|
Post by uz on Jul 1, 2011 17:12:36 GMT -5
Of course... but we are not living in times that have precedent. We are living in an age of greater and greater mass literacy. People have greater ability of shaping the world today than ever before. You think so, because of our advancement in technology, but take it a closer look. Our lifestyles haven't changed since the Romans.
|
|
|
Post by toskalik on Jul 1, 2011 17:12:47 GMT -5
Well yea, I never argued that we should worship the structure though. I think in steps at a time, we cannot shape a vision in a day nor in two. I just said that acting independently and individually leads to a greater division.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 1, 2011 17:21:13 GMT -5
I think the terms "unity" and "division" are overated. You can act individually and still keep in mind the human cause. At the same time, many peoples within communities who are technically "united" act individualistically and in the long-run hurt the common cause.
|
|
|
Post by toskalik on Jul 1, 2011 17:32:45 GMT -5
Man is by nature a social animal. Its true that groups can do good and bad, but trying to act as a ginel individual while ignoring the group will lead nowhere as well...
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 1, 2011 17:50:29 GMT -5
Man is by nature a social animal. Its true that groups can do good and bad, but trying to act as a ginel individual while ignoring the group will lead nowhere as well... Correct which is why I added. This is why I say, it's a matter of individual choice. No one should be forced into anything. Our choices should be genuine. We fabricated this system with the idea that our lives would be more organized, that humans would be more resourceful and in the end we would be living better lives together. - At the moment isn't it obvious that the HUMAN purpose is to serve the system? How come we forgot that we created this machine to serve us?
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 1, 2011 17:54:28 GMT -5
My conclusion is that RIGHT and LEFT does not exist. We cannot depend on something that has continueously failed us to all of a sudden change and make everything better. It will not, because it was not designed to.
|
|
|
Post by toskalik on Jul 1, 2011 17:57:12 GMT -5
Well, yea... of course. However, have you watched television lately? Heard the news? Walked down the street? Your views are generally a minority. Your saying making choice from a neutral point, which requires us to return man to a neutral state... where we are currently not even remotely close to.
|
|
|
Post by toskalik on Jul 1, 2011 18:06:32 GMT -5
Yea, well, acting like a hermit will not bring this about. A group, working together, with common goals and similar values, pushing against the tide is eddential
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Jul 1, 2011 18:11:45 GMT -5
Tosk... it's not a bed of roses...as some think.. up here.I speak from experience.. Your parents could have come to NY and figured you be okay working in a restaurant some place in Queens making $350 a week... but NO... they wanted something better for their son ... so they worked hard and send you to school ..
Take a drive through Detroit,Compton,Little Haiti and Liberty Town.... see blacks sell their food stamps for meth and crack.. all the time thinking that the rich evil corporations are keeping them in that misery..
I pay a lot of taxes up here in Canuckland... for $70,000 a year one can clear around $40,000 ... this is socialism $30,000 per year to pay for doctors and part of my kids education..plus 14% sales tax on goods and services. My take on that is if I paid only $10 thou I would have enough left over to pay for education and a top notch health plan... and go on a 4 week vacation once a year..I have learned to accept it.. and go on with my life ... mainly for the love I have for this country.
|
|
|
Post by toskalik on Jul 2, 2011 0:08:59 GMT -5
Uz's inherently hypocritical perspective comes to the fore.
Canaris, in the US it is 17% easier for a white ex-convict to get a job than an African American with no priors. The White Flight from the cities meant the abandonment of the inner cities, depriving them of any chance at capital. The end of industry meant that these people lost their jobs, while the flow of immigration has robbed them of a secure pay. Meanwhile, the social benefits that these people relied upon to sustain their living was being cut off, while banks refused to give them loans or pushed terrible subprime loans that meant that they were virtually slaves. My parents had a great benefit when they came to America: they were White. Meanwhile, the endless war on drugs has destroyed families by throwing away the husband into absurd prison years for minor infractions, leaving the woman to take care of families.
You guys lack a simple lack of any understanding, and quoting some trite expression derived from the Protestant morality of the Western world goes to show how far this ignorance goes
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 2, 2011 0:13:56 GMT -5
So what's changed over the past 800 years or so?
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Jul 2, 2011 1:08:10 GMT -5
There's a lot of white trash in America.... tent cities are full of them...what's their excuse?
|
|
|
Post by plisbardhi on Jul 2, 2011 3:00:27 GMT -5
The way I see this convo Toski is an idealist who doesn't understand that all these supposedly evil things he sees in this world happen for a reason. You can't blame Westerners for the failure of non-Westerners, this is simply because they aren't advanced enough or set up to succeed. By this I mean natural endowments of course. Look at Haiti and their 'revolution' against the French which was in actuality a complete massacre of whites. After the Blacks seized power Haiti reverted to its natural African character. The black on black slavery took over which is much more brutal than the European system (as was practiced in Africa also). Its also common to this day for the entire village to raise a child because nobody knows who the father is which is the root of today's U.S. Black non-father. That's just the nature of the African, the real crime is to impose on him Western civilization and expect him to function as a Westerner.
Uz is obviously confused and Canaris knows what he's talking about from experience but lacks the ability to put up a sophisticated argument.
|
|
|
Post by Shqipni13 on Jul 2, 2011 4:06:36 GMT -5
There's a lot of white trash in America.... tent cities are full of them...what's their excuse? That is as ignorant of a statement as republicans claiming cutting taxes creates jobs. There are a lot of people that lost their jobs even though the corporations they were working for are raking in the dough. It all comes to greed. I am simply too lazy to get into the numbers but how can JP Morgan justify all their layoffs while making billions upon billions. It is greed that has caused the mess we are in. This really is a black and white issue.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Jul 2, 2011 8:31:13 GMT -5
Every corporation has quotas as every employee. Each one of them bring in a total x amount of dollars during their working hours... if this falls below what the set limit is the employee is terminated.No corporation lays off profit making employees. I don't lack the eloquent way of describing it I am just fed up and lazy.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Jul 2, 2011 10:04:02 GMT -5
Democracy can be egalitarian, but it doesn't have to be egalitarian. I also don't consider Representative Democracy as true Democracy (Direct Democracy).
Nietzsche held different positions towards socialism and capitalism.
Human, All Too Human; A Look At The State. 446
There is much more to be said on this subject. I just hope Melty will not pursue a career in civil liberties and anything that has to do with social justice.
Homework for Melty: read American Rebel by Jack London.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 2, 2011 11:45:12 GMT -5
Plisbardhi, What exactly am I confused about?
I just don't think you can comprehend the level I'm trying to take this conversation to. Toskali earlier on stated so eloquently the issues HE SEES around him;
You guys can talk about your democracy, where the bar is and where we as people are headed. But what most of you seem to forget is that this has been the same for almost a thousand years. Our lifestyles have not changed, and technology has only made it more complicated.
So again I am going to ask; In the above quote, what exactly has changed over, say 800 years or so? It seems to me a common Roman would complain about the same thing.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Jul 2, 2011 11:51:07 GMT -5
There is hope in the horizon....
The Chinese are starting to live better... they drive better and more expensive cars,eat out,order fine wine with their dinners... and to do this you need to have a better salary..and thats what happening right now in China... Salaries have hit in some places $10 an hour..pretty soon they will hit some eastern European levels..and the 'evil' American corporations that moved it's operations there would have no choice but to move it back home.... it's coming ..and soon..
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Jul 2, 2011 12:24:39 GMT -5
Plisbardhi, What exactly am I confused about? I just don't think you can comprehend the level I'm trying to take this conversation to. Toskali earlier on stated so eloquently the issues HE SEES around him; You guys can talk about your democracy, where the bar is and where we as people are headed. But what most of you seem to forget is that this has been the same for almost a thousand years. Our lifestyles have no changed, and technology has only made it more complicated. So again I am going to ask; In the above quote, what exactly has changed over, say 800 years or so? What do you mean when you say that our lifestyles haven't changed?
|
|
|
Post by uz on Jul 2, 2011 13:27:34 GMT -5
Exactly that.
|
|