites are Hellenes.

The Arvanites have nothing to do with Albanians, the Arvanites came from Arvanon or Arvana of centeral/southern modern Albania. This area always called New Epiros and inhabited by Hellenic populations. The Albanian state is a construction of the big powers of that time(1912) and never before in history existed any country or any people in the Balkans called "Abania" or "Albanians"(only in Caucasos there is a country called Albania). Even the name "Albania" cames from the word "Albani" which means CHEAT.

Said the Arvanite Dr. of Literature Petros Fourikes.

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Apr 20, 2011 5:10:54 GMT -5 @mel said:

No they didn't, the source you provided does not say so, I live in Albania and no such thing happened - so anyone can find out who lies me or you.

It has nothing to do with lie, perhaps you are right about the toponyms and they haven't change them yet but they had the will to do that so it's the same thing.

LOL - you seem to be enslaved to conspiracy theories - go ahead if it makes you feel good...but I don't see the point of sharing them with us at the Albanian forum.

First of all I am free and secondly someone must speak about you,your politics and your panalbanian propaganda, where you also are a victim. Else, why America helps Albania, Scopje and Turkey against Hellas? Sionists do that, you are just the puppets.

Yes, no one disputes Arvanites are a fierce people, warlike and austere - traits always attested to the Albanian race.

There is not any "albanian race", only the Ghegs are an Albanian race and the Albanians compared to Greeks always were cowards. When was the last time when you fought for Albania? And I don't mean the American bombs in Kosovo. I will tell you, the last time when Albanians fought was during WW2, when you fought at the side of the Italian fascists against Hellas and we smashed you as you were cowards.

Arvanitika, tosk Albanian contains many Homeric words- all these fall into the characteristics of the Albanian language. The Dorian origin of the Arvanites points to the place where the so called Dorians are thought to have stemmed from, a territory always inhabited by proto-Albanians so it can be said they come from the same territory in the very distant past. This origin some Arvanites attest to themselves - is trying to build a bridge between Albanians and Greeks (but so far in vain)

The territory of modern albania called Arvanon or Arvana(frrom where the Arvanites came) before the coming of the Illyrians from the Caucasos area, inhabited only by Hellenes not by proto-Albanians. The reason that the Dorians came down to southern Hellas is because the Illyrians pushed them from the upper Balkans to mainland Hellas.

I try nothing of the kind - Arvanites of course are of Albanian language. Of course Arvanites were NEVER bilingual - up until the 19 century, Arvanites communities and even personalities of Greek state of Arvanite origin could not speak a word in Greek. That is indeed a fact, if you know the meaning of facts.

The Arvanites always spoke Greek along with their own Arvanite language, which is a produce of Albanian and Homeric Greek. The facts? You are in ignorance, nowadays most of Arvanites have for their first language the Greek one and for second(when this still survives) the Arvanite, that is written with the Greek letters, not the latin. Arvanitika very soon will be a dead language in Greece.

sure they can identify themselves as Greeks - no problem - they live in this country and have done so much for it, no one can deny them this. But since, like your quote says, they call themselves Arberor, a first grader will know that they are Arberor- a medieval term for Albanian. They can dislike the term as long as they want, this can't undo the fact that what was called Arberor is now called Shqipetar.

And the Illyrians, your "proto-Albanians", where Hellenized, they were not Arberor neither Shqipetar...read the posts of Emperor Aadmin. All area from Crete to Danube was once Mediterranean, the Archaeologists found everywhere Mediterranean skeletons.

this phenomenon is simply a politically and ethnically motivated drive by the Greeks to assimilate Arvanites - a dissociation of Arvanites from Albanians did not exist prior to this time, it is an artificial and unnatural pressure exerted on them to this day.

We will assimilate them all.

yes we know pressure to forget mother language, a most unnatural thing to ask Arvanites to do - read Tsitsipis above

Anything albanian to the Arvanites will be exterminate.

this makes me sad - like when a victim worships the aggressor.

The aggressors in the Greek history were the Turkalbanians and their victims were the Arvanites who suffered a lot from them.

the quote speaks against everything what you say here but yet somehow you can't make the difference and keep repeating the same quotes (which btw are already in the first pages of this thread for anyone to see) what a waste of time...

You can band whatever you want but..."the authors did not identify a sense of 'belonging to Albania or to the Albanian nation'." So the Arvanites are not "albanians".

these exact sentences are so often repeated by Greeks..yet nothing logical in them

Yes I know...albanians have all the logic and we haven't any.

I insult Arvanites? If you an Arvanite and are insulted by me then you have the right to speak and me to respond otherwise I will not ask anyone permission for my opinions

The Arvanites: find the designation "Albanians" offensive, so according to them yes, you insult them. Stop calling them "albanians".

again, Albanians are mediterreans too - besides Arvanites are both mediterreans and alpine, traits common to south Albania now

South Albania is without doubt mixed with Greeks(in case you don't know that) as far as the Greek Epiros is mixed with albanians. The Arvanites are mostly Mediterraneans and then Alpines. Anyway, the Anthropologist Theodoros K. Pizziou says that the Arvanites and the Albanians have different cranio-facial morphology, thus they don't look alike.

I have never have read Coon saying mediterrean=hellenes. racialreality.110mb.com/subraces.html

Dr. Aris Poulianos(Paleoanthropologist & Anthropologist) says that the Aegean Mediterranean man moved from Hellas and Balkans in all over the planet, so according to this scientist Mediterraneans=Hellenes.

Open your eyes and read now, Carleton S. Coon :

A tall, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic type with dark hair and dark brown eyes, a straight nasal profile, and a tendency toward a lesser leptorrhiny than the total group. This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks[/u], while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs. It, or a similar type, also occurs with Dinarics in northern Italy and the Tyrol. In northern Albania it is commonest in Malsia Jakovλs and Dukagin.[/i]

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-13.htm

Atlanto-Mediterraneans=Hellenes or of Hellenic origin.

Anyway, all Mediterraneans(and even Nordics) came from the same source, so we are all racial brothers or cousins, same goes for all other sub-races, Armenoids-Dinarics-Norics, Alpines-Borrebys and so on.

one of the ways mediterrean race entered into Europe is thought to have been through nowadays territory of Greece and Italy, however, to say these mediterreans were "Hellens"

Not me, the scientists say so. The Aegean Mediterranean race according to Dr. Aris Poulianos originated in the Aegean basin.

first of all a Hellene is not a racial term, but more a cultural term. Secondly, an ethnically Greek of that time was not only a Mediterranean, but also a mix of all other races so I don't get it how can you call Serbs Hellenes, do you have evidence that Hellenes colonized nowadays territory of Serbia, and precisely those Greek colonizers were mediterrean in race?

Hellene is both a racial and cultural term. The Hellenes were never a mix of all other races as you said but pure Mediterranean Hellenes and Alpines, all other racial types among them always formed a minority(mostly assimilated elements). Many ancient Hellenic historians said that Hellenes migrated from Thrace in ancient Illyria(this includes modern Serbia). Most people from all this area of Ancient and modern Thrace(including southern Bulgaria) were and still are mostly Atlanto-Mediterraneans in race, and this race have connected to the Greeks, even Serbian Atlanto-Mediterraneans connected to the Greeks, read Carleton S. Coon:

This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks[/u], while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs.[/i]

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-13.htm

The origin of the Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Most historians conclude that the Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians. Little is known about these peoples, and they blended into one another in Thraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-Fine-0

Dardania (Ancient Greek: Δαρδανία; Latin: Dardania) was the region of the Dardani (Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι; Latin: Dardani). Located at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone, their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain. Their territory itself was not considered part of Illyria by Strabo. The term used for their territory was (Ancient Greek: Δαρδανική), while for other tribes had more unspecified terms, such as (Ancient Greek: Αυταριατών χώρα) for the Autariatae. Other than that, little to no data exists on the territory of the Dardanii prior to Roman conquest, especially on its southern extent.

The region was inhabited by Illyrians, Celts and Thracians. After Roman conquest of Illyria at 168 BC, Romans colonized and founded several cities in the region.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

sure sure, go ahead, looks interestingly familiar Greek mindset

Lol, most like Hellenization, ask the Arvanites...

if you think so, then you should tell them this, that their language, traditions, feelings as Greeks do not matter - they are not Greeks. I wonder if you have the guts to do it, I guess not

I said they are not original Hellenes racially, not culturally. Of course they are Greeks but not original in race, they already know that.

I don't think so - not all figures of ancient Greeks show mediterreans, the most beautiful of them, the statues of gods and heroes show nordics looks - but I don't care - this thread is not about anthropology.

The ignorance in all its magnificence...

Why you know nothing about, you better stop speaking about such matters...there is not even one "nordic" statue in Hellas or a pot showing "nordics", just some light haired Meds, all show Mediterraneans not nordics. Read that:

The difference between Mediterraneans and Nordics. Nordics are not the ancient Hellenes, neither Apollon.

"Another stab to the Nordicist doctrine are the actual sculptures of ancient Greece. When looking at classical sculpture one sees a very Mediterranean people. Straight or curly thick hair, low smooth foreheads, fleshy faces, round chins, a somewhat broad face, a large fleshy straight nose, full lips as well as almond shaped eyes are seen among the beautiful sculptures of the Greeks. These descriptions would never be taken to characterize someone of Germanic decent. Germanic or Nordic men are defined as having sharp angular features; thin straight noses, many ending in an upturned point, high cheek bones, thin lips, high mounded foreheads, fine straight blond hair, and eyes that are more round then almond in shape. Germanic men are seen as having sharp, hard faces, whereas the ancient Greeks have a much rounder, fuller, softer face. When looking at Greek sculpture one would never take its subjects to be Germanic, but instantly recognize them as Greek."

www.freewebs.com/carthia/racialcontroversy.htm

and when did Anthropology and especially genetics exist? Anyway, you can not determine the rights of a people based on race especially when you classify this race according to your interests

Here and some years. You can indeed determine the rights of a people based on race more easily than mixing culture, language or traditions, and this for the sake of truth.

or vice versa, these people lived in this habitat and are as much as autoctonous as Greeks, if not more (as we know historically Greece has been mixing for millenia) and there is no evidence to support any interaction of Greeks with Basques - this is as always wishful thinking

Many, not to say all, around the Mediterranean basin are of Hellenic origin, I will trust the Ancients not you. Hellas never mixed with anyone, that's your wishful thinking now, the two major sub-races in Hellas always were the Atlanto-Meds and the Alpines, all other sub-races always formed minorities in Hellas and about the Basques and Spaniards read that again as well:



dienekes.110mb.com/articles/greekadna/

sure dr. Poulianos and his work must have made some Greeks sleep well at night- again no-one in their right mind can equal mediterreans=hellenes, actually a north African or west Asian or south European have more rights to be called mediterreans whatever this is worth

Dr. Aris Poulianos put it right: The Aegean Mediterranean man is the forefather of all Mediterraneans and again I will trust him not you.

wishful thinking - not supported of course and I don't want to continue this debate any longer , waste of time (on one hand you say the mediterreans that arrived in Europe via sea are "Hellenes" and spread mediterrean race across south Europe on the other you say Hellenes did not settle anywhere, they always lived there lol)

First of all the Greek/Hellenes are not "indo-europeans" but indigenous south-east Europeans, so they never "settled" in this area, they always lived there.

THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS:

THE ORIGINS OF THE CRETANS AND AEGEANS

The basic conclusion (A. Poulianos 1971,1999) is that the contemporary population of Crete (based on a sample of 3.000 individuals) and the Aegean sea as a whole including the hinterland of Thrace and Asia Minor remained unaltered at least since the Minoan era and belongs to the aegean indigenous anthropological type. The migrations, which occurred during several historical periods, resulted in some light variations, but did not change the morphology of the original type. The influences do not exceed more than 1-3 % and this homogeneity betrays once again that the dwellers of the Aegean basin in general are locally born, at least since the Mesolithic epoch, that is 15.000 years BP (before present).

www.aee.gr/english/4greeks_origin/greeks_origin.html

Professor Colin Renfrew agree with this theory.

I also don't want to continue this debate any longer as I have better things to do than educating irrelevant albanians, in an albanian forum which indeed is a waste of time, over here you find just panalbanian and anti-Greek propaganda.

I said that the Aegean Mediterranean race was indigenous and came from the Aegean region(according to Dr. Aris poulianos), they moved from here in all over the planet and especially in the Mediterranean area and migrated everywhere. That is what I said. If you want to read his work learn Greek and buy his books.

is just shows up to where Greek colonies exited, southern Bulgarians not Thrace (hellenization does not mean changing of ethnic composition but just adopting greek letters and conducting commerce with Greeks)

"Ethnic" nonsense and ignorance, the Thracians were anthropologically Atlanto-Med Hellenes according both to Carleton S. Coon and Dr. Aris Poulianos. You know nothing about.

Atlanto-Mediterrean Thracians? did ancient writers know of the division of races at that time? we know thracians and Illyrians probably shared common origin and these people, the thracians, were nothing mediterrean as far as it can be guessed

Of course the Thracians were by the very antiquity Atlanto-Mediterraneans and they didn't share any common origin with the Illyrians who were for the most part Dinarics.

Carleton S. Coon:

East of the Illyrians and north of the Macedonians lived, in classical times, the Thracians.

Bulgaria was once Thracian country;

The presence of a strongly entrenched Atlanto-Mediterranean population in all of the lowland Balkans south and east of the Iron Gate is becoming increasingly evident.

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-15.htm

Southern Bulgarians=Thracians, are similar anthropologically to Atlanto-Mediterranean Greeks and Atlanto-Mediterranean Cretan Greeks and other islanders, so yes, Greeks and northern Thracians always were identical anthropologically. Carleton S. Coon connected them to the Greeks as well as Dr. Aris Poulianos. No Anthropologist ever connected them to the "Illyrians".

wrong, not only the Hellenes were a mix since that time, but what evidence is there of Thracians shows they were not at all mediterrean

What "mix" are you talking about, all Anthropologists support that most of Hellenes always were Atlanto-Meds and Alpines, they never where a mix of all types of people. Most of Thracians also were for the most part Atlanto-Meds, read Carleton S. Coon.

if you suffer so much, don't post here, thanks

Did you said anything of wishful thinking, that's your suffering lol.

Anyone can judge here who writes nonsense nonstop and who provides serious sources for whatever is written here - if you have problem with "sources" per se, that is your personal problem. Besides, I am trying to be respectful here but you should know I don't write to please you or anyone else here so spare us your drama and conspiracy theories

I agree with you over here, anyone can judge who writes nonsense and propaganda and who provides serious sources of real Scientists and not unknown non-scientific writers who put down their own lies without providing any of their "sources".

lol , what a good job you are doing ...

Lol, yes I do.

P.S. The sure thing is that Albanians like you and Hellenic patriots like me will never agree.

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Apr 22, 2011 6:44:49 GMT -5 @mel said:

we said different things and one of us had to lie

That which I care is that I didn't lie, I just thought they had already changed them.

I am free too, as are all Albanians whom you called slaves of sionism, America and wikipedia...

Of course Albanians are slaves of American Sionists, that's why they helped you with Serbians, everybody knows that as well. You are the little puppets of Sionism.

if there is no Albanian race than surely there is no Hellenic race

The "Albanian" race are the Ghegs, the Hellenic race are the Mediterraneans and the cream de la cream of Hellenes are the Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

Those who have met, known and know Albanians think the contrary, usually the coward one is the Greek, the brave one always the Albanian.

Always the Albanians are and were the brave in the Balkans, that's why they call up the Americans Sionists to fight against the Serbs, because those cowards are so "brave".Lol, you cannot compare Greeks to Albanians, we have take part to all wars while albanians didn't, you just always ran behind the strong ones...Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans, Fascists, Nazies, Sionists...how "brave" you are indeed.

Homage to the Greek resistance

Everyone can recall the sentiments of admiration which the heroic defense of Greece, first against the Italians and then against the German invader, aroused throughout the civilised world.

In a speech made at the Reichstag in 1941, Hitler expressed his admiration for the Greek resistance, saying of the campaign: "Historical justice obliges me to state that of the enemies who took up positions against us, the Greek soldier particularly fought with the highest courage. He capitulated only when further resistance had become impossible and useless." The Führer also ordered the release and repatriation of all Greek prisoners of war, as soon as they had been disarmed, "because of their gallant bearing." According to Hitler's Chief of Staff, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, the Führer "wanted to give the Greeks an honorable settlement in recognition of their brave struggle, and of their blamelessness for this war: after all the Italians had started it." Inspired by the Greek resistance during the Italian and German invasions, Churchill said, "Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks".In response to a letter from George VI dated 3 December 1940, American President Franklin D. Roosevelt stated that "all free peoples are deeply impressed by the courage and steadfastness of the Greek nation", and in a letter towards the Greek ambassador dated 29 October 1942, he wrote that "Greece has set the example which every one of us must follow until the despoilers of freedom everywhere have been brought to their just doom."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece

I will trust all those, not you. We all know very well who we are and who you are.

this is childish talk even though you called me a baby. You didn't smash us cause we did not fight you, simple (if we had then we could talk about who is coward who is brave )

Cham Albanians under the orders of Italian Fascists and German Nazies:



One picture, one thousand words...cowards who always run
behind the strong ones.

that territory where Dorians sprang from (to invade other "Greeks") was inhabited by a people or coalition of people, speaking probably a related language that preceded Hellenism and thus can be considered the originator of Hellens (pelasgi -illyrian-thracian etc) and proto-Albanian (given the overlapping, partly, of territories, in the Illyrian part, and the language). Below are just two extracts, since I do not want to start a copy pasting war



books.google.com/books?id=-HA9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57&dq=Analytical,+synoptical+and+elementary+tables,+dorians&hl=en&ei=s1SxTZCXD8PHswam14zfCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6wEwAQ#v=snippet&q=albanian%20language&f=false

The Dorians didn't "invade other Greeks", they just returned back to their homeland, Hellas, from the north, as they had extended to northern Balkans till Danube river. They spoke Hellenic not "albanian" and both Pelasians and Thracians were racially Hellenes not "albanians"(besides there is not such thing as "ancient Albanians"). Illyrians back then also were the forefathers of the Serbians(excluding the Slavs), so you have no monopoly on Illyrians.

The Albanian and the Greek language, whatever their common origin have separated a long time ago, hence they are dinstic and separate branches in the indoeuropean language family tree.

The theory of the "indo-europeans" has already fall.

A people will only have one language which it can call the mother language, which one it is? All historians and researchers unanimously agree, the Arvanites spoke Albanian, later one because they lived in Greece they became bilingual (with still the Arvanite -Albanian language the mother language and the Greek one the cultivated language). so whatever common origin of homeric Greek and Albanian, this is attributed to the Albanian language, which is the mother language for the Arvanites.

I just said that the Greek Arvanites and not Albanians, according even to them, spoke a kind of Illyrian language mixed with Hellenic Homeric words, not any "clear albanian" language and they also spoke Greek as well, they were bilingual.

after assimilation yes, but I said not very long ago, in the beginning of the 19 century there were arvanite communities who could not speak Greek, especially those not interacting regularly with Greeks. If Arvanite language will be dead, this is up to the speakers, not you (it is so cruel to wish death upon a language just because it disrupts your idealistic views of a "pure" Greece...)

Again with "ethnicities" and minorities? Greece is 95% pure, the Arvanites were albanized Hellenic & Illyrian populations and in the future we will kill anything non-Greek, believe me.

these are your views, not necessarily of those who are not into Hellenic-Mediterrean craziness mode

How many times I must repeat that what I say is not mine, I have read this to the "Origin of the Hellenes" written by the Ethnologist Demetrios P. Demopoulos.

I don't think so, but we will see depends on Arvanites - I said they are hard to break

They have already assimilated and this will continue until they will reach the 100% of Hellenization.

yes yes sure, I said the aggressor on the Arvanite language are the Greeks, the Arvanites are the victims

They like it, they love assimilation and Hellenization, they hate Turkalbanians and the aggressors both of Hellenism and of Arvanites always were the Turkalbanians as I said. And don't forget, the Greeks during the Greek Revolution fought mostly against Tuklbanians and Turko-Egyptians than Turks, as they were their mercenaries.

This does not depend on me - language is classified by scientists not me, a people's ethnicity is classified by scientists not me - in no way is an insult to call people by their own names (it could only be an insult to people who dream with eyes wide open but that is their personal problem)

There is not any "albanian ethnicity" in Hellas, the Arvanites belong according to the Scientists to the Hellenic Mediterranean race and their ethnicity nowadays is the Hellenic not the albanian. Their language, the Arvanite is Greko-Illyrian(even the Sertbs can claim them, as Serbs also are descendants of Illyrians) and they also have the Hellenic language. Their personal problem is only you and your panalbanism.

I don't need to rely on Pizziou to see where Arvanites come from, what language they speak and the similar racial traits they have with the people of their origin, tosk Albanians

the Arvanites remind nothing of Tosk albanians and they only remind Hellenes(Anthropologist Theodoros K. Pizziou), so you claim Greek people for Albanians, that's just panalbanian propaganda. The Arvanites are not Tosks, they are Hellenes, even Carleton S. Coon said that: "The Tosks have different craniofacial morphology than Greeks" and the Arvanites are Greeks who dislike and hate albanians, now, you have the problem not we.

so what, he is not the only one to write on this issue

You asked for Scientists and I sent them to you. Dr. Aris Poulianos perhaps is not the only one who writes on this issue but he is the only one who proves everything with archaeological foundings(skeletons).

It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks - means just that: the atlanto-mediterrean race can be found out among the races determined in Greece (while it is common in Bulgaria) - this in no way means mediterrean=hellene.

Atlanto-Mediterraneans may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks. Means: Atlanto-Mediterraneans are Hellenes or of Hellenic origin.

sure, but Coon nowhere states Mediterraneans equals Hellens, so whenever a Mediterraneans shows up we can say he is a Hellene.

Dr. Aris Poulianos and the Ethnologist Demetrios P. Demopoulos said that not Carleton S. Coon.

I have not read what Aris has written, but I do not think he is more popular or professional than Coon.

He have the skeletal foundings and he have work for years on Greeks, C.S.Coon didn't have them.

we just have to read the history so diligently written by ancient Greek writers to see if there were mixes or not.

Of course, as there are not any albanian or Illyrian writers, just Hellenes, all other Balkanians were uncivilized and they didn't have any writers...any way, again with the ethnicities? The Hellenes never composed by many ethnicities, they were just Hellenes:

Isocrates in Panegyric 23-5.

"For we did not win the country we dwell in by expelling others from it, or by seizing it when uninhabited, nor are we a mixed race collected together from many nations, but so noble and genuine is our descent, that we have continued for all time in possession of the land from which we sprang, being children of our native soil, and able to address our city by the same titles that we give to our nearest relations, for we alone of all the Hellenes have the right to call our city at once nurse and fatherland and mother."

Anyway, we don't need history writers to tell us if the Hellenes were mixed or not, we need Archaeologists and Anthropologists, and those have already come in conclusion=They were not mixed with many racial types, most were Meds(most of Greece) and Alpines(north-western Greece).

Only the southern coastal areas of Bulgaria (corresponding to same territory of Thrace colonized by Hellenes) are mediterrean. Descriptions of Thracians I have seen say they were people of "ruddy complexion and blue eyes" so does this does not fit into mediterrean race

Wrong, a Mediterranean can have from very dark complexion to very light(colors have nothing to do with race as well), the northern Atlanto-Meds called also Pondics by Russian Anthrtopologists are of light complexion but they originate from the Mediterranean area and from the Mediterranean race, no one ever proved anthropologically that the ancient Thracians were light haired and light eyed, see the description of the descendants of the ancient Thracians:



The pigmentation of the Bulgars, while lighter than that of the Greeks, is predominantly dark.

The presence of a strongly entrenched Atlanto-Mediterranean population in all of the lowland Balkans south and east of the Iron Gate is becoming increasingly evident. In Bulgaria it is geographically most concentrated along the southern ethnic periphery, and among Bulgarian colonies abroad, as in the Crimea.

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-15.htm

It is good to see that you use anti-Greek and anti-Mediterranean Nordicist sites to support your ideas, by doing something like that you expose your self and everybody can understand what kind of propagandist you are. The red haired woman you posted is probably dyed and her original hair color is dark as well, many woman use to do that even nowadays, especially in Greece and Italy.

I would rather be an ignorant than a racist loony freak

Thanks a lot for your good words...first of all I'm not a "racists", I have some dark-skinned Greek friends and I don't believe that whites must enslave Africans or other races. The owner of this forum Emperor Aadmin always put first Anthropology and Genetics and then history to prove his claims, so if you don't like that and you suffer so much from this you can stop posting here. At first I called you an ignorant, now I will call you an illiterate person(at least on themes concerning Anthropology).

so there are no sculptures of Greek heroes with blonde, fair, red hair..achilles, hellene...as I said I do not care

There are no colors to the sculptures, just one red haired and RED EYED, the pots usually show dark haired and dark eyed people with the exception of some few with light hairs. Blonde doesn't mean "nordic", there are blond haired Mediterraneans as well, see Russia etc.

No rights of people are determined in race, if you want to experience that, start with Greeks

We spoke here of Arvanites and since they are not albanians in blood but Greeks they can have the rights and the obligations that every other Greek has.

if anyone is irelevant is you, coming here into a thread about Albanian communities outside of Albania and claiming Arvanite should have no education in their mother language cause they are antlanto-mediterreans which in some irelevant way you equal with greeks. So, educate yourself first so that next time you can actually contribute to a debate in a forum not disrupt and pollute it. If the truth looks like pan-Albanian and anti-Greek to you that is nobodies problem, but yours, so deal with it - no one writes here to suit your personal views and likes

You are integrally irrelevant and illiterate on thames concerning Anthropology(as you have already admit it), while I have read many books and studies on such themes and I am more educated compared to you. As I said, they are not Greeks according to me but according to the Anthropologists Carleton S. Coon, Theodoros K. Pizziou and Dr. Aris Poulianos, so for another one time you are wrong as well. Common sense says that they are Greeks, 'cause the Mediterraneans in Albania are a small minority while they are the majority in Greece and they came from Greece. Even if those Mediterraneans of Albania came from Italy, Bulgaria or Turkey they are of Greek origin as well, they have connected to us from Anthropologists and Geneticists, you will never steal our race Albanians. The Arvanites are Greeks and they will never have any "albanian education", they never had and they will never have any, deal with that because that's reality. I pollute this forum? Take your Albanians and wash them well, in clear water, as they are the dirtiness of the planet...when Greeks had baths you were still on the trees...and you dare to speak about pollution? ...You want and schools in Greece...you will have no albanian education for Arvanites in Greece no nothing. And this forum is not yours, go to your own albanian forums if you want 'cause here you will listen the truth and you will face reality, either you like it or not.

not according to historians

Yes according to Anthropologists.

can you get that Coon is speaking about southern Bulgarians - which does not equal the whole ancient Thrace- but which corresponds with the colonized areas along the coast?
I think it is a waste of time to discuss any longer

Of course he speaks of southern Bulgaria, did I said the contrary? The ancient Thracians were a Mediterranean nation.

He also added for all of Bulgaria that:

The Bulgarians are a composite people, with the following racial elements easily discernible:

(a) a medium to tall-statured Atlanto-Mediterranean;

(b) a partially blond Neo-Danubian, of typical snub-nosed form;

Of these varied elements, the first two are the most important, and the first more than the second.

carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-15.htm

To discuss any longer with an irrelevant person like you is indeed a waste of time as you are just blind & prejudicate, we will never agree in anything.

the sources I provided relate to the topic, that is about Arvanites not Anthropoligists cause this is not the aim of the thread. To call all of them non-scientific writers you should be more qualified than them, are you...

Why, are you? Be sure you are not. I spoke of your "sources" which written by unknown people who provided no sources of their "sources", so they prove nothing. I from the other hand provided serious Scientists who provided proves and sources of their sources and especially show their sκeletical fιndings.

Not just me but a lot of people would have hard time to agree to your pan-Hellenistic propaganda as well as racist views on people and their rights

First, the Arvanites do not want your albanian "rights", you sound like dictators to them, they don't want you and they don't like you(you don't even listen to them, you just want to use them so to have claims in Greece). Second, there is not any "pan-Hellenistic propaganda" as what I say comes from serious Scientists and I never said that I want Greece to conquer albania, as you did with northern Greek Epiros, and your dreams of conquering southern Greek Epiros, you are the propagators here not me. And third, I do not have any "racists views", I just use Anthropology, as the owner of this forum do. This forum use Anthropology and Genetics, deal with that. If you don't like that you can take your "things" and get lost from here for ever...

[odel]

Hellenes are Nordic Arvanites mixed with Arabs.

[Hellenas]

I will answer only that, Albanians go find your future in Nazism and leave Greece, Arvanites and the Greek patriots alone.

Thanks Greek1234.

[homelandsecurity]

Kalimera Ellas - from the highest point of Acropolis built on Pelasgian foundations. Greek sociologist and turkish-greek relations expert, Prof. Sarris teaches Greece that Arabatzioglou and Kuyumtzioglou is 100% Hellenic!!! Evet???!!!

[rex362]

"Arvanites, myths and reality"

Spyros Kaselimi






Spiros Kaselimis is Major ret. το 1943, Born in Asopos Thebes (Chrempotsari) in 1943, where he finished primary school. Το 1961 In 1961 he graduated from high school arenas A Chalcis. (1965). He attended the Military Academy from 1961 until 1965 and was named Second Lieutenant Cavalry - Armor (1965) He served as: Pilot airplanes and helicopters, flight instructor at the School of Aviation Army units and assemblies, at last - Chief of Staff Major Units and Army General Staff. He graduated from High School War of the High School of National Defense. He is married and has one daughter.




exeisminima.gr/blog/2011/12/arvanites-vivlio-asopia/

[Kanaris]

Born 1943... wtf.... he's an albanian with a greek name.

[rex362]

I dont know what he is .....

just reference for Hellenas & Greek123456 to read a book maybe

[darkernative]

Arvanites were obviously albanian, why else would they speak albanian in the middle of greece for thousands of years? If they were greek, they would simply be speaking greek, not arvanitika...

Hellanas let me simply it... The are that is now albania and greece were once inhabited by pelasgians... So when hordes of slavs, vlachs and so called greeks came thundering down to the balkans, they purged most of the original people, the pelasgians. However, albanians and the arvanites in athens, morea, attica and the islands resisted and lived there for thousands of years. Arvanites are the remaining southern pelasgians, the ones you failed to subdue. Of course there will be a racial similarity between the arvanites and the greek (even though its hardly noticeable). When the invaders ("hellenes") came, they of course interacted with the pelasgians a little bit. But the arvanites are the lost piece of the puzzle of the pelasgians. They are the bridge we have with pelasgians. Us and pelasgians share the same language, same costumes, same culture. You worked as hard as you could to assimilate the arvanites but you failed for all these years. Now there is a arvanite revival coming soon... Stop spreading your propaganda saying: "arvanites are offended with the term greek"... They are not, I have met arvanites who know they are albanians. I have an arvanite friend whose family is from Hydra and Athens and she speaks fluent arvanitika and says that first and foremost she is arvanite.

[Hellenas]

The Arvanites were albanized Greeks with a small admixture of Tosk. Arvanites came from the Greek lands of Arvana in albanized Greek North Epiros. Most of Arvanites after the Greek revolution went in Calabria & Sicily along with Greek Maniates, so not much Arvanites remained in Greece. Also there is a misunderstanding with the Arvanites, many Greeks during the Turkish occupation "played" the Arvanites so to avoid the persecution of the Turks(the masters of the Turkalbans), so you have Greeks speaking "Arvanite" and dressing like Arvanites even if they were 100% Greeks. Many Greek Peloponnesians also spoke Arvanite so to speak with the Arvanites and some Athenian traditional garments(like the white shirt) confused with the Arvanite shirts by non-Greek travelers(that's why they said that no Greeks remained in Athens). The Arvanites found identical racially to southern Greeks, they are different racially from Albanians and belong mainly to the southern Greek Mediterranean racial type, something which proves that they were/are 100% Greeks racially as well.

Arvanites were obviously albanian, why else would they speak albanian in the middle of greece for thousands of years? If they were greek, they would simply be speaking greek, not arvanitika...

The spoke mostly Greek, as they had to speak with their Greek brothers not with Turkalbans, but they also spoke Arvanite as they had to speak also with other Arvanites. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THEY WERE BILINGUALS AND SPOKE BOTH ARVANITE AND GREEK AS WELL.

The are that is now albania and greece were once inhabited by pelasgians... So when hordes of slavs, vlachs and so called greeks came thundering down to the balkans, they purged most of the original people, the pelasgians.

When the invaders ("hellenes") came, they of course interacted with the pelasgians a little bit.

These are all non-historical nonsense. The ancient Greek writers never said that the Hellenes "invaded" and started killing "Pelasgians" in Hellas. They said that the Pelasgians were the ancestors of the Hellenes and named their come back as "the return of Heracledes"(the return of the sons of Heracles back in their homeland).

Albanians have nothing to do with Pelasgians, the Pelasgians were Greeks. Stop stealing our history you offsprings of BARBARIANS.

Stop spreading your propaganda.

That's the Albanian profession. You spread lies and non-historical nonsense as well.

[rex362]

.....






how you like Hellenas ?




Pure Arberor of Italy meet Arvanitis of Grece

Father Antonio Bellusci with Arvanitis from Greece come visit there
brethren in Itally after 600 years

Attachments:

[darkernative]

Ok, firstly, in order to fully albanize a population, a huge amount of albanians were needed and such a population could not be limited to Attica and Athesn along with the islands. Arvanites, until 1821, had nothing to do with greeks and were as albanian as a kosovar. If they were the newcomers, they would blend in with the original population because they were severely outnumbered. But no, they were not assimilated because they were the original dwellers and they didn't let the greek into their ranks, at least the surviving arvanites didn't.

Greek are indeed invaders, and just as you said, the return of the heralledea is an invasion. The Dorian Invasion is the coming of these new "hellenes" to the pelasgian lands. These dorians subdued the pelasgians on a large scale but as I said before, albanians and arvanites survived this initial invasion. Cut from their southern brethren, northern pelasgians split from the southern pelasgians, becoming the illyrians. While the southern pelasgians remained more or less the same, eventually becoming arvanites.

For your information, most arvanites did not know greek, there are numerous occasions during 1821 that Arvanite generals and officers not being able to communicate with greeks due to language difference. Arvanites (most of them) spoke only arvanitika and the few who were bilingual preferred to speak arvanitika to one another.

Saying that the reason people thought Athens was only inhabited by Arvanites was becuse greek dressed in the arvanite fashion is nonsense. There were indeed only Arvanites in Athens, when King Otto first came to Athens, he was surprised that there were no one who spoke greek... Why else do you think Athens was made the Capital? There were many, many greek populated cities also suitable for that position but the revolutionary arvanite elite (later disposed by the cunning greeks) chose a 100% arvanite inhabited city as the capital of the new ARVANITE/ORTHODOX state.

[Kanaris]

Of course there were no Greeks in Athens... the ottomans transplanted so many albanians in mainland greece it was impossilble even to meet a greek.... You have no clue what your're talking about Dark Native. Read some books and come back to us..

[darkernative]

I read a lot of book about this subject... Mike if you don't agree with my points, point out the ones you don't agree with so I can try to explain it, after all that's why we are all here... Learning more about each other...

[missanthropology58]

The Arvanites were albanized Greeks with a small admixture of Tosk.

Agreed.

[darkernative]

Agreed by who?

Almost all respectable unbiased historians agree that arvanites were/are albanian.

[missanthropology58]

Jan 7, 2012 15:25:14 GMT -5 @darkernative said:

Agreed by who?

Almost all respectable unbiased historians agree that arvanites were/are albanian.

Who were Tosks who were partly Greek, Ghegs aren't Pontid they look more like Eastern Europeans.

[atdhetar]

w.
h.
o.
r.
e.

[missanthropology58]

Jan 7, 2012 15:39:30 GMT -5 atdhetar said:

w.
h.
o.
r.
e.

Is that what you see when you look in the mirror?