Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 27, 2011 2:00:28 GMT -5
Also according to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Croatian_Prayer_Book (btw i dont hold wikipedia high when it comes to hisory/politics, etc...) it says that it was a mix of ... "Church Slavonic and Äakavian idioms and written down in Glagolitic and Bosnian Cyrillic scripts, it retained a few phonological and morphological features found in the original manuscripts." So maybe it was somth artificial and not a spoken paradigm, and in no way can this salad be considered "pure croatian"!!! LOL!!!! If this is considered "Croatian" then the 80% of Croats speaking Stokavian are .... Serbs actually. (which is of course true, but no Croat ha sthe guts to admit it) You simply cannot compare this with the GREAT SERBIAN AND MUCH OLDER MASTERPIECES that i mentioned (Miroslav Gospel, Dusan's Codex).... Sorry ... ;D
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jul 27, 2011 8:37:48 GMT -5
Duh , all Slav languages are related. But surely you're talking about earlier Macedonian when you mean 'Real Serbian.' No evidence suggest that old Serbian or 'Slavoserbian' was West South Slavic but rather East South Slavic. those are later classifications. Thing is that in Vojvodina in 17th cent++ they spoke/wrote smth 100% similar to Russian, and from all aspect totally close to OCS. Vojvodina had/has a lot of non Croat and non Serb Slavs especially after the 16th century. The Croats ( including Sokci and Bunjevci) mostly hail from Lika who resettled in Vojvodina after the Turks devestated the Croatian heartland. The Serbs come from probably Kosovo and Macedonia who Eugene of Savoy and Carnojevic brought with him. Almost any written codex , manuscript or anything written in 'Serbian' from Vojvodina after thsi period to the 19th century would've appeared in OCS because Serbs didn't have a literary language yet. You can lie to yourself whatever way you want but the facts are these : * The first stokavian text written that resembles anything like modern neo-stokavian was the Croatian Vatican Prayer book. * Glagolitic was abandoned by almost all the Slavs but only retained for a couple centuries more by pretty much only the Croats and it was angularized enough to be distinct and originates from this point only in Croatia and parts of Bosnia. * Bosnian Cyrillic ( often called Croatian Cyrillic) was employed when Bosnian Croats started dominating even parts of Croatia ( Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic being the duke of Split , Dalmatia , and Croatia - Tvrtko adding southern and central Croatia to his realm). This kind of cyrillic is only found in Croatia and Bosnia and is written almost exclusively in Ikavian known to been spoken only by Croats and Bosnians at the time. * "Bosnian" next metamorphisis in written language was 'Arebica' where the Slavic ( Croatian language) was written in modified Arabic script. The first recorded document in this script of Bosnia is called 'Chrivat Turkisi' ( i.e. the Song of the Turkish Croat i.e. Bosnian Muslim). * Neostokavian championed by Ljudevit Gaj and Vuk Karadzic which most Serbs and Croats speak today was not the same as old Stokavian which was regionalized and in many cases very different. The modern language of Serbs and Croats is a hybrid of old Serbian and old Croatian dialects and languages but I argue its primarily Croatian because it is a West South Slav language in which Croatian ( old and new) was always a part of but Serbian was East South Slavic like Macedonian and Bulgarian. The Torlaks speak closer to real Serbian. The Neostokavian written dialect was mostly refined in Zagreb and Zagreb had the largest university in the region that taught primarily in the new language.
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Post by ulf on Jul 27, 2011 10:22:31 GMT -5
lol, Serbian language from 1000 to 1500 was different but not that different. Here you go a poem from 1497. (the oldest preserved written poem in original language):
"Orao se vijaše nad gradom Smederevom. Nitkore ne ćaše s njime govoriti, Nego Janko vojvoda govoraše iz tamnice: „Molim ti se, orle, sidi malo niže (Sidi malo niže) da s tobome progovoru. Bogom te brata jimaju, pođi do smederevske gospode Da s' mole slavnomu despotu da m' otpusti (Da m' otpusti) iz tamnice smederevske. I ako mi Bog pomože i slavni despot pusti iz tamnice smederevske, Ja te ću napitati črvene krvce tureške, Beloga tela viteškoga.“
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jul 27, 2011 11:16:51 GMT -5
lol, Serbian language from 1000 to 1500 was different but not that different. Here you go a poem from 1497. (the oldest preserved written poem in original language): "Orao se vijaše nad gradom Smederevom. Nitkore ne ćaše s njime govoriti, Nego Janko vojvoda govoraše iz tamnice: „Molim ti se, orle, sidi malo niže (Sidi malo niže) da s tobome progovoru. Bogom te brata jimaju, pođi do smederevske gospode Da s' mole slavnomu despotu da m' otpusti (Da m' otpusti) iz tamnice smederevske. I ako mi Bog pomože i slavni despot pusti iz tamnice smederevske, Ja te ću napitati črvene krvce tureške, Beloga tela viteškoga.“ This was originally written by an Italian who heard Slavs near Naples Italy. The text you posted is a 1977 translation into modern Serbian. It wasn't written originally the way you posted it. LOL This is the original: Orauias natgradum smereuo nit core nichiasce snime gouorithi nego Jamco goiuoda gouorasce istmize molimtise orle sidi maolonisce dastibome progouoru bigomte bratta zimaiu pogi dosmederesche dasmole slauono mo despostu damosposti istamice smederesche Jacomi bopomoste Jslaui dispot pusti Jsmederesche tamice ,Jatechui napitati serene creucze turesche bellocatela vitesco cha: Two things , one we don't know if these were Serbs in Italy but the descendents of these Slavs claim Croatian ancestry. Molise Croats. Two, even reading what the author thought he heard doesn't sound anything like modern Serbian or Croatian. No sign of neostokavianism either.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jul 27, 2011 11:17:27 GMT -5
Try again. You won't find very much of anything written in "Serbian" before Vuk Karadzic. Just a heads up.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 28, 2011 3:04:01 GMT -5
Try again. You won't find very much of anything written in "Serbian" before Vuk Karadzic. Just a heads up. Whatever was written, was BETTER, OLDER and BIGGER and MORE IMPORTANT than anything Croat. Face it bro, @1000-1400 AD, the game was played in the east. The whatever slavs were living further from the centers of power remained irrelevant. PS Jesus dude, first decide which language exactly Croats wish to speak, and then deal with Serbs... Take your time, you will need it ;D
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 28, 2011 3:09:23 GMT -5
BTW I never imagined that parts of Italy was Serbian as well..... I have heard neo-arvanites prostitutes of deception who claim that ... Slavs never came in Greece, and the so called Slavic toponyms are not slavic at all, and what... should we assume also that .... PADOVA in Italy is ... SLavic as well? WELL YES!!!! PADOVA IS SLAVIC AS WELL!! BTW The Venedi tribe living around Venice must have been totally similar to Serbs (Slavs).
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 28, 2011 6:03:47 GMT -5
Ulf, regarding the "smederevo" poem, does the Ustasa's views hold any water ? ( i doubt it, but a verification would be nice).
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Post by ulf on Jul 30, 2011 23:21:07 GMT -5
I know its written in city called Gioia del Colle which isn't so near Naples. The writer was called Rogeri de Pacienza. The city at the time was under jurisdiction of Kingdom of Sicily. About Slavs who lived there. Its logical to conclude that they crossed Adriatic sea, probably running away from Turks which came to this area just 50 years or so before the song was written down. Speaking about "CITY OF SMEDEREVO" makes its clear that they came somewhere from present day Serbia, as John Hunyadi was captured after this battle(and imprisoned in Smederevo): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_%281448%29Apulia was inhabited by the same refugees from Balkan(those that managed to escape) Now about the text, I am not quite sure because I can't find more info then I did, except some forums which I have 0 level of trust
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Post by ulf on Jul 30, 2011 23:28:01 GMT -5
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 8, 2011 3:30:02 GMT -5
^^ very interesting, i wish i had more knowledge of Serbian to study this by myself. anyways, those Serbs in south Italy, did they speak Ekavica or Jekavica?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 8, 2011 7:50:41 GMT -5
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 8, 2011 8:19:52 GMT -5
It is very common for the vatican to tag as croats, all south slavs that it managed to subdue under its roman catholic faith. The Krasovani Serbs of Romania is a classic example.
You are getting more confused and inconsistent with every post.
"na naso" LMAO!!!
STFU at last!
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 8, 2011 11:34:35 GMT -5
Not as common as Serbs tagging anything Slavic in SE Europe as 'Serbian.' Anyway , its little disputed about the ethnicity of the Molise Croats.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 8, 2011 11:37:01 GMT -5
Krashovani are either descended from Croatian merchants from Dalmatia ( like Kosovo Croats) or are Timok Serbs or Bulgarians that took on the faith of the Croats. Or they could actually be slavicized Vlachs ( i.e. like most Bosnian Serbs) but Catholic.Doesn't matter , they consider themselves Croat today and that's what counts.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 9, 2011 2:56:27 GMT -5
^^^ LMAO, you have real issues with your logic, BTW, its not the faith of the croats, its the faith of your great non-slavic masters located in vatican, stop confusing things for once. Also, about Bosnia/HR, there has never been any signs of latin language (besides dalmatia) spoken in those regions. IMO Bosnian muslims originate from Peloponese/Greece (judging by the toponyms, eponyms, religion (bogomil)) while Serbs of Bosna originate from Epirus and west Greece (again judging by the HUGE similarity in toponyms). Now, Epirus was indeed homeland to some vlahs, who of course stayed forever loyal to the "Gate" (Constantinoupolis) and never left greece. So maybe, this (vlah-thingy) was a failed nick name given by the ex-peloponese slavs (Boslims) to the ex-epirus slavs (Serbs) based on their place of origin?, in the usual fashion of yet another inter-slavic idiotic conflict??? I'd say 100%.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Aug 9, 2011 2:58:19 GMT -5
Not as common as Serbs tagging anything Slavic in SE Europe as 'Serbian.' Anyway , its little disputed about the ethnicity of the Molise Croats. how about the site that ULF posted? Did you take a look there? So i'd say that quite a few things are disputed for the SERBS of south italy. They could have fled there from the Greek Epiros (which used to belong to Serbs till ~ 1400++ AD) or CG.
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