Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 10, 2011 4:42:58 GMT -5
The problem with Greece is pseudo intellectual commies like you Pyrros, that complain all day but lack the substance to do anything.. always waiting for the next guy to do the job. Are you implying that i am unemployed or communist? I am neither of those. (AAMOF i am usually this "next guy" in this stupid society of lazy useless albanians )
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Post by rusebg on Jun 10, 2011 13:29:36 GMT -5
Not really, my friend. Thracians had their own gods, didn't speak Greek at all, didn't use the Greek alphabet and never had the Greek traditions. Actually, it is quite debatable who stole the ancient gods from who. Please, stop behaving like no other people existed except Greeks. Kanaris, your posts sort of worry me. Do they mean the BBQ is out of question?
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 10, 2011 20:50:46 GMT -5
Which post worries you .? The BBQ is still on!
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Post by terroreign on Jun 10, 2011 21:21:40 GMT -5
i say get out of the euro union as soon as you can! make alliances with China and the emerging markets (Russia, Brazil, India, China). the US is a dying buffalo, and the EU a fractured bird's nest
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2011 2:42:51 GMT -5
Not really, my friend. Thracians had their own gods, didn't speak Greek at all, didn't use the Greek alphabet and never had the Greek traditions. Actually, it is quite debatable who stole the ancient gods from who. Please, stop behaving like no other people existed except Greeks. Kanaris, your posts sort of worry me. Do they mean the BBQ is out of question? true... many greek gods are taken from the thracians, even a whole religion - orphism. the thracian traditions were in vast contrast with the greek ones and thanks to this are described. the greeks never accepted the thracians as their kin.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2011 2:56:55 GMT -5
Thracians in Herodotus ‘Popular’ Identities – The Ancient Thracians Herodotus’s account of the Thracian tribes sheds a lot of light onto the concept of Greek ethnocentricity and love of the fantastic. The only customs of the Thracian tribes that are described are the ones that are according to Herodotus “The most striking.” The most striking of the Thracian customs can be taken as the ones most opposite to the Greek customs. For instance the Thracians apparent lack of respect for the agricultural labourer could not be further from the Athenian respect for an honest farmer working hard for a living. Examples of the Hellenistic love for the farmer class can be seen both in Aristophanes’s Peace , where the hero is a simple farmer. But to a greater extent in Menander’s comedy Old Cantankerous where the young hero must win the respect of a grumpy father by working the land as an honest farmer . By pointing out the starkest of contrasts in the Thracian peoples and omitting the Similarities Herodotus is perpetuating the ethnocentric values of the Hellenistic people. One can imagine the laughter or disgust from the audience of Herodotus as he recited it, and the way Herodotus has made sure these contrasts are given particular attention makes it clear that it was his intention to play upon the Greek’s cultural Apparatchik. However, he does not outright accuse the Thracians of Barbarism nor does he do this for any race he describes. Herodotus manages to avoid looking upon the foreigners as inferior to the Greeks; indeed he manages to sneakily perpetuate this radical philosophy of equality right through his work . Herodotus’s personal description shows the Thracians as humans just like Greeks, with the same fears and aspirations but a different set of cultural practices. But this is not to say that he does not play on the predictable nature of the Greek ethnic identity. He manages to work in an account of a foreign people’s customs whilst at the same time allowing his audience to formulate exactly the ethnocentric opinions one expects from a Classical civilisation. This is not in fact an isolated circumstance of the Hellenistic superiority complex; the Greeks had long made jokes of their foreign neighbours. Indeed there was a very clear distinction between Greeks and non – Greeks through the naming of all foreigners as “Barbaroi.” Poking fun at the apparent gibberish coming from non-Greek languages originally created this derogatory term. However Herodotus merely states the practices of the Thracians, not needing to actually compare them to the Hellenistic customs, as his intended Greek audience would already have made the links and comparisons. He is in a stark contrast to the comedic style of Aristophanes who goes out of his way to portray foreigners as utterly inferior to the Greek way of life. For instance the Persian ambassador in The Acharnians is a figure of ridicule onstage in his clumsy effeminate robes and strange accent. Attic pottery also depicts foreigners such as the Persians in a ridiculous manner. The Eurymedon Oniochoe depicts a foreigner, most likely Persian judging by the bow case slung at the waist and the Median cap, bending over frightened with a muscular Greek advancing on him holding his Phallus. This kind of repeated racial superiority is commonplace in the Greek arts and culture. However Herodotus branches away from this and in the course of his books manages to portray the customs of other cultures as fairly as possible but still manages to keep the focus on the fantastic and wild elements of the “Barbarian” world to satisfy his audience. In comparison to the typical Greek attitude towards foreigners, Herodotus takes an incredibly enlightened view of acceptance of different cultures. Herodotus also takes a bold new step in Greek thinking and actually compares the similarities between “barbarians” and Greeks . Herodotus notes the strict policy of watchfulness over the wives of the Thracians, which is rather similar to the Athenians but he does not make a large point out of this small similarity as the Greeks expected all men to watch their wives closely. However again we must look at this passage in relation to the ethnocentric views held by some of the other artists in Greece. This ideal of attempted equality shows beyond compare that Herodotus is not going down the ethnocentric path that the usual Hellenistic Philosophy dictates and it is quite possible that growing up in the multicultural Halicarnassus rather than the uniquely Hellenistic city states of mainland Greece highly affected his views on race . The peculiar Frankness of the way Herodotus leisurely makes the statement that a united Thrace would be the most powerful nation on earth is reminiscent of other “facts” which Herodotus claimed to be true. Such as the Gold mining ants of India. Herodotus’s own particular style of taking what could quite easily be a myth and then stating it in such a matter of fact way as to cause the reader to actually consider its truth. Of course this is done to play on the wild fantasies of the foreign Barbarians living in a completely opposite way to the Greeks. But it is characteristic of Herodotus to be so Frank with conjecture, especially in this case as India that is practically unknown is brought into the question and hailed as the most prolific nation on earth. The idea that we are to instantly accept the Indians as a numerous race merely because Herodotus tells us to is another facet of his writing style; we are rarely given sources or reasons for his arguments. Another Facet of Herodotus’s particular brand of writing is that he rarely ever gives a direct personal opinion. “The only Deities they Worship are Dionysus, Ares and Artemis” Here he implies a lack of devotion to the more cultured and civilised members of the Greek pantheon such as Apollo or Zeus, but he does not explicitly accuse the Thracians for Barbarism in their worship. It is left up to the reader to note that the God’s the Thracians pay particular attention to are orientated towards lust, war, hunting and excess of passion. For the most part this passage about the Thracians can be used as a cultural mirror to learn more about Greek attitudes in the time of Herodotus. For instance the branding of a man in Thrace is considered a noble mark. However in Hellenistic society branding a man had the possessive connotations of slavery or shame. For instance the Great King Xerxes branded the Thebans who surrendered at Thermopylae so that they may retain their shame for as long as they live. The point of Herodotus only remarking on the most striking Thracian customs is that he is remarking on the ones that contradict the Hellenistic cultural customs the most. So by looking at what the Thracians practice according to Herodotus’s striking customs and applying the near opposite we can build up a good image of the Hellenistic culture. However after the Striking customs paragraph Herodotus moves on to the similarities in religion and funeral rites. The Hellenistic rites of funeral games had run right back to Homer’s Illiad and the mention of the Thracian games in such a brief way tells us that the Greeks were quite familiar with the concept. Although it is worthwhile to notice that Herodotus, stating the best prizes go to winners of combat, exaggerates the warlike attributes of the Thracians based games. Herodotus exemplifies a new way of thinking in his treatment of foreign cultures. With the Thracians he seeks to find a common bond of religion, and is quick to point out the strengths of these scattered people. However he is still ready to play on the Hellenistic attitudes of superiority by feeding the Greek audience fantastical tales about human sacrifice at a man’s funeral or female children being allowed sexual intercourse with many men. His own particular style of impartial cultural observance is punctuated by the odd fantastical tale of excitement such as the long lived Ethiopians, the madness of King Cambyses or the hugely populated and threateningly powerful Thracian tribes. Lastly by analysing the specific ways in which Herodotus picks out certain customs and is brief with the others we can see more clearly what the Greeks found completely Alien and what similarities they shared with their neighbouring cultures. Bibliography Herodotus, The Histories, translated by G. C. Macaulay, Barnes and Noble Classics, 1998 Aristophanes, Peace, classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/peace.html , Menander, Old Cantankerous, faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/cl103a/dyskolos.html , Aubrey de Selincourt, The World of Herodotus, Secker and Warburg, 1962 Aristophanes, Acharnians, classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/acharnians.html , Rosalind Thomas, Ancient Perceptions Of Greek Ethnicity, Harvard university Press, 2001 www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/salamis.htm www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90437
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 11, 2011 3:32:12 GMT -5
The Thracians had their own Thracian identity: Particular language and particular religious traditions were decisive factors for the preservation of ethnic identity in an alien milieu and in the melting pot, as was for non-Latin and Non-Greek ethnic identities the civilisation of the Roman Empire (Mitchell - Greatrex, eds, 2000). Ancient literary sources, such as a speech by Chimerios – a rhetor, who lived from 300 to 380 AD – gives us interesting evidence on the Thracian element in 4th century diocese of Thrace. The speech, entitled Epithalamios eis Seberon, was written by the rhetor for the wedding of one of his students – Severos. The bride was a Thracian noble woman originating from Philippopolis. Chimerios, glorifying the genealogy of the bride, highlights her royal Thracian origin. According to the cited author her origin in its outermost roots reaches to the local Thracian rulers and her relatives up to Chimerios’ times (4th c. AD) have leading posts in the society and administration of the urban life of Thrace (Himer. Or., IX, 13, p. 83, 150 – 157) (Velkov 1958, 737). The source quoted shows us how the bride, a noble Thracian woman, citizen of Philippopolis in the 4th c. AD, takes pride in her origin and demonstrates consciousness of her Thracian identity. We can find data about many Thracians, citizens of the Eastern Balkan lands, who are the addressees in the issued decrees edited by emperor Diocletian during his journey in Moesia and Thrace and in other legislative sources, e.g. Ziparus from Durostorum (294 AD), Aurelia Zania Antipatrafrom Philippopolis(293 AD), Doles from Heracleia (294), Bithus (294), Auluzanus (293), Mucatralis (293), Diza (293), Dizo miles (290), Flavius Rumitalus (293 – 304) from unattested/Unamed cities. An argument for the preserved consciousness of a Thracian identity are the attestations of persons with leadings posts in the temporal power, in the clergy and in the army with Bessic origin in the historical, hagiographical works in the period between IV and VI centuries AD as well as in the epigraphic monuments. Traditions of indigenous funeral customs and beliefs in proper way to proceed to afterlife in Thrace and in other Roman provinces with strong indigenous traditions represent a phenomenon showing the importance of local and family traditions for keeping the ethno-cultural identity notably in Thrace, Galatia, Egypt, Syria and Gaul. In Thrace, the Thracian Hero-Rider is the most apparent example of the religious tradition outliving the pre-Roman period, being followed by the tumulus graves, of which more are known from the Roman times than from the previous Classical and Hellenistic periods, as shown in many individual cemeteries (e.g. Kanèeva.Ruseva, Velkov, Veselin 1996) and discussed in the series of colloquia on funeral archaeology, of which this colloquium is the Vth. Interesting is also the survival of the Thracian language until the end of Classical Antiquity, best documented by the existence of the Biblia Bessica (cf. Bouzek 2005, 138-144, with bibl.; Oppermann 2006). arheologie.ulbsibiu.ro/publicatii/ats/ats6.1/04/thrace%20roman.pdf
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Hellenas
Amicus
Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jun 11, 2011 22:43:59 GMT -5
true... many greek gods are taken from the thracians, even a whole religion - orphism. the thracian traditions were in vast contrast with the greek ones and thanks to this are described. the greeks never accepted the thracians as their kin. Incorrect, the Thracians wrote in Greek with the Greek alphabet(visit the nearest Bulgarian museum, or visit the Greek museums), had Greek Gods from the Greek pantheon of Gods, they were racially similar to Cretans and other Aegean Greeks(Read C.S.Coon, Aris Poulianos etc) they only had original Thracian tradition, as many other Greeks had too. From what you posted I read nothing about the non-Hellenicity of the Thracians, just some parts about their original tradition. Also no Historian ever took so seriously Herodotos, he usually wrote fairy tales and fantasy stories. He never visited Thrace as well.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 12, 2011 0:11:52 GMT -5
Obviously you have predecided what the Thracians were so I guess there is no point in posting any material that might enlighten you. The very southern Thracians used the Greek alphabeth, the others used the latin one. Not always did the very southern Thracians write in Greek, sometimes they wrote in Thracian. Also the fact that they wrote in Greek doesnt mean they were Greek. In the very fist centuries of the establishment of Bulgaria the inscriptions of the Bulgars were also in Greek - I guess in your eyes that makes them Greek too. FRom what I ve posted it is quite obvious the THracians saw themselves as something different than the Greeks and the Romans.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 12, 2011 0:15:51 GMT -5
Also some Greek gods are deffinately Thracian like Dyonis and as I said even a whole set of religious believes.
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Hellenas
Amicus
Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jun 12, 2011 16:21:06 GMT -5
The very southern Thracians used the Greek alphabeth, the others used the latin one. Not always did the very southern Thracians write in Greek, sometimes they wrote in Thracian. Also the fact that they wrote in Greek doesnt mean they were Greek. In the very fist centuries of the establishment of Bulgaria the inscriptions of the Bulgars were also in Greek - I guess in your eyes that makes them Greek too. Yes the Bulgarians(especially the southern ones) are partially Greeks/Hellenes. When someone writes in the Greek alphabet he is obviously a Greek not a non-Greek. I speak about the Thracians before the appearance of the Latins in historical times. The Thracian alphabet is Greek and so the later Latin alphabet that is also Greek as well.
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Post by Anittas on Jun 12, 2011 16:27:55 GMT -5
Greek was lingua franca, much like Assyrian was 2000 bc, as Latin became later and as English is for us now. Greek was widespread. Not everyone who wrote in Greek were Greek. Idiot!
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Hellenas
Amicus
Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jun 12, 2011 20:46:15 GMT -5
Not everyone who wrote in Greek were Greek. Idiot! The Thracians spoke Greek and wrote in Greek, they were racially Greek and had the Greek pantheon of Gods. Idiot is only you as well.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 12, 2011 23:31:27 GMT -5
Yes the Bulgarians(especially the southern ones) are partially Greeks/Hellenes. When someone writes in the Greek alphabet he is obviously a Greek not a non-Greek. I speak about the Thracians before the appearance of the Latins in historical times. The Thracian alphabet is Greek and so the later Latin alphabet that is also Greek as well. i dont believe you wrote that and that you believe what you wrote. how old are you? 16? I guess for you we are both English since we write in English and we both believe in Jesus and god, in which the English believe also. End of discussion.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 12, 2011 23:34:00 GMT -5
Are there any scripts from the Thracian language? What did they use to communicate with each other?
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Post by Anittas on Jun 13, 2011 4:13:27 GMT -5
Not everyone who wrote in Greek were Greek. Idiot! The Thracians spoke Greek and wrote in Greek, they were racially Greek and had the Greek pantheon of Gods. Idiot is only you as well. Thracians spoke Thracian, which differed from Greek.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 13, 2011 7:42:03 GMT -5
You got a script from that?
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jun 13, 2011 8:17:07 GMT -5
Yes the Bulgarians(especially the southern ones) are partially Greeks/Hellenes. When someone writes in the Greek alphabet he is obviously a Greek not a non-Greek. I speak about the Thracians before the appearance of the Latins in historical times. The Thracian alphabet is Greek and so the later Latin alphabet that is also Greek as well. i dont believe you wrote that and that you believe what you wrote. how old are you? 16? I guess for you we are both English since we write in English and we both believe in Jesus and god, in which the English believe also. End of discussion. No, no, no do you see the links at the bottom on Hellenas's messages, they are what runs his life. Those links have all the answers, in regards to everything.
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Post by Anittas on Jun 13, 2011 9:42:00 GMT -5
You got a script from that? Yes, there are a few. Yet you don't need to have a script to know that a language existed. There are other ways to prove it, such as ancient sources describing the language in question or linguists researching the name of settlements, personal names and tracing any other herritage in modern languages. For instance, an ancient Greek botanist wrote down the names of 60 plants in Dacian. That don't make Dacian a Greek language. Canaris, this is why this forum has lost so much. It seems that every year, you got one retard fvcking everything up and the rest must waste their energy on him. If you wanna argue for something, do it with sources and reason. But to repeat the same shyt over and over again--as this moron does--and call others for liars and whatever... it's beneath this forum. Or at least it should be.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
Posts: 3,563
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jun 13, 2011 9:47:08 GMT -5
I definitely agree.
I mean he has decided that I as a Turk must hate all Greeks and Greece and all sorts of BS. He is clearly deluded and needs medical assistance for some of the retarded statements he makes, I wouldn't be surprised if he is logging on from a mental hospital. As he fluctuates between being normal and a sociopath. must be the medication times.
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