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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 14:49:22 GMT -5
I ran into a theory composed by Serbian in dna-forums.org. This individual uses the username Conte in that site. I'll post his material in individual posts. He traced Serbs origin using haplogrpoup I2a1b1 Dinaric South. None of this material is mine. I'll start with the visual.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 14:52:02 GMT -5
Serbs as a "natione" a first mentioned as Surbi living between Elbe and Saale in nowadayas German province of Saxony by Fredegar in 7th century He (Dervan, serbian leader) is mentioned by Fredegar in his Latin chronicle as dux gente Surbiorum que ex genere Sclavinorum. Next mentioning of Serbs was Einhard in Anales Regni Francorum in 9th century which with same name Sorabos designate both the Serbs in Saxonia and the Serbs in Dalmatia. [*816] DCCCXVI. Hieme transacta Saxones et orientales Franci expeditionem in Sorabos Sclavos [822] DCCCXXII. Item in parte orientali Saxoniae, quae Sorabo*rum finibus contigua est, [822] DCCCXXII. ad cuius adventum Liudewitus Siscia civitate relicta ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem optinere dicitur, So for Einhard in 822. Serbs are nation which held a great part of province of Dalmatia, and the same Sorabos lived in Saxonia. This is how Constantine Porfirogenitus in his work De administrando imperio from 9th century describes migration of the Serbs from north to south in 7th century: "The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking a moiety of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination."... ..."Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then governing Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in."... ..."And since what is now Rascia (Serbia) and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Trebounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians."... ..."And since Bulgaria was beneath the dominion of the Romans * * * when, therefore, that same Serbian prince died who had claimed the emperor's protection, his son ruled in succession, and thereafter his grandson, and in like manner the succeeding princes from his family"... So the Serbs namely settled regions of Serbia, Pagania, Zachlumia and Trebounia. That region is as follows: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Map_of_the_Western_Balkans_around_814_AD.png [/img] ====== I would try to paste some important posts from deleted topic. Recently I've tried to make a map of I2a1b1 Dinaric South haplogroup. I used only those haplotypes which were tested on DYS448 with the value 19 or lower and only those haplotypes where tested individuals gave remarks about family place of origin. There was no so plenty haplotypes which could pass this two conditions. And the result was as follow. The map clearly shows south slavic highest concetration, but also a few other places of high concetration like: border region of Poland and Slovakia (Malopolskoe voivodeship and Presov county), region of Saxonia (between Elbe and Saale) and strange grouping around northwestern Belarus and northeastern Poland. In the middle Europe it is clear that Dinaric South correspond with Prague archeological culture. I would try to elaborate why I think that some members (except Polish, Slovak, Rusyn clade) of Dinaric South should be assigned to the people called Serbs.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 14:55:54 GMT -5
It is obviuous from the map of Dinaric South that core region of that haplogroup on Balkan is exactly the place where Serbs were settled in middle ages. Region between Elbe and Saale is also hotspot(the current Germans living there), and Serbs according to sources also(once) lived there.
It is worth of mentioning thet nowadays Lusatian Serbs in Germany are probably not descendants of ancient Serbs, because Serbs lived and were settled between Elbe and Saale and it is west of the region of nowadays Lusatia where Sorbs lived. River Elbe was a border between Slavs (Prague Korchak culture) and Wends (SukowDzedzice culture) so the Wends of Lusatia (Milcans and Lusitans) adopted the Serbian name because they probably very early became a part of Serbian tribal union. Most of those ancient Serbs in Saxonia were germanized and thats why is a Dinaric South is also presented in Germans in significant number.
So, I don't believe that whole Dinaric South is of Serbian origin, but I believe that Serbs brought Dinaric South haplotypes on Balkan.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 14:57:19 GMT -5
Thereis few reasons why ancient Croats can not be included in story about I2a1b1 Dinarci South. And these are: 1. White Croatia on the north is considereded to be placed in northeastern Bohemia and Silesia (extended to what is now Krakow) where I2a1b1 South is quite low, actually I could't find any South haplotype there. SEcond region where Croats as a eastern slavic nation are documented is western Ukraine on the slope of Carpathians where also I2a1b1 South is absent. 2. On the Balkans, Croats were setlled between river Cetina in Dalmatia to city of Labin in Istria. After Turkic Otoman invasion they moved westward (not eastword as you said). Island of Krk was a rare teritory which from middle ages till nowadays was inhabited by Croats, even the oldest Croatian medieval text was made on that island -Baska tablet . And what tell us genetical study on island Krk- highest percent of haplogroup R1a1 in ex Yugoslavia 38% and low I2a1b1 comparing to eastward parts of Dalmatia. 3. I have collection of about 200 ex-yugoslav haplotypes. It is very obvious from that database that genuine Croats (Croats which are not coming from Bosnia, Herzegovina) are not I2a1b1 South. They are mostly R1a1 with some R1b. Croat group called Bunjevci (originally from Herzegovina region) is predominantly I2a1b1 Dinaric South, but their croat origin is very disputable. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci4. I2a1b1 South is predominant haplogroup in eastern Herzegovina, western Montenegro, southwestern Serbia where Croats never lived nor in the middle ages nor later
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 14:58:45 GMT -5
I was trying to find something about origins of one group of Polish members of Dinaric South. It is second most compact group after those in Serbia. The results were quite interesting. The tested individuals from Poland which belong to Dinaric South are: Losiewicz- herb Dolega Sienicki- herb Lubicz Czaplicki- herb Lubicz Kulczycki- herb Krzywda Herman- herb Pobog It is actually group in the northeastern part of Poland with quite common haplotypes. According to Polish clan system every clan has its herb or coat of arms. Those families have herbs I write beside their names.This the pictures of those herbs. Pobog maciejmazur.cba.pl/mazurowie/images/pobog.jpgDolega www.numericana.com/arms/dolega1.gifLubicz upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Herb_Lubicz1.jpgKrzywda jankowscyrodzina.republika.pl/foto%5Ckrzywda.jpgAs you can notice all this herbs are very similar. The reason is very simple, all are derived from one herb and one clan, clan Pobog. Clans Lubicz and Dolega derived from clan Pobog, and clan Krzywda derived from clan Lubicz. Clan Pobog The chronicles of the region of Poland, though sometimes shrouded by the mists of time reveal the ancient origins of the Pobog Clan. System was associated with ancient Slavonic Family's Community's Structure and Sarmatian Family System. In the struggles for control over agricultural soil, the feudal clan system evolved as the best defense against hordes of invaders sweeping in from the east and west over the countries. In all probability the name of Pobóg was formed from the proclamation Pobodze, call „wishing" in old Polish Po Bodze (may God keep you in His care). In oldest judicial records it is found in that form precisely. Proclamation Pobóg appear in family in 16th century. Other historians claim that the name Pobóg derived from the name of this Bug River. In this statement Pobóg means: after Bug. They placed the Pobóg clan's ancient territory around the river Bug in North-East Malopolska (Lesser Poland). Clan Lubicz The Lubicz coat of arms goes back to the Middle Ages, when the army of King Kazimierz had been ambushed by a powerful force of pagan Prussians. A knight named Lubicz (bearing the Pobóg coat of arms) led a troop of his own soldiers against the enemy with such ferocity that he sent them fleeing for safety. In recognition of his splendid service, Kazimierz rewarded him with numerous possessions. He also added another cavalier’s cross to his Pobóg crest, which depicted a standing golden horseshoe topped with a cavalier’s cross on a blue shield, removed the hound from the crest, and renamed the modified coat of arms after the brave knight. Clan Dolega Some state that the origin of the coat of arms originated in the war of the King Boleslaw Krzywousty (1102–1139) against Prussia. A knight Doùæga of the coat of arms Pobog shot an arrow that killed the Prussian leader. This led to the people of Poland to rise up to attack. As a reward Doùæga received the arrow to its coat of arms Pobog, and the new coat of arms was called after him. Clan Krzywda This coat of arms is said to have originated as an abatement of the Lubicz. It is said that one of two (or three) brothers of the Lubicz clan did wrong (krzywda) to the other with respect to his portion of their inheritance, and as a result half of one cross was taken from his coat of arms and the new coat of arms was called Krzwyda (which translates from Polish as "injustice", "greif"). So, we have families with common South haplotypes, belonging to the same ancestral clan Pobog. In the official biography of one of the famous members of Lubicz clan, Polish-Lithuanian writer Oscar Miloð I found this story about his origins: "Oscar Vladislas de Lubicz Milosz (Oskaras Milaðius is the Lithuanian spelling of his name) was born May 28, 1877, on the estate of Èerëja, on the eastern outskirts of the country known (before it was divided and occupied by Russia and Prussia at the end of the eighteenth century) as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Today, this part of Lithuania belongs to Belorussia. His father was a Lithuanian-Polish nobleman, but his ancestors were not native to the region. According to family legend, they had emigrated there from the very heart of ethnic Lithuania, on the Baltic peninsula. The Miloszes were refugees in this area too. Several centuries earlier, fleeing German pressure, they had left behind their estates in the territory of the Lusatian Serbs, near Frankfurt an der Oder. While Milaðius derived his lineage from an aristocratic Serbian family of the Middle Ages, he nonetheless stressed his "Lithuanianness. " Milaðius felt a great affiliation to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, whose noblemen his paternal grandparents became. (Kubilius, 1981)." Is it just a coincidance that one family of Lubicz clan (with Dinaric South members) mention its Serbian roots (tribe with most Dinaric South members)? Maybe it is concidence.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 19, 2012 15:03:20 GMT -5
I think this theory is very solid, and I personally enjoyed reading this research done by one individual and a computer.
If this theory is right, and to me it seems solid. This would mean Croats with this haplogroup are former Serbs., ASame would apply to Bosnians.
For Pyrros this would be terrible news because almost all I2a1b1 individuals from greece are I2a1b1 Dinaric North not South. Meaning they decent from non-Serbian Slavs.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 19, 2012 22:19:55 GMT -5
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 19, 2012 22:28:32 GMT -5
After reading through all of this where is there definitive evidence that the haplogroup is 'Serb.' The populations of today that carry this marker are mostly non-Serbs while the actual Serbs carry this the least. It shows that Southern Croatians , most Bosnian Croats, about half the Bosniaks , and a handful of Bosnian Serbs all share a common origin. Of all the populations present today , the Serbs are the least included.
What it tells me is that the Dinaric origin is firmly nestled among a broad population of Croats both in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. 'Old' Bosniaks share this same origin and a few Serbs do as well. Likewise it can also be said that the majority of Bosnian and Croatian Serbs are newer settlers than the old Croats while the Bosniaks are fairly mixed due to intermingling and Islamification in the medieval period.
The northern Croats or Pannonian Croats were random Slavs ( like the Slovenes) assimilated into the Croatian body due to Croatian rule of those territories over the centuries.
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 20, 2012 0:06:10 GMT -5
All this is BS. The only thing that counts is brain and mentality. My sister is 100% different than me. Who will carry the ancestral phenotype and who will carry the ancestral brain/mentality are two totally irrelevant "experiments".
Todays anti-serb ustasas, in croatia, (as the map shows) is a prime example.
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Post by Moe Lester on Mar 20, 2012 3:15:14 GMT -5
Pyrros is right. If all people acted and thought like their ethnic brethren, then there wouldn't be political parties, wide range of music and different philosophies.
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Post by ulf on Mar 20, 2012 6:25:13 GMT -5
Cool find Babylon Enigma.
I definitively knew there was good presence of I2a1b1 Dinaric South in East Germany, Czech Republic and Slovakia but I didn't thought that a group of those people moved to Poland-Lithuania and later on played not small role in their nobility.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 20, 2012 6:51:47 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know how much we can rely on a map that was clearly scribbled on in microsoft paint. Take a look at this : vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/haplogroup_i2a1.gifThe most concentrated segment is in the beating heart of Croat country even back to medieval times. Among other places the Capathian range holds this marker. Look up Carpatho-Rusyn and their relationship to White Croats.
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Post by ulf on Mar 20, 2012 15:36:55 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know how much we can rely on a map that was clearly scribbled on in microsoft paint. Take a look at this : vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/haplogroup_i2a1.gifThe most concentrated segment is in the beating heart of Croat country even back to medieval times. Among other places the Capathian range holds this marker. Look up Carpatho-Rusyn and their relationship to White Croats. I know that map too. Point is there are Dinaric I2a1b1 south and north. The map Babylon Enigma post represent south type, where as your represent total I2a1b1 map
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 20, 2012 20:14:56 GMT -5
After reading through all of this where is there definitive evidence that the haplogroup is 'Serb.' The populations of today that carry this marker are mostly non-Serbs while the actual Serbs carry this the least. It shows that Southern Croatians , most Bosnian Croats, about half the Bosniaks , and a handful of Bosnian Serbs all share a common origin. Of all the populations present today , the Serbs are the least included. What it tells me is that the Dinaric origin is firmly nestled among a broad population of Croats both in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. 'Old' Bosniaks share this same origin and a few Serbs do as well. Likewise it can also be said that the majority of Bosnian and Croatian Serbs are newer settlers than the old Croats while the Bosniaks are fairly mixed due to intermingling and Islamification in the medieval period. The northern Croats or Pannonian Croats were random Slavs ( like the Slovenes) assimilated into the Croatian body due to Croatian rule of those territories over the centuries. Here what Conte wrote to Croats on dna-board which seems to be down this week. "I would like to give some statistics about map I posted. That also could be helpful for making some conclusions. There was 62 unique South haplotype which I could find, and this is ethnic background of tested individuals: Serb - 13- 21 % German - 10- 16 % Croat - 9- 14,5% Pole - 7- 11,3% Italian - 4- 6,5% Slovak- 4- 6,5% Czech - 3- 5 % Ukrainian- 2- 3,2% Russian- 2- 3,2% Hungarians- 2- 3,2% Bosnian muslim- 2- 3,2% Belorussian- 1- 1,6% Macedonian Slav- 1- 1,6% Bulgarian- 1- 1,6% Romanian- 1- 1,6% Considering this we can conclude that most tested Dinaric Souths are Serbs. From above: Slavic 45- 72,6 % Other 17- 27,4 % Considering this we can very surely conclude that ethnic background of this group is Slavic. South Slavic 26- 58% West Slavic 14- 31% East Slavic 5- 11% Considering this we can conclude that Souths are present mostly in West and South Slavic group. " I'm not going to go into the problem of sampling that was done with the Croatian study. Ultimately, more data will become available and this theory will likely be proven correct.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 20, 2012 20:19:43 GMT -5
All this is BS. The only thing that counts is brain and mentality. My sister is 100% different than me. Who will carry the ancestral phenotype and who will carry the ancestral brain/mentality are two totally irrelevant "experiments". Todays anti-serb ustasas, in croatia, (as the map shows) is a prime example. Yeah Pyrros, you're a real Serb, and true Serbs can bekicked out of the tribe by the hijackers. But it's good to know that Africans can mix and become Serbs with the right training and mentality.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 20, 2012 21:26:42 GMT -5
Become informed : vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdfI = Croats 71% , Bosniaks 43.5% , and Serbs ( not surprisingly the lowest) 30%. Back to reinterpreting history for Greater Serbia. Genetics isn't working for you.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 20, 2012 22:20:21 GMT -5
Outdated study with biased sampling of Serbian settlements. Just be patient Prijosen, with more time, there will be more and bigger samples.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 21, 2012 3:43:27 GMT -5
All this is BS. The only thing that counts is brain and mentality. My sister is 100% different than me. Who will carry the ancestral phenotype and who will carry the ancestral brain/mentality are two totally irrelevant "experiments". Todays anti-serb ustasas, in croatia, (as the map shows) is a prime example. Yeah Pyrros, you're a real Serb, and true Serbs can bekicked out of the tribe by the hijackers. But it's good to know that Africans can mix and become Serbs with the right training and mentality. dude.... stop it... you are painfully ignorant.... take a trip, a vacation, does the NAZI party allow meeting with non-blond ppl??? LMAO you fucking clown ...
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 21, 2012 9:50:41 GMT -5
Become informed : vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdfI = Bosnian HercegovinaCroats 71% , Bosniaks 43.5% , and Serbs ( not surprisingly the lowest) 30%. Back to reinterpreting history for Greater Serbia. Genetics isn't working for you. Fixed. Liar. Btw, Bosnian Croats form a distinct minority in the overall Croat ethnogenisis. A genetic study by an actual Croat even came to the conclusion that Croats cluster in two distinct genetic populaces. Babylon, what you may not know is that the genetic grouping of Croats also coincides exactly with the differences already noted in physical anthropology, as well as coinciding with the different language grouping of Croats (look into the Stokavian dialect). Now, what Prijosanin is claiming in this thread is that Croats from Hercegovina/Dalmatia are the original and true Croats whilst the much larger Pannonian majority are Croatianised random slavs. Now, this difference in genetics, language and physical anthropology between Croats simply does not exist between Serbs from Hercegovina/Bosnia/Montenegro(Dalmatia) to Serbs in Serbia proper anywhere near the extent it exists between Pannonian and Dalmatian Croats. Babylon, historically speaking there's also much more reason to believe that the Pannonian Croats were actually the original Croats. For instance their first written text was in the Chakavian text of the Pannonian Croats. Prijosanins trip is that he's discovered that he personally belongs to the I haplogroup & now he obviously tries to claim is as Croat as possible which is utterly ridiculous
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 21, 2012 9:58:43 GMT -5
^^^ priso is a funny little fabricator.
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