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Post by Kastorianos on Aug 13, 2011 3:49:53 GMT -5
do you think you are closer to Bulgarians or Serbs genetically? I mean do you think your ancestors felt as Bulgarians or Serbs...lets say in 1300.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 14, 2011 21:58:13 GMT -5
do you think you are closer to Bulgarians or Serbs genetically? I mean do you think your ancestors felt as Bulgarians or Serbs...lets say in 1300. from a linguistic and cultural perspective, macedonians were close to both slavic nations. genetically however, we are closer to bulgarian slavs. given that ancient macedonians and thracians were related tribes, the fact that bulgarians absorbed the remnants of the thracians, and modern macedonians absorbed the remnants of ancient macedonians, makes us closer than the illyrian slavs (ie. serbs and croats).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 15, 2011 2:30:34 GMT -5
^ forget about this B.S illyrian and thracian crap, they are no more.
Studies have been done, concluding that Vardar river region slavs and Serbs are *gentically closest to each other* than any other group in the region, read:
Subclade J2f1 is present at 2.5% in Serbs and Slavic Macedonians. I1b* (xM26) is at 29-32% in Serbs, Macedonians and Croats, as low as 3% in Macedonian Roma and Kosovar Albanians, as high as 63% in Herzegovinians. The R1a is the same in Macedonians and Serbs at 15% and close to Herzegovinians at 12%, notable gap between the Albanians (4%) and Croats (35%). Bosnian Serbs are closer to Bosniaks than to Croats, the J Haplogroup is 9% in Serbs and 12% in Bosniaks and almost non-existent among Croats. I-P37 is higher in Croats (71%) than in Serbs (31%) and Bosniaks (44%).[2] In Europe, the highest frequency of the E3b1-α cluster is among Kosovo Albanians (45.6%), Albanians (27.0%), and Macedonians (24.1%). The frequency of this cluster among Serbs from Serbia is 20.4%, and among Herzegovinians 8.5%.[3]
Y Chromosome HG2 is around 50% in Yugoslavs, Georgians, Ukrainians, with Turks and French at 25%. HG1 is at 10-15% in Serbs, Greeks, Cypriots, Belarusians, Ukrainians and in the Baltic peoples. HG3 is frequent in Central Europe but declines towards Eurasia, 15% in Serbs and Romanians, 8% in Greeks, 50% in Russians and 55% in Poles. HG9 is non-existent in Northern Europe, 10% in Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Serbs, Portuguese, higher concentration in Italy, Greece, Turkey and Caucasus. HG21 is at 13% in Serbs, Italians and Portuguese, higher concentration in Greeks at 30% and as low as 4% in Ukrainians.[4] Haplogroup I2, predominant in Western Balkans
The high frequencies of haplogroup I1b* (xM26) among Serbs and neighboring Slavic-speaking populations, the highest in Europe, testify to their common paternal lineage. Serbs have also a relatively high frequency of R1a. High frequencies of both I1b* (xM26) and R1a are characteristic for Slavic paternal gene pool. The main genetic heterogeneity among Serbs is observed in the frequencies of the E3b1-α cluster. The population of the Dinaric complex has a significantly lower frequency of that cluster than the population of the Morava-Danube river system. This is a result of the distribution of different pre-Slavic Balkan populations.[3]
The ethnic group closest to the Serbs genetically is the Macedonian Slavs.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 15, 2011 7:50:02 GMT -5
^^ Doesn't look like there's any data on the Bulgarians.
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Post by ulf on Aug 15, 2011 9:15:08 GMT -5
Novi Pazar, those are outdated info.
Here you go a better one:
Y-chromosomal haplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K*-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F*-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with little frequencies.[16][17][18]
I2a-P37.2 is the most prevailing haplogroup, accounting for nearly one-third of Serbian Y chromosomes. Its frequency peaks in Herzegovina (64%), and its variance peaks over a large geographic area covering B-H, Serbia, Hungaria, Czech Republic, and Slovakia. Geneticists estimate that I2a-P37.2 originated some 10,000 years before present (ybp) in the Balkans, from where it began to expand to Central, Eastern, and Southern Europe about 7000 ybp. It is the second most predominant Y-chromosomal haplogroup in the overall Slavic gene pool. Slavic migrations to the Balkans in the early Middle Ages possibly contributed to the frequency and variance of I2a-P37.2 in the region.[16]
E1b1b1a2-V13 is the second most prevailing haplogroup, accounting for one-fifth of Serbian Y chromosomes. Its frequency peaks in Albania at 24% (among Kosovo Albanians it is 44% due to genetic drift), and is also high among Greeks, Romanians, Macedonian Slavs, and Bulgarians. It is rare among other Slavs, and moderate frequencies of it are found in southern Italy and Anatolia.[16][18] E-V13 probably originated in the southern Balkans about 9000 ybp. Its ancestral haplogroup, E1b1b1a-M78, could be of a northeast African origin.[18]
R1a1-M17 accounts for about one-seventh to one-sixth of Serbian Y chromosomes. Its frequency peaks in Poland (56.4%) and Ukraine (54.0%), and its variance peaks in northern Bosnia.[16] It originated around 20,000 ybp likely in southern Siberia, and some of its bearers migrated to the Balkans 10,000 to 13,000 ybp. About 5000 to 6000 ybp, they began to migrate from the Balkans to the west toward the Atlantic, to the north toward the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia, to the east to the Russian plains and steppes, and to the south to Asia Minor.[19] It became the most predominant haplogroup in the general Slavic paternal gene pool. The variance of R1a1 in tha Balkans might have been enhanced by infiltrations of Indo-European speaking peoples between 2000 and 1000 BC, and by the Slavic migrations to the region in the early Middle Ages.[16][17] A descendant lineage of R1a1-M17, R1a1a7-M458, which has the highest frequency in central and southern Poland (30%, more than half of total R1a1 there), is also observed among East Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples, but it is very rare among South Slavs, including Serbs.[20]
R1b1b2-M269 is moderately represented among the Serb males (6–10%). It has its frequency peak in Western Europe (90% in Wales), but a high frequency is also found in the Caucasus among the Ossetians (43%).[16] It was introduced to Europe by farmers migrating from Western Anatolia, probably about 7500 ybp. Serb bearers of this haplogroup are in the same cluster as Central and Eastern European ones, as indicated by the frequency distributions of its sub-haplogroups with respect to total R-M269. The other two clusters comprise, respectively, Western Europeans and a group of populations from Greece, Turkey, the Caucasus and the Circum-Uralic region.[21]
J2b-M102 and J2a1b1-M92 have low frequencies among the Serbs (6–7% combined). Variuos other lineages of haplogroup J2-M172 are found throughout the Balkans, all with low frequencies. Haplogroup J and all its descendants originated in the Middle East. It is proposed that the Balkan Mesolithic foragers, bearers of I-P37.2 and E-V13, adopted farming from the initial J2 agriculturalists who colonized the region about 7000 to 8000 ybp, transmitting the Neolithic cultural package.[18]
An analysis of molecular variance based on Y-chromosomal STRs showed that Slavs can be divided into two distinct groups: one encompassing West Slavs, East Slavs, Slovenes, and western Croats, and the other encompassing Macedonian Slavs, Serbs, Bosniaks, and northern Croats (the latter six populations are South Slavic speakers). This distinction could be explained by a genetic contribution of pre-Slavic Balkan populations to the genetic heritage of South Slavs belonging to the latter group.[22] Principal component analysis of Y-chromosomal haplogroup frequencies among the three ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbs, Croats, and Bosniacs, showed that Serbs and Bosniacs are genetically closer to each other than either of them is to Croats.[17]
According to Serbian physical anthropologist Živko Mikić, the medieval population of Serbia developed a phenotype that represented a mixture of Slavic and indigenous Balkan Dinaric traits. Mikić, however, argues that the Dinaric traits, such as brachycephaly and a bigger average height, have been since then becoming predominant over the Slavic traits among Serbs.[23]
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 15, 2011 18:49:21 GMT -5
From iGenea:
Albania: 30% Illyrians 15% Phoenician 14% Hellenen 18%Thraker 2% Vikings 20% slavs
Greece: 10% Germanic 10%illyrians 20% slavs 20% phoenician 5% macedonian (in north more than 18%) 35% Hellenen
Bulgaria: 49%Thraker 11%macedonian 15%slavs 15%hellenen 5% pheonician
Macedonia: 30%macedonian 10% illyrian 15% hellenen 5%phoenician 20% germanic 5% hunnen 15% slavs
Bosnia 50% Illyrer 4% Thraker 20% Germanen 6% Hunnen 15% Slawen 15% Kelten
Serbien: 30% Slawen 9% Phönizier 21% Illyrer 14% Kelten 8% Hellenen 2% wikinger 18% Germanen
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Post by Shqipni13 on Aug 15, 2011 19:10:55 GMT -5
^Silly slavo makedonkey. Is that what golce delcev told you in your dreams?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 15, 2011 20:03:54 GMT -5
^Silly slavo makedonkey. Is that what golce delcev told you in your dreams? ha ha ha. no he told me that shiptars are the carriers of ottoman islamic culture in the balkans and should be wiped out...
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Aug 15, 2011 20:10:01 GMT -5
I doubt these genetic surveys are accurate. They seem to be based on a sample space of 100-200 people within populations of millions.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Aug 15, 2011 22:13:51 GMT -5
^They're all bullshit.
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Post by ulf on Aug 16, 2011 2:31:46 GMT -5
I doubt these genetic surveys are accurate. They seem to be based on a sample space of 100-200 people within populations of millions. Kind of agree with you here. Beside, you will never know your own Y-DNA haplogroup unless you take the test yourself(or your brother, dad, grandpa or even dad's brother), for example I did and I got R1a, but I really was expecting I2a, so it was kind of surprise for me
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Aug 16, 2011 9:49:32 GMT -5
I still have no idea what these R1a, I2a etc. labels mean.
Anyway, regardless of accuracy, all these tests seem to show that all people are mixed. Ironically enough, it appears that some of the 'racial superiority' or 'racial purity' "experts" seem to resort to these test to prove purity.. yet, they show exactly the opposite.
It seems like the modern ethnic groups of the Balkans are composed of more or less the same elements, some of which are more pronounced in one population vs another.
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Post by ulf on Aug 16, 2011 10:23:57 GMT -5
I still have no idea what these R1a, I2a etc. labels mean. Anyway, regardless of accuracy, all these tests seem to show that all people are mixed. Ironically enough, it appears that some of the 'racial superiority' or 'racial purity' "experts" seem to resort to these test to prove purity.. yet, they show exactly the opposite. It seems like the modern ethnic groups of the Balkans are composed of more or less the same elements, some of which are more pronounced in one population vs another. R1a, I2a etc. means that your ancestor came from a certain area to the Balkan(the place where the mutation happened), and you can found which by testing it. You can also(depends from the company you're doing at) see where are your closest "relatives"(where they live) by researching their database. As for example, I2a is common among men in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia and Bulgaria(in this exact order), while R1a is common for Lusatian Serbs, Poles, Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovenians(talking about Slavic countries)...Croats(actually you can divide them in two groups according to these tests), Serbians, Macedonians, Bosnians and Bulgarians have them as well, but to a much lesser degree
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Aug 16, 2011 10:34:01 GMT -5
Ok, so lets say I2a is found in a person who lives outside of the Balkans. In a different continent even. Does this mean that this person would have had an ancestor that has originated from either Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, or Bulgaria?
Basically what you're saying is that the I2a is most concentrated in the countries you listed?
Also, how exactly do they decide that this I2a is an integral determining factor?
I mean, from what I've seen and the people I've met in my life.. Bulgarians and Macedonians, physically, seem to resemble Greeks and Romanians more so than Serbs. Yet our culture is more similar to the Serbian culture as opposed to the Greek or Romanian cultures.
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Post by ulf on Aug 16, 2011 11:01:33 GMT -5
Ok, so lets say I2a is found in a person who lives outside of the Balkans. In a different continent even. Does this mean that this person would have had an ancestor that has originated from either Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, or Bulgaria? Basically what you're saying is that the I2a is most concentrated in the countries you listed? It means that this guy had same ancestors long, long time ago as someone from Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia or Bulgaria who carries the same haplogroup. Yes, about 30% or more or the tested people had this I2a haplogroup, per country. Say you have I2a, for example(I2a, R1a... are just named like so by scientists). Its a sequence of your Y chromosome which mutated in different way(actually your ancestor you just inherited it from your father) then for example the one which hold R1a. Well, I only met few Bulgarians so far, but from my trips to Greece and Macedonia I can just say that the people of these two nations really don't look more similar then Macedonians and Serbians look.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Aug 16, 2011 13:08:06 GMT -5
Damn all this genetic talk is way too complex for me. And in in high school biology was one of my best subjects. lol
I've met a few Serbs that can easily pass for Bulgarians, mainly the ones who have darker features.
But one of the main differentiation factors I've noticed is height.. on average, the Serbs I've met, are significantly taller than the Bulgarians, Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians I've met.
And second, in the Serbs that have light features/light eyes.. their faces look completely different from the majority of the Bulgarians, Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians I've seen.
Also, I'm not talking dead set specifics, just basing this on the average look of the people I've met or seen. And I do realize that each of these peoples have a portion of their own population that doesn't really look like the majority within the specific country.
For me personally, on at least two or more occasions, I've been asked if I'm Croatian, Greek, Macedonian, Italian, Albanian, Portuguese, or Persian. Out of these, the Italian and Persian assumptions seem most prevalent as I've gotten those many more times than the rest.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 16, 2011 20:26:10 GMT -5
I would tend to agree that the 'Mediterranean' element is far more prevalent amongst Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Romanians then it is for Serbs and Croats.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 16, 2011 23:57:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Ulf.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 17, 2011 0:05:08 GMT -5
"I would tend to agree that the 'Mediterranean' element is far more prevalent amongst Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Romanians then it is for Serbs and Croats."
We can base this from a geographical view only, not one that ivo implies derives from ethnicity (Bulgarian, Serb) i.e, Pontids are Bulgarians and Dinarics are Serbs. If that were the case then we Serbs arn't Serbs because original Serbs were from the Nordic stock. Taking ivo's stupidity one further, then Danube BuLgari arn't Bulgars because originally they were Mongoloids.
So, yes, from a geographical view, as you move further south towards Greece the mediterrean element gets stronger.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Aug 17, 2011 0:11:20 GMT -5
"I would tend to agree that the 'Mediterranean' element is far more prevalent amongst Macedonians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Romanians then it is for Serbs and Croats." We can base this from a geographical view only, not one that ivo implies derives from ethnicity (Bulgarian, Serb) i.e, Pontids are Bulgarians and Dinarics are Serbs. If that were the case then we Serbs arn't Serbs because original Serbs were from the Nordic stock. Taking ivo's stupidity one further, then Danube BuLgari arn't Bulgars because originally they were Mongoloids. So, yes, from a geographical view, as you move further south towards Greece the mediterrean element gets stronger. From a genetic perspective, the Dinaric element is stronger in ethnic Macedonians than it is amongst Bulgarians, and yet the Mediterranean element in stronger in Macedonians than it is for Serbs.
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