Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 12, 2011 18:26:35 GMT -5
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 12, 2011 23:19:34 GMT -5
^ Chento, l rarely ever speak about issues post 1918, l focus mainly at the time of slavic settlements to 1918, never really post 1918 onwards.
You talk above about Serbianisation, but Bulgarisation of serbs during 1872 through to 1912 was the factor post 1918, in which, these Bulgarianised people continued to spread distrust among the population of Southern Serbia.
Take for example 'Dimo Kazasov' who pointed out that the hatred of the Serbs was the principal motive of all shades of opinion among those championing the Macedonian cause who, after the Second Balkan War and World War 1, refused to reconcile themselves with a fait accompli. These groups persisted in spreading distrust of the Serbian regime among the population of Southern Serbia. Also Chento, if we look towards the end of 1912, THE NON-SLAV national minorities in Southern Serbia began to unite in resisting the new situation. A delegation, if you know about this Chento, of Macedonian Turks submitted to the peace conference in Lausanne a memorandum, signed by Halim-bey Sami, who acted as their chairman, Nesim Ruso and Mehmed Galib, containing demands which Turkey had consistently opposed while she had been in control of these regions-i.e, (1) the formation of an automonous region with Salonica as its capital; (2) a gurantee from the great powers that this automony would be respected; and (3) European control over this territory. A similar request, supported by Italy, was submitted by the Macedonian Romanians in the area of the Pindus Mountains.
Dimo Kazasov also makes mention that a similar appeal had also been addressed to the peace conference by a group of Slavs, WHO, ON INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE BULGARIAN GOVERNMENT, DEMANDED THE FORMATION OF AN AUTONOMOUS MACEDONIA
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 12, 2011 23:31:18 GMT -5
Novi, it was precisley the Exarchate that preserved the Slavic element in Macedonia during the period you mention. Had it not been for the Exarchate, Macedonians would have remained under the Patriachate and disappeared as a Slavic nation. Our fate would have been that of the Aegean Macedonians today. This is why Macedonians voted in favour of joining the Exarchate. It gave us an opportunity to learn a Slavic language and practice our religion in a language which we understood. You still fail to understand the battle with Greeks over Macedonia, which continues to this day. It does not involve the Serbs, beacuase they have always been a minor player in the Macedonian game. You have always been pre-occupied in the north (Croatia, Bosnia), and so have never really been a serious contender. The Greeks know that their battles in Macedonia have always been fought with Bulgars and Slav-Macedonians. The Serbs were late-comers and never really a factor. Much the same way as in the 6th century, when they briefly entered Macedonia and then left.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 13, 2011 1:44:58 GMT -5
I agree with Chento with a minor correction: at the time of the exarchate there were no Macedonians as an ethnicity but Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 13, 2011 3:16:20 GMT -5
A similar request, supported by Italy, was submitted by the Macedonian Romanians in the area of the Pindus Mountains. this i can verify.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 13, 2011 3:22:59 GMT -5
Novi, it was precisley the Exarchate that preserved the Slavic element in Macedonia during the period you mention. Had it not been for the Exarchate, Macedonians would have remained under the Patriachate and disappeared as a Slavic nation. Our fate would have been that of the Aegean Macedonians today. This is why Macedonians voted in favour of joining the Exarchate. It gave us an opportunity to learn a Slavic language and practice our religion in a language which we understood. You still fail to understand the battle with Greeks over Macedonia, which continues to this day. It does not involve the Serbs, beacuase they have always been a minor player in the Macedonian game. You have always been pre-occupied in the north (Croatia, Bosnia), and so have never really been a serious contender. The Greeks know that their battles in Macedonia have always been fought with Bulgars and Slav-Macedonians. The Serbs were late-comers and never really a factor. Much the same way as in the 6th century, when they briefly entered Macedonia and then left. i cannot accept that. the only way that the slavs of makedonia could be greekified (and in fact MANY MANY of my idiotic countrymen wish so, but that's it : only wishful thinking) is only if makedonia was full of unnamed vlahs with minimal national or linguistic character. Of course this is not the case, never was and never will be. Yes, Vlahs tend to be pro-greek, (same happens in Albania) but unless Vlahs are a majority there is no fear of greekification. OTOH bear in mind that assimilation and bastardization if not done "naturally", from within the family/community and not the state/church, they are rarely successful (look at the lousy results of brutal Bulgarian expansionism via the exharhate had on Nis/Vranje/Leskovac). Also a prime example is Greece. I would love to see greeks being pure, proud, tall, fast, clever and hard working like the Cretans, but instead we have a sea of beaten up ex-vlah, ex-albanian maggots who can barely lift a finger.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 13, 2011 8:13:47 GMT -5
Bulgars had the exarchate and also a terrorist Komitadj.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 13, 2011 8:56:42 GMT -5
"Novi, it was precisley the Exarchate that preserved the Slavic element in Macedonia during the period you mention. Had it not been for the Exarchate, Macedonians would have remained under the Patriachate and disappeared as a Slavic nation. Our fate would have been that of the Aegean Macedonians today. This is why Macedonians voted in favour of joining the Exarchate. It gave us an opportunity to learn a Slavic language and practice our religion in a language which we understood. You still fail to understand the battle with Greeks over Macedonia, which continues to this day. It does not involve the Serbs, beacuase they have always been a minor player in the Macedonian game. You have always been pre-occupied in the north (Croatia, Bosnia), and so have never really been a serious contender. The Greeks know that their battles in Macedonia have always been fought with Bulgars and Slav-Macedonians. The Serbs were late-comers and never really a factor. Much the same way as in the 6th century, when they briefly entered Macedonia and then left."
There is some twist going on here. O.k Chento, yes, its true that the slavs didn't want Greek church services and were ready to join anybody, even Russians for that matter. However, the Bulgarians used the exarchate and exploited the situation, why was it important for the BuLgari to eradicate everything serbian in the region, like 'slava' for instance?......at the end of the day, serbs have a memorial in kumanovo, they freed the southern serbs from the turks. Its gut renching that you have more respect for the garbage BuLgari than the Serbs!....and what did the BuLgari do, nothing, they wanted to Bulgarianise you via harmful methods, like rape and arson for instance, not good.
Again, Serbs settled and stayed in Vardar, no temporary stay by serbian tribes as you and your BuLgari would like to believe.
Serbs were out of money to help the people of southern serbia, have a read of the following:
How Serbs, nevertheless, came to be Bulgarised may be seen from the following instance. On one occasion when he was a boy, Jakov Ljotich, whose father was Serbian consul in Thessaloniki, asked Hadji Mishev, a prominent merchant who was a good friend and a frequent guest of his father's, to tell him frankly whether he was a Serb or a Bulgar. Mishev, whose son was a highly placed official in the Bulgarian Ministry of Foregin Affairs, turned to Ljotich's mother and said: "What shall l say to this youngster? It's ridiculous and absurd that l was once a Serb and am now a Bulgar, but that is the truth. In 1879, together with two other people from Veles, l went to Belgrade to ask Jovan Ristich on behalf of the town of Veles to send us a Serbian teacher, whom we would pay, and to give us Serbian books, for which we also offered to pay. Ristich replied: "WE HAVE WAGED TWO EXHAUSTING WARS AGAINST THE TURKS, AND WE CAN GIVE YOU NOTHING. GO TO SOFIA, FOR RUSSIA IS POURING SUPPLIES INTO BULGARIA AND GIVING HER EVERYTHING. THEY WILL LET YOU HAVE ALL THAT YOU WANT. WE TOO WENT TO SOFIA AND GOT WHAT WE NEEDED, AND ALL AT THEIR EXPENSE."
Something similar happened to Spiridon Gopchevich and Dimitrije Petrov, who toured Macedonia with the object of acquainting themselves on the spot with the true ethnic situation. When they asked a peasant from Crna Reka whether he was a Serb or Bulgar, he replied: "It is true that the Serbs share with us the same language and the 'slava', but it is also true that the Bulgars have accepted us WITH MONEY. THE SERBS ARE OUR BLOOD BROTHERS AND THE BULGARS OUR HALF BROTHERS, BUT THE LATTER TREAT US LIKE REAL BROTHERS AND THE FORMER LIKE HALF BROTHERS."
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 13, 2011 9:02:12 GMT -5
Yes, this is no secret. Serbian presence in Macedonia has never been anything of significance until the 20th century. And even then, it was artificially implanted.
Yup. At that time there were no 'ethnic Macedonians', there were only ethnic Bulgarians or Macedono-Bulgarians. Those were the only two ways that the majority of the Slavic speaking population had identified as, either as ethnic Bulgarians or as ethnic Macedono-Bulgarians. At that time, a self identification of being 'Macedonian' was only significant on a regional basis. The regional identity of being Macedonian became an ethnic identity several decades after the Second Balkan War.
Gyrro, nobody cares what you think bro. You've shown us that you don't read your own sources, your own sources contradict your statements and I've shown you that. The only people who care are equally delusional individuals like Pazar and Kriv who are under the impression that all Slavs are Serbs. Any person with half a brain can easily see that what you write is usually either entirely inaccurate, or is quoted out of context thus rendering it irrelevant.
Yes yes let's hate on the mean 'ol Bulgars for trying to preserve their identity in their own lands and save their own people, women, and children from the brutal punishments of Serb and Greek invaders.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 13, 2011 9:09:56 GMT -5
Some 20,000-30,000 Serbs had temporarily settled in parts of Vardar Macedonia.. however, almost all of those migrated South through modern day Greece to eventually settle in modern day Turkey. Their settlement in Anatolia was known as Gordoservon, and has been estimated at about 20,000-25,000.
This means that the few Serbs that remained in Macedonia were definitely fewer than say 20,000. Even if they stayed, their settlements were not condensed. They were a dispersed population in small number, which made them easy targets for assimilation by local Slavic (non-Serb) tribes.
The only other bit is Serbia's control over modern day Macedonia during the Serbian Empire.. however, that control only lasted for about 20-30 years or so.
Technically, if Serbia was to assert a claim on Turkey.. they'd have more credibility and would probably be better able to defend that claim as opposed to a claim on Macedonia.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 13, 2011 18:13:00 GMT -5
Novi, fear not, we still celebrate our Slava! We are also all Komiti. Some of our greatest heroes were Komiti. You can travel throughout Macedonia and see monuments and statues of our Komiti and you can listen to songs and participate in celebrations of our Komiti. You can even join the Vardar Skopje FC supporter group 'Komiti' if you so please. Chetniks on the other hand, would be cursed and spat on. VMRO is the largest party in Macedonia and the most popular. It is the current ruling party, and our President is from VMRO. Even the opposition SDSM, claims to represent the historic left wing of VMRO. So you see, we are all VMRO and we are all Komiti! Lyrics of the Macedonian anthem; Denes nad Makedonija se ragja novo sonce na slobodata Makedoncite se borat za svoite pravdini! Makedoncite se borat za svoite pravdini! Odnovo sega znameto se vee na Krushevskata Republika Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli Dame Gruev, Sandanski! Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli Dame Gruev, Sandanski! Gorite Makedonski shumno peat novi pesni, novi vesnici Makedonija slobodna slobodna zhivee! Makedonija slobodna slobodna zhivee! English: Today on Macedonia, is born the new sun of liberty The Macedonians fight for their own rights! The Macedonians fight for their own rights! For now on, the flag flies (that) of the Krushevo Republic Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli Dame Gruev, Sandanski! Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli Dame Gruev, Sandanski! The burning Macedonian forests sing (of) new songs, new news Macedonia is liberated Liberty lives! Macedonia is liberated Liberty lives! Notice all the Komiti
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 13, 2011 22:31:35 GMT -5
"Some 20,000-30,000 Serbs had temporarily settled in parts of Vardar Macedonia.. however, almost all of those migrated South through modern day Greece to eventually settle in modern day Turkey. Their settlement in Anatolia was known as Gordoservon, and has been estimated at about 20,000-25,000.
This means that the few Serbs that remained in Macedonia were definitely fewer than say 20,000. Even if they stayed, their settlements were not condensed. They were a dispersed population in small number, which made them easy targets for assimilation by local Slavic (non-Serb) tribes.
The only other bit is Serbia's control over modern day Macedonia during the Serbian Empire.. however, that control only lasted for about 20-30 years or so.
Technically, if Serbia was to assert a claim on Turkey.. they'd have more credibility and would probably be better able to defend that claim as opposed to a claim on Macedonia."
Funk you spin it, l would certainly vote you into a corrupted government like the United States, Hilary Clinton will love you.
Eventhou this isn't about Western Bugarska, the Ex-Serbian population were, what l would say, Bulgarianised successfully. Anyway, you have forgotten to mention THERE WERE 5 MORE TRANSFERS OF SERBS BETWEEN THE 7th to 11th CENTURIES from the region of vardar. Lets see, between the years of 1118 and 1143, the Emperor John Comnenus resettled some of the Serbs in the region of Nicomedia.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2011 2:02:32 GMT -5
^^ not only vardar bro but from the whole Greece as well..
Now check this out : THE LAST WAVE OF SERBS TO MIGRATE FROM EPIROS TO THE NORTH WAS IN 1690.
PS no wander why SO many pre-1800 macedonian songs had the use of DECLENSIONS... (as spoken in south Serbia).
PS2
Novi bro, do you understand that the exodus of Serbs that is happening now in Kosovo.... started MUCH earlier and MUCH more south???
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2011 2:03:42 GMT -5
Yes, this is no secret. Serbian presence in Macedonia has never been anything of significance until the 20th century. And even then, it was artificially implanted. Yup. At that time there were no 'ethnic Macedonians', there were only ethnic Bulgarians or Macedono-Bulgarians. Those were the only two ways that the majority of the Slavic speaking population had identified as, either as ethnic Bulgarians or as ethnic Macedono-Bulgarians. At that time, a self identification of being 'Macedonian' was only significant on a regional basis. The regional identity of being Macedonian became an ethnic identity several decades after the Second Balkan War. Gyrro, nobody cares what you think bro. You've shown us that you don't read your own sources, your own sources contradict your statements and I've shown you that. The only people who care are equally delusional individuals like Pazar and Kriv who are under the impression that all Slavs are Serbs. Any person with half a brain can easily see that what you write is usually either entirely inaccurate, or is quoted out of context thus rendering it irrelevant. Yes yes let's hate on the mean 'ol Bulgars for trying to preserve their identity in their own lands and save their own people, women, and children from the brutal punishments of Serb and Greek invaders. learn to debate properly or STFU idiot.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2011 8:48:15 GMT -5
There's nothing to debate friend. We know what the sources say. Practically all sources concur that Macedonians identified as ethnic Bulgarians until recently.
It would be a debatable topic if sources were split on the matter, say 50/50.. however, the numbers are very different.
More than 90%, or maybe even more than 95% support the Bulgarian perspective. The remaining 5% are split between the Macedonians being Serbs or Macedonians being some independent Slavic group, but still a group that is closer to Bulgarians than to Serbs.
These are findings that have taken centuries to record. They've been recorded by sources from all over Europe, and North America.
There is physical proof of all this, pictures, Macedono-Bulgarian churches in foreign lands, all businesses (mainly restaurants and food stores) that were opened by 'Macedonian' immigrants to North America in the early 1900's have been named either as Bulgarian or Macedono-Bulgarian, the historic Bulgarian identity of the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all is indisputably Bulgarian and so on and so forth.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2011 9:05:44 GMT -5
There's nothing to debate friend. We know what the sources say. Practically all sources concur that Macedonians identified as ethnic Bulgarians until recently. It would be a debatable topic if sources were split on the matter, say 50/50.. however, the numbers are very different. More than 90%, or maybe even more than 95% support the Bulgarian perspective. The remaining 5% are split between the Macedonians being Serbs or Macedonians being some independent Slavic group, but still a group that is closer to Bulgarians than to Serbs. These are findings that have taken centuries to record. They've been recorded by sources from all over Europe, and North America. There is physical proof of all this, pictures, Macedono-Bulgarian churches in foreign lands, all businesses (mainly restaurants and food stores) that were opened by 'Macedonian' immigrants to North America in the early 1900's have been named either as Bulgarian or Macedono-Bulgarian, the historic Bulgarian identity of the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all is indisputably Bulgarian and so on and so forth. stupid idiot, i gave my opinion about any potential greekification of makedonia, and mind you, i am the sole person on earth which so much knowledge from the both worlds. Besides that, in this anti-slav frenzy, anti-bulgarian frenzy, i am the sole greek which shows sympathy and true understanding for neighboring slavic nations. Your "brave" decision to attack me, (on no grounds) shows what a pitiful, anti-slav, anti-bulgarian, anti-makedonian snake that you are....
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2011 9:16:05 GMT -5
I don't like your labels, 'anti-this', 'anti-that'.. they're stupid. I've expressed this before, the only thing that I want is for the truth to be out in the open, and not some political re-interpretation of it. That's all.
As for the rest, people have the right to a choice.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 14, 2011 19:08:05 GMT -5
There's nothing to debate friend. We know what the sources say. Practically all sources concur that Macedonians identified as ethnic Bulgarians until recently. It would be a debatable topic if sources were split on the matter, say 50/50.. however, the numbers are very different. More than 90%, or maybe even more than 95% support the Bulgarian perspective. The remaining 5% are split between the Macedonians being Serbs or Macedonians being some independent Slavic group, but still a group that is closer to Bulgarians than to Serbs. These are findings that have taken centuries to record. They've been recorded by sources from all over Europe, and North America. There is physical proof of all this, pictures, Macedono-Bulgarian churches in foreign lands, all businesses (mainly restaurants and food stores) that were opened by 'Macedonian' immigrants to North America in the early 1900's have been named either as Bulgarian or Macedono-Bulgarian, the historic Bulgarian identity of the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all is indisputably Bulgarian and so on and so forth. stupid idiot, i gave my opinion about any potential greekification of makedonia, and mind you, i am the sole person on earth which so much knowledge from the both worlds. Besides that, in this anti-slav frenzy, anti-bulgarian frenzy, i am the sole greek which shows sympathy and true understanding for neighboring slavic nations. Your "brave" decision to attack me, (on no grounds) shows what a pitiful, anti-slav, anti-bulgarian, anti-makedonian snake that you are.... bravo for your stand against greek oppression of ethnic macedonians in greece!
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 14, 2011 22:14:54 GMT -5
"Novi bro, do you understand that the exodus of Serbs that is happening now in Kosovo.... started MUCH earlier and MUCH more south???" Brate, in Vardar for instance, the serbs were partially Bulgarianised, this Bulgariasation lead to what we have today .......that is why l said to Chento that l ever so rarely post anything beyond 1912. Pyrro, take Albania for instance, the Montenegrins went from Montengrins to muslim slavs, then from muslim slavs into Albanian Gheg ethnos (similarly happened to Kosovo and vardar).
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 14, 2011 22:36:04 GMT -5
OK Novi, I know you blame the Exarchate for all the ills of the world, so I'll give you some quotes prior to the Exarchate;
THE HUNGARIAN DUKE ARPADIAN ATTACKS THE MACEDONIANS After 896 AD
According to the anonymous Hungarian chronicler
(The Hungarian military commanders) returned to Arpadian and sent emissaries to receive permission to go to Greece in order to subjugate all of Macedonia, from the Danube to the Black Sea . (Arpadian permitted them) to go to Greece and to conquer the land ... After several days, Zuard and Kaduze with their entire army sailed across the Danube and captured the fortification of Beron. Then they headed for the fortress of Serdika. Hearing of this, the Macedonian and the Bulgarian inhabitants were frightened at their appearance. Then all the inhabitants of this country sent emissaries with many gifts for them to subjugate their country and to give their sons as hostages. ..
Anonymi (P. Magistri) Gesta Hungarorum, Scriptores rerum Hungaricarum tempore ducem regumque stirpis Arpadinae Gestarum. Vol. I (Edendo operi praefuit E. Szentpetery) Budapestini 1937, p. 91, 92.
A MAN LIVING IN THE OHRID REGION, IVAN IERAKAR, INTRODUCES HIMSELF AS A MACEDONIAN Beginning of the XIIIth century
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archbishopric (Ivan Ierakar) by birth Macedonian.
J. Pitra, Analecta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.
A NOTE BY TEACHER GORGI MAKEDONSKI ABOUT HIS ORIGINS 1846
May everybody know when the peasants of my native village of Radibus, Krivorechka Palanka, hired me as a teacher in our village school as well as at Rankovce and Krivi Kamen, for 1800 groschen a year. I was born of my father, priest Dimitrija, and mother Varskija as the seventh of twelve children, five boys and seven girls. I learnt the Slav alphabet from my father Makedonski, who calls himself so because we are Macedonians, and not Greeks, and his father was called Josif, a priest, and his grandfather, Stoiman, a priest. I also took the surname of Makedonski, and not that of my father or grandfather, so that it may be known that we are Slavs from Macedonia. On the day of the Great Holy Mother of God, 1846.
Giorgija Makedonski
Bogosluzhbena kniga “Opshti minej” – vo tsrkvata V S. Radibush, Krivopalanechko. Posledna nepaginirana stranitsa.
And one from after the Exarchate;
Allen Upward and his visit to Macedonia in 1907/1908. Here is what he had to say;
"...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in Macedonia the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was Macedonian, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike".
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