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Post by odel on Oct 5, 2011 10:01:11 GMT -5
It needs to be understood that Croats/Bosnians, for a very long time dedicated they're existence to bash Serb culture. It's the only way their identity has any ground. Another unsubstantiated claim from you, Uz. You're really coming off as very ignorant, and it doesn't make it much better that you speak even though you obviously know nothing. The Croat ethnicity has existed for a longer time than the Serbs have been in the Balkans and it certainly didn't develop out of the Serb ethnicity. Bosnians aren't really Muslim Serbs either, the Slavs were Catholic firstly and not Orthodox in Bosnia and a big reason Orthodoxy gained foothold in Bosnia was due to the assimilation of a great number of Vlachs. There's reason to believe that the Slavs in Bosnia are of Croat origin rather than Serb, there's actually very little reason to believe that the Bosnians are Serbs. It's mostly based on the very erroneous assumption that every South-Slavs is really just a Serb in denial. As mentioned, they were Catholic. However there's also the term used for the first rulers in Bosnia was 'ban' and the regions which they ruled over 'banat' which was only used by Croats. The word 'ban' is either of Avar, Thracian or PIE origin. Also, Orthodoxy spread in Bosnia later on and that was mostly due to Vlachs who later on were assimilated. Catholicism however wasn't seen as favourably by the Ottomans as Orthodoxy was which meant that it was harder for the Catholics to maintain a foothold in Bosnia. It's more reliable however to say that they're simply just Slavs in Bosnia, neither Serb or Croat but Bosnian. They identified with the Slavic ethnicity that they shared religion with and this meant that the Muslim Bosniaks developed an identity of their own or rather maintained the old one (as simply Bosnian Slavs) as they couldn't identify with either Catholic Croats or Orthodox Serbs and there wasn't any other large Muslim Slavic nation around.
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Post by odel on Oct 5, 2011 10:18:23 GMT -5
A lot of that had to do with the Italian occupation. It had nothing to do with the Italian occupation and just to enlighten you a bit, the Germans took control of Albania later on. The reason is that the Jews were protected by giving them false non-Jewish identities so that they could blend in, and because the people themselves were willing to protect them even with their own life due to our code of honour and hospitality. Most of the Jews in Albania went to Israel after WW2, only a few stayed. Also, Germany probably has a lot more Jews than Albania and Serbia put together, that doesn't really mean that the Germans were nice to the Jews in WW2 though. And the same goes for Serbia, that it has more Jews than Albania today doesn't mean much. Let's not forget that Serbia was the first state declared to be Judenfrei and Belgrade the only larger city in Europe to become Judenfrei. books.google.com/books?id=Fz1PW_wnHYMC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Post by uz on Oct 7, 2011 15:23:43 GMT -5
^
First off Cro's, Bos's and Serbs all come from the same tree, given that they are differences but how can they be different? The link is clear with each and the other only inapparent to the blind.
Secondly, the Italians who occupied Albania were not a savagery towards the Albs as some fascists were to others. Many Soldiers spent time in villages positively, the purpose was manily "pressence" not occupance.
My point about Serbia having more Jews than Albania now is rather a fact and not an attack. The official "status" of being Judenfrei was not the reality on Serbian grounds. There are many accounts of Jews being protected throughout. My grandmother at the time in her late 20's assisted in smuggling Jewish families accross borders so they wouldn't be caught. Back and forth from Serbia to Bosnia was apparently a famous route to repeat to remain safe, and to certain degree, Slovenia.
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Post by odel on Oct 7, 2011 17:17:50 GMT -5
^ First off Cro's, Bos's and Serbs all come from the same tree, given that they are differences but how can they be different? The link is clear with each and the other only inapparent to the blind. That they're similar doesn't mean that they're all Serbs. The reason that they're similar is because of the great contact they have had. What would you know about the Italian occupation of Albania? It was definitely an occupation and the reason for the presence of Italian and German troops wasn't to chit chat with villagers and "spend their time positively". It doesn't matter though, Albanians protected their Jews in WW2, Serbians didn't. " Ultimately, about 15,000 Jews perished in Nedic's Serbia. This was 94 percent of the area covering Serbia proper (11240), the formerly Hungarian region of Banat (3800), the Sandzak region (260), and Kosovo (210). Most of these people had been exterminated by the middle of 1942. Among those who remained were several hundred, mainly women and children, who had been hiding in rural Serbian villages and some who joined the Partisans or had otherwise escaped. However, between 1942 and September, 1944, just before the Germans withdrew from Belgrade at least 455 of the Jews in hiding were captured Ljoticites, Nedicites or Chetniks, who received reward money for every Jew found. These Jews were transported to Banjica and killed upon arrival. But long before this, in August, 1942, Harald Turner proudly had announced that the "Jewish question" in Serbia had been resolved, and Serbia had become the first country in Europe declared Judenfrei"books.google.com/books?id=Fz1PW_wnHYMC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=falseThat should say just about it.
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Post by uz on Oct 7, 2011 17:20:28 GMT -5
That ^ can say whatever else you'd like it to say, the experiences on the matter are very different. And I'm not just talking about my families' experience.
I know a lot about the italian fascists during WWII, it is very interesting. Something you should look into.
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Post by uz on Oct 7, 2011 17:38:16 GMT -5
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Post by uz on Oct 7, 2011 17:58:14 GMT -5
Serbia was occupied by Germany in 1941. It was established collaborator Government of National Salvation led by General Milan Nediæ. The internal affairs of the Serbian occupied territory were moderated by German racial laws, that were introduced in all occupied territories with immediate effects on Jews, Roma people, as well as imprisonment of left oriented persons. The two major concentration camps in Serbia were Sajmište and Banjica. Of 40,000 Serbian Jews around one half lost their lives in Nazi concentration camps both in Serbia and the German Reich, where most of the captured Serbian Jews were transferred. Under Nediæ, Belgrade was declared to be Judenfrei in 1942. Serbs were also victims of the Nazi regime, and most of the victims in Banjica were Serbian. Nazis had a policy of killing 100 Serbs for each killed German soldier and 50 killed Serbs for each wounded, resulting in widespread taking of hostages and executions such as the Kragujevac massacre. Despite these repressive measures, Serbs rebelled, and most Serbs saw Jews as their fellow victims in World War II, dying together in Nazi repression and genocide in Sajmište, Banjica and Jasenovac. Legends about Serbs saving the Jews in World War II are widespread in Serbia, and 152 Serbs[citation needed] have been honored as righteous Gentiles.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_HolocaustRead throughout the whole page and see the involvement Serbs really had with the Nazis.
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Post by odel on Oct 7, 2011 18:00:27 GMT -5
That ^ can say whatever else you'd like it to say, the experiences on the matter are very different. And I'm not just talking about my families' experience. Oh, so you're saying that individual experiences are more important than statistics? And you're completely ignoring that 94% of the Jewish population in Serbia and Serbian controlled areas were killed? You're either stupid, in denial or a mix of both; I'd say it's a mixture of both. I was asking you about the Italian occupation of Albania, from what I get, you know nothing about that. I want to know more about the Italian troops spending their time positively with villagers as well Lolz, using a forum as a source! And then again it comes from some unreliable page. You're such an idiot, it's incredible.
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Post by uz on Oct 7, 2011 18:13:50 GMT -5
So where did all the Jews from Albania go, only 250 left?
They're many accounts of Italian soldiers treating Albanians with diginity. Many Italias were feeding Albs from their own platess. I thought every Albanian knew this, theres even a documentary about this specifically I saw back in High school god-knows when... It's an old flick made during the 80's but I can try to find it so maybe you can feel a bit more nostalgic towards the italians.
ps; Read the other links you moron, maybe you will learn something about what the Albanians did to the Jews in Kosovo.
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Serbs and Jews were equals according to Nazis. Why do you think Serbs and Jews were in the same camps across Europe?
Many Serbs were in the same boat as the many Jews who died in Serbia. You all seem to forget this through you willingness to sumbit to ignorance. Sure there was Serbs who volunteered with the Germans, but how about the Albs massacering Serbs and Jews in Kosovo? Every nation had traitors alligning themsevels with the enemy.
How many Jews left in Kosovo today, 50?
Awaiting source....
My counter-argument is awaiting.
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Post by odel on Oct 8, 2011 10:43:00 GMT -5
So where did all the Jews from Albania go, only 250 left? Most of them went back to Israel, I mentioned that earlier. And lol at you implying that since there's fewer Jews in Albania today than there is in Serbia today that must mean that the treatment of Jews in Serbia must have been better than the treatment of Jews in Albania For f**ks sake... prove it! You're coming with ridiculous statements like: And This without anything to actually prove it. Oh, you mean the one that refers to the KLA as "Islamo-fascist scumbags", that doesn't seem like the most unbiased source. Also, all the writer does is to write propaganda with nothing to back it up like trustworthy sources or anything like that. Instead he just goes on ranting about the Islamo-fascist scumbags KLA, political correctness and etc, but nothing about what the KLA/Albanians did to the Jews! Just speculation about what these Islamo-fascist scumbags would do to the Jews. The writer also says this: " Time for the Serbs to carpet bomb the terrorists in Kosovo and put the criminal KLA terrorist leaders before a firing squad for their crimes against humanity." He's actually referring to all Albanians as terrorists and he calls for a carpet bombing of them all! More rants: " The bottom line is this. Thanks to the leftist sellout an self-hating Jews, Bill Clinton, and NATO, Jews are among the victims of an ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo. When it came to a Holocaust museum even comparing the Serbs to the Nazis [Holocaust museums are starting to be taken over by left-wing sellout Jews], Jared Israel says this:" This guy is a nutcase. You're using sources that don't tell s**t about anything the Albanians have done to the Jews, and which are obviously from very disturbed persons and you're calling me a moron? Great... No they weren't, the Serbs were above the Jews; that's why they let you take care of the killing of Jews Oh f**k off, there was no massacring of Serbs and Jews in Kosova from the Albanian side before you prove it with some hard evidence and not some s**tty blogs. I don't know and it doesn't matter how many there are today as it doesn't imply anything. Germany has the 3rd largest population of Jews in Europe, maybe the Nazis weren't so bad to the Jews after all? This is the third time I'm posting this: books.google.com/books?id=Fz1PW_wnHYMC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=falseYou know what that is? A real source, it's a book with referrences, sources and everything and not some s**tty blog. And you were calling me a moron? I have posted that three times now, you have yet to notice it even though it was apparantly there. Face it, you're at least borderline retarded.
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Post by najpos on Oct 19, 2011 3:18:41 GMT -5
Bump.
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Post by najpos on Oct 28, 2011 3:14:25 GMT -5
Bump. Since you were making such unbased claims about the situation in Albania in WW2, I'm going to post a source for you about the situation in Albania during WW2. Maybe you will learn something, heck, maybe you'll finally read something from a book? "For six months approximately 25,000 battle-hardened Albanian veterans pursued the Nazis through the wintry Yugoslavian alps, about 350 of them loosing their lives there. Their purpose was not only to assist the Yugoslavs, but also avenge the wrongs done to their families and homeland. Wartime losses were estimated at 28,000 killed or missing. The state became responsible for an estimated 104,000 widows, orphans and destitute elderly (Dielli 11 June 1947, 2)."
"Like much of Europe, Albania suffered staggering wartime devastation. The country was a heap of ruins. The International Center for Relief to Civilian Populations, with headquarters at Geneva, reported that "Albania is one of the most severely devastated countries of Europe (ibid)". From their survey we have the following facts. The housing losses were "catastrophic". More than 60,000 houses had been destroyed, many villages wiped out. One tenth of the population was literally homeless. Agricultural production was extremely low due to a drought, also the lack of seed, implements and manpower. Fruit trees and vines had been used for firewood. Two million sheeps and goats and 100,000 cattle had been requisitioned by the invaders, besides horses and mules. Milk for babies and children were seldoml obtainable. Foodstuffs were principally those brought in by international relief organizations. With no textile industry functioning, clothing, bedding, blankets and bandages were lacking, as were shoes. Malaria affected about 80 percent of those in the more populous coastal plains, tubercolosis about 20 percent of the total population. Infant morality varied from 25 to 40 percent according to the region under study. Most children suffered from malnutrition. Hospitals were few and inadequate and "lacked everything". Operations had to be performed without anesthetic . Transport without railway or waterway was "particularly thorny", all bridges having been destroyed, roads greatly damaged, trucks and buses lacking. In brief, Albania was "reduced to terrifying distresses"."Reconstruction of the country must begin at zero." The United Nations of Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA) mission in Albania reported that nothing of value was left anywhere in the country. General Lowell Rooks, general director of UNRRA, had an audience with Enver Hoxha on 9 April 1947, and reported,
From personal observations which I made in different countries, the most terrible situation is in Albania. In the discussions I had with General Hoxha, I told him frankly that there is no hope UNRRA can bring food to Albania before the harvest. He begged me to lay the need of Albania before every organization that might help. He expressed gratitude towards America for the help received up to the present (Dielli 28 May 1947, 1-2).
One Month later, on 21 May, after visiting Greece, Yugoslavia, Austria, Poland, Czechoslovakia and parts of Russia, Rooks declared again "Of all the places in Europe I have visited, in Albania I saw with my own eyes worse hunger conditions than anywhere else (ibid)"."Page 426-427: books.google.nl/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Albanians+jaques#v=onepage&q&f=falseAlso, I want a part of this thread to be removed from this thread and put in one of the other forums as a thread of its own, preferably the Albania forum. This because it has nothing to do with the thread which was originally meant to provoke in a low-brow manner.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Nov 2, 2011 16:23:18 GMT -5
As requested by Najpos , new topic has been open.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Nov 2, 2011 16:27:33 GMT -5
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Nov 2, 2011 17:53:55 GMT -5
Albanians Who Saved Jews During WWII Honored In PristinaPRISTINA -- A ceremony honoring the Albanian concept of "besa" and those Albanians who saved Jews from Nazi persecution has been held in Pristina, RFE/RL's Balkan Service reports. The event on October 7 was marked by the opening of the photo exhibit "Besa: Albanians Who Saved Jews During World War II," by American photographer Norman Gershman, at the Kosovo Art Gallery in Pristina. Besa means "keeping your promise" and taking care of those in need, even under difficult circumstances. It is the backbone of Albanian culture and at the heart of Albanians' code of honor. The exhibition displays some 70 photos that profile Albanians from both Albania and Kosovo who hosted, protected, and otherwise helped Jews during World War II, when more than 2,000 were saved from the Nazis. Gershman said "besa" is at the center of his work. He told RFE/RL he studied the concept and traveled extensively for more than four years in Albania and Kosovo so he could publicize the untold story of Jewish survival during Nazi occupation in that part of Europe. "To collect these photographs and the moving stories behind them, [Gershman] met with family members who remain and who bear witness to these acts of 'besa,' those who remember honoring your beautiful tradition of protecting and caring for guests as if they were their own children," said Michael Murphy, a diplomat from the U.S. Embassy in Kosovo. "Without Mr. Gershman and others [here tonight] these stories may well have remained hidden as they did for so many years behind the communist curtain in Albania and Yugoslavia." Murphy added that the Albanians who saved the Jews "stood up to defend the innocent and to do what was right and what was just despite the risks." Leke Rezniqi, whose family is one of those who hosted and saved Jews during World War II, said that "Albanians in Kosovo helped Jews to reach the promised land, as they called Albania during World War II." The Rezniqi family is honored for its actions in Jerusalem's Yad Vashem museum on the Holocaust. The Rezniqis helped more than 40 Jewish families in the Kosovar town of Decan during the war. The Jews saved by the Rezniqis were from other parts of Yugoslavia and other European countries. Albania is one of the few countries in Europe in which the number of Jews at the end of World War II -- more than 2,000 -- was higher than the pre-war period, when there were about 200 Jews. www.rferl.org/content/Albanians_Who_Saved_Jews_During_WWII_Honored_In_Pristina/2186302.html
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Nov 2, 2011 17:56:12 GMT -5
Besa : A code of honorIn 1934, Herman Bernstein, the United States Ambassador to Albania, wrote: “There is no trace of any discrimination against Jews in Albania, because Albania happens to be one of the rare lands in Europe today where religious prejudice and hate do not exist, even though Albanians themselves are divided into three faiths.” Albania, a small and mountainous country on the southeast coast of the Balkan peninsula, was home to a population of 803,000. Of those only two hundred were Jews. After Hitler’s rise to power in 1933, many Jews found refuge in Albania. No accurate figures exist regarding their number; however, different sources estimate that 600-1,800 Jewish refugees entered that country from Germany, Austria, Serbia, Greece and Yugoslavia, in the hope to continue on to the Land of Israel or other places of refuge. Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps. The remarkable assistance afforded to the Jews was grounded in Besa, a code of honor, which still today serves as the highest ethical code in the country. Besa, means literally “to keep the promise.” One who acts according to Besa is someone who keeps his word, someone to whom one can trust one’s life and the lives of one’s family. Apparently this code sprouted from the Muslim faith as interpreted by the Albanians. The help afforded to Jews and non-Jews alike should be understood as a matter of national honor. The Albanians went out of their way to provide assistance; moreover, they competed with each other for the privilege of saving Jews. These acts originated from compassion, loving-kindness and a desire to help those in need, even those of another faith or origin. Albania, the only European country with a Muslim majority, succeeded in the place where other European nations failed. Almost all Jews living within Albanian borders during the German occupation, those of Albanian origin and refugees alike, were saved, except members of a single family. Impressively, there were more Jews in Albania at the end of the war than beforehand. www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/besa/introduction.asp
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