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Post by uz on Apr 23, 2012 21:48:33 GMT -5
What is mythical about the Illyrians? It's impossible to have a normal discussion with you people. Uz , as far as land grabbing and ethnic cleansing....haha don't even go there. The Illyrian connection to todays Albanians is what is mythical. Plus, what land have Serbs grabbed? If anything Serbs have lost, isn't that what you guys keep poking fun at us about?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 23, 2012 23:09:04 GMT -5
^ Exactly UZ, their saying of Serbia getting smaller like a Nokia phone, remember them all saying this
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Post by Shqipni13 on Apr 24, 2012 2:03:01 GMT -5
Yes the greater Serbia project has failed, but we are still aware of your aspirations.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 24, 2012 8:31:22 GMT -5
^ Don't talk too soon Shqipni
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Post by uz on Apr 24, 2012 16:39:39 GMT -5
here's an example in what I was saying regarding Nationalism and how Nationalism can unite as opose to divide. www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/serbian-ultra-nationalist-congratulates-france-s-le-pen_223261.htmlSerbian ultra-nationalist Vojislav Seselj has congratulated France's far-right leader Marine Le Pen on her surprise showing in the first round of presidential elections, his party said Tuesday.
Seselj, who is awaiting a verdict in his war crimes trial, said in a letter to Le Pen that her 18 percent score in the Sunday polls "shows that the anti-globalist forces are gaining strength," Seselj's Serbian Radical Party (SRS) said in a statement.--- Putting aside our specific opinions about Seselj and Le Pen, one can conclude that the biggest factor in global-relations, and in finding common ground is the love of ones' own country.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Apr 25, 2012 2:41:50 GMT -5
What is mythical about the Illyrians? It's impossible to have a normal discussion with you people. Uz , as far as land grabbing and ethnic cleansing....haha don't even go there. The Illyrian connection to todays Albanians is what is mythical. Plus, what land have Serbs grabbed? If anything Serbs have lost, isn't that what you guys keep poking fun at us about? well give that serbs don't even belong in the balcans then that pretty much entitles them to no land and makes them land grabbers
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Post by uz on Apr 25, 2012 13:08:59 GMT -5
here's an example in what I was saying regarding Nationalism and how Nationalism can unite as opose to divide. www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/serbian-ultra-nationalist-congratulates-france-s-le-pen_223261.htmlSerbian ultra-nationalist Vojislav Seselj has congratulated France's far-right leader Marine Le Pen on her surprise showing in the first round of presidential elections, his party said Tuesday.
Seselj, who is awaiting a verdict in his war crimes trial, said in a letter to Le Pen that her 18 percent score in the Sunday polls "shows that the anti-globalist forces are gaining strength," Seselj's Serbian Radical Party (SRS) said in a statement.--- Putting aside our specific opinions about Seselj and Le Pen, one can conclude that the biggest factor in global-relations, and in finding common ground is the love of ones' own country. Marine Le Pen's party played dirty during the war: the sent people to fight on Croatian side during the Serbian agression (to defend catholicism etc...). Then when Serbs started to fight with Boslims, they approched Seselj, while still fighting on the Croatian side in Croatia. Don't be stupid, don't be fool. You've missed my point completely. It's ok, it was expected.
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Post by uz on Apr 25, 2012 15:28:57 GMT -5
You've missed my point completely. It's ok, it was expected. I didn't miss your point, I was just telling you: be carefull. I think we're discussing two different things. I am talking about Nationalism and how nations of peoples' who are nationalist can work well with other nations' of peoples' who are nationalist. Do you not agree?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 25, 2012 18:02:45 GMT -5
"well give that serbs don't even belong in the balcans then that pretty much entitles them to no land and makes them land grabbers"
Albanians as a people were first mentioned in the Balkans at the 11TH CENTURY anything before this time is just MYTHS, FABLES, SPECULATIONS or THEORIES nothing set in stone, while Serbian FACTUAL EVIDENCE can be traced back to the 6TH CENTURY, this is 5 CENTURIES before any ALBANIAN was in the BALKANS or even recorded in the region.
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 25, 2012 19:11:16 GMT -5
"well give that serbs don't even belong in the balcans then that pretty much entitles them to no land and makes them land grabbers" Albanians as a people were first mentioned in the Balkans at the 11TH CENTURY anything before this time is just MYTHS, FABLES, SPECULATIONS or THEORIES nothing set in stone, while Serbian FACTUAL EVIDENCE can be traced back to the 6TH CENTURY, this is 5 CENTURIES before any ALBANIAN was in the BALKANS or even recorded in the region. Give it a rest fellas. Even if were true that Albanians came from some unknown mythical place into Balkan in the 11th century, we now live in the 21st century. Those 1000 years alone would make as native as do your 1500 years in Balkan. It's a really long time either way. Who do you think America belongs to now? To the native AmerIndians who have exclusively lived on the land for 15 000 years or to the Americans, the descendents of European invaders and black slaves, who first set foot in the last 400 years? And by the way, the Albanians are indeed autokton in Balkan, emerging in the 11th century as a synthesis of the earlier Balkan tribes and peoples. I know there is no single "magic bullet" that hits home for some of you fellas to accept this. But if you set nationalism aside and honestly look at the larger picture formed by all the available evidence (and the lack of evidence - which is a form of evidence in its own right) you would see it too as an inescapable conclusion. But I know it will never be good enough for you; you'll keep on trucking for Jesus and believing we are Arabs mixed with Normans, or Chechens or Caucasian Albanians, or the Turkish bashibozuk avantguarde who never returned to Turkey, etc, etc (so many beautiful theories, eh?). IMO, in this sense, you will always misjudge, misunderstand and under-estimate the Albanians.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 25, 2012 21:50:15 GMT -5
"Give it a rest fellas. Even if were true that Albanians came from some unknown mythical place into Balkan in the 11th century, we now live in the 21st century. Those 1000 years alone would make as native as do your 1500 years in Balkan. It's a really long time either way."
RD, l would like to give it a rest, but its something Albanians seem to rely on, a mythical glorious past that is ONLY JUST SPECULATION.
"And by the way, the Albanians are indeed autokton in Balkan, emerging in the 11th century as a synthesis of the earlier Balkan tribes and peoples. I know there is no single "magic bullet" that hits home for some of you fellas to accept this. But if you set nationalism aside and honestly look at the larger picture formed by all the available evidence (and the lack of evidence - which is a form of evidence in its own right) you would see it too as an inescapable conclusion."
How do you know that Albanians emerged from EARLIER 'Balkan' tribes? No one can even substantially conclude this RD, again its just SPECULATION. From a factual point of view, Slavs arrived during the 6th centuries, some SPECULATE this may have started earlier, in smaller numbers, during the 3 and 4th centuries because slavs were not UNKNOWN to the Byzantines during the 6th and 7th centuries as many were present in their ranks! However for Albanians, THERE IS NO SUCH INSTANCES, we begin to learn about them during the 11th century. There is a theory brought to us by Byzantines that Albanians came during the 11th century from Sicily as footsoliders to fight SERBS, in the Byzantine Serb war. The Byzantines lost this battle and these soliders pleded with the Serbs to give them mercy and were settled in the modern Shkumbini. This same theory also states that these same Albanians were brought to Sicily from the fringes of the Byzantine empire (EASTERN ANATOLIA) modern Amenia and Azerbaijan.
"Turkish bashibozuk"
Ah yes RD, its from this that modern Albanian historians base their claims to Serbian town of *Nis*. The Ottomans brought these Albanians as soliders to this town and were booted out by Serbs, these Bashibozuks fled to Kosovo and Metohija.
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 26, 2012 0:29:13 GMT -5
RD, l would like to give it a rest, but its something Albanians seem to rely on, a mythical glorious past that is ONLY JUST SPECULATION. ......From a factual point of view, Slavs arrived during the 6th centuries, some SPECULATE this may have started earlier, in smaller numbers, during the 3 and 4th centuries ....... However for Albanians, THERE IS NO SUCH INSTANCES, we begin to learn about them during the 11th century. There is a theory brought to us by Byzantines that Albanians came during the 11th century from Sicily as footsoliders to fight SERBS, in the Byzantine Serb war. The Byzantines lost this battle and these soliders pleded with the Serbs to give them mercy and were settled in the modern Shkumbini. This same theory also states that these same Albanians were brought to Sicily from the fringes of the Byzantine empire (EASTERN ANATOLIA) modern Amenia and Azerbaijan. ...... The distant past is just that, the distant past. Albanians love to build up theirs and Serbs enjoy tearing it down even more. However, that distant past belongs in the museum and should have no bearing on modern national and international policies. Modern national borders cannot and should not be drawn to reflect anyone’s wet dreams of ancient empires. Incidentally, the world (well, NATO and the US) did not come down on the Kosovar side because they thought they were helping “the Illyrians” take back their ancient land. So, proving or disproving that Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians does nothing for the case of Kosovo. Does it help to scream out at the top of your lungs “Albanians are Chechen scum, bloody Muslim marauders and filthy murderers”; if it has any value for anyone, by all means don’t let me stop you, may you find solace and consolation in that mantra. I personally don’t think that’s productive at all, and may be actually quite counter-productive. I must say again, I don’t want to push or pressure anyone into believing something that goes against their grain; we should all be free to make up our own minds – for better or worse. I have already said that I know of no single incontrovertible proof connecting Albanians to, shall we say, the Illyrians. At least there is nothing that will make everybody happy. I suspect even if this “missing link” were found and proved beyond a doubt, some of you (not singling out anyone) still wouldn’t shut up. You are right, we factually know that Slavs started arriving in large numbers during the 6th century, and it quite possible, indeed it is very near likely that they were trickling in into Balkan in smaller numbers during the 3rd and 4th centuries. No doubt about it. The arrival of a new people in Balkan has always been a violent and dramatic affair. We know about the battles fought, like the sieges of Thesalonikis in 614, the siege of Konstantinopolis in 626, there are records of the Peloponesus being completely over-run by Slavs. These events have left very clear historical and material records. It cannot be denied. We also know about the early Greek colonies, we know about Roman battles in and conquest of Illyria, the Romans built fortresses and roads (via Egnatia, etc), we know about Avar raids and Goth encampments, we know when the Ostrogoths and Vandals swept through, we know about slavo-bulgars reaching deep in southern Albania, we know when the Normans and Crusaders came and went, we know when the Ottoman Turks first appeared in Balkan, and so on. All these things have left clear, unmistakable historical records and material evidence, as changes in material culture, changes in lexicon, records of sieges and battles fought, etc, etc. These cannot be denied. The only exception to this, according to some of you, would be the arrival of the Albanians, in the 11th century no less. Except for the fact that Albanians finally rate a mention, we have no real record of their presumed arrival. There are no hints of place of origins, there are no intermediary stages or sites from origin to final destination, there are no records of numbers, there are no changes in material culture, there are no battles fought or sieges held, there are no mentions in diplomatic annals, and so on. All of a sudden, the historical, material, military and diplomatic record is quiet. Yet, Serbs insist on building an entire ethno-genesis for a nation based on a couple of lines from Attaleiates: 1038, 1042, 1078 Michael Attaleiates: The First Byzantine References“….Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...”I am not really interested here in hacking it out line by line to extract the meaning of the text. But I see nothing specific about who they are, where they came from and where they are going. If that is really all the proof you fellas have to bring to the table, I must say I am at a bit of a loss. I would only notice that it’s ironic you should say we are speculating on the Illyrian side, when you are very grossly speculating on two lines of text. It is a historical impossibility, and it is not borne out by any archaeological or historical evidence, that Albanians should have arrived from somewhere else and set up tent in Albania. How did we manage to possess the lands held by the super-empires of the time, the Greeks, Slavs, Romans and Byzantines? – this is prime real estate stretching from Shkodra to Saranda. Did we trade it all for beads, whiskey and chickenpox blankets? Where are the wars, the treaties? By what feat of military might and diplomacy did the puny Albanian upstart opportunists accomplish these things and left no trace? It’s allright, though. I know I won’t convince anyone with a few annoying questions. People usually like the smoking guns type of evidence. And we are entrenched in our camps anyway. However, I find it amusing to watch Serbs struggle with this. When we are talking about the Illyrians, we are talking about a brand name, an external categorization, no more. The Illyrians never called themselves that. Proving or disproving their legacy and descent should be a matter filling out the historical record. It’s kind of sad to see Serbs endorse the issue with such political content and then proceed to furiously tear it down; it’s like little kids building sand castles on the beach and enjoying even more crushing them down with little feet. Feel free to make any comment you wish, but I think I said the essence of what I wanted to say; and this isn't the thread to debate the origins of the Albanians, although the Q&A inevitably came up. I believe the question was where will KiM will be in 20 years, and I've already heard the prophetic cries about Serbian knights thundering down upon the unrighteous once again.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Apr 26, 2012 1:44:10 GMT -5
^+1. Te lumt!
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Apr 26, 2012 4:29:26 GMT -5
between slavs and non-slavs there is major difference. slavs have a soul, non-slavs lost it sometime in the past when they stopped speaking slav.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Apr 26, 2012 8:56:06 GMT -5
"The distant past is just that, the distant past. Albanians love to build up theirs and Serbs enjoy tearing it down even more. However, that distant past belongs in the museum and should have no bearing on modern national and international policies. Modern national borders cannot and should not be drawn to reflect anyone’s wet dreams of ancient empires. Incidentally, the world (well, NATO and the US) did not come down on the Kosovar side because they thought they were helping “the Illyrians” take back their ancient land."
Not exactly RD, the world powers today WANT a so called balance of power amoungst the little fractured Balkan nations. The super power (USA) is tearing up everything Serbian while building a so called Albanian state. Your right, the USA didn't come to save an endangered Illyrian nation, however, some writers, historians arn't so honest arn't they because they write to sell to their WESTERN AUDIENCE the lies that Albanians ARE ancient and serbs are the invaders of kosovo and metohija.
"So, proving or disproving that Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians does nothing for the case of Kosovo. Does it help to scream out at the top of your lungs “Albanians are Chechen scum, bloody Muslim marauders and filthy murderers”; if it has any value for anyone, by all means don’t let me stop you, may you find solace and consolation in that mantra. I personally don’t think that’s productive at all, and may be actually quite counter-productive. I must say again, I don’t want to push or pressure anyone into believing something that goes against their grain; we should all be free to make up our own minds – for better or worse."
Aha, so why do your co-patriots persist with this fable telling past. Seriously, Serbs could claim modern Albania as their own according to 6th century migration to this region.
RD, two lines or 1000 lines, we have a Byzantine offical witnessing and writing as a WITNESS, this is FACTUAL EVIDENCE, not just blabering speculation that is compounded, expanded and added.
"It is a historical impossibility, and it is not borne out by any archaeological or historical evidence, that Albanians should have arrived from somewhere else and set up tent in Albania. How did we manage to possess the lands held by the super-empires of the time, the Greeks, Slavs, Romans and Byzantines? – this is prime real estate stretching from Shkodra to Saranda. Did we trade it all for beads, whiskey and chickenpox blankets? Where are the wars, the treaties? By what feat of military might and diplomacy did the puny Albanian upstart opportunists accomplish these things and left no trace?"
1) Given supreme status in Ottoman empire for being a loyal class 2) quick conversion to Islam, while other christian nations refused to convert. 3) Assilimation by Albanians in Albania during Ottoman period (due to a previlaged status) 4) Austria/Hungary feared a Serbian access to Adriatic rushed in and created an Albanian state in 1912 (first time ever Albania has a state).
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Apr 26, 2012 9:47:43 GMT -5
^Lol. Battle of 1389 my ass. If it was about Serbdom you people would be more focused on RS and Krajina as I have stated before. RS is set already, not sure what you're talking about there. Krajina is doing better, the Serbs are being protected and are gaining more rights within their territory. The Croatian Prime Minister himself has Serb origins and has vowed to return everything back to the Serbs from what they had prior to the war. All in time my friend, all in time. Here , I'm throwing down the bull$hit flag. Haha.
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Post by suart on Apr 27, 2012 10:58:51 GMT -5
Dysfunction; Give up your paradoxical crap, all you write is ''we know'' , ''we know''. I tell you. All you know is the albanianism pathology and nothing else. You speak about the 2nd and third Century as you were living in that time or as you were part of the battles. Shut up and do not make a fool of yourself. 95% of the whole Balkans is with slavic names (the regions, cities, villages, hills, Valleys, mountains).
Albanians deny everything, as the montenegrin Academic Kaplan Burovich says: ''if it was for the albanians, everything what is on earth belongs to their selfishness albanianism and, everything else (nonalbanian) is originated from the moon''.
Let me remind you (as an albanian myself). Albania is full of a romanians, serbs, montenegrins, bosnians, greeks, macedonian, groans, bulgarian pomaks, romas, egyptians etc. So, how much illyrian or Pellazgian blood (this is b ullsh it) is left on a tiny (supposed to be) albanian poor blood (a percentage) after all these centuries? All you schizos should be reminded of is George Castreota that you know (like the whole world does) that he was a serb, and without a shame you keep him as your hero when, he married a greek noble girl, his son and grand son married serb nobles. His sisters too. His brothers, one died as a macedonian, the other as a greek. Where is your ''factually''….This last word is your ''dysfunction-analogy'' . You speak about the 2 and 3 century when you do not know your own history, your own inbreed people. Get a break and go to your albanian forum and trash everything, that is what the albanianism is good for. Even the eagle as a bird has not escaped the albanianism, when, we all know that there is no eagles left in ALbania. It is a mad house-country like.
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Post by realitydysfunction on Apr 27, 2012 12:03:18 GMT -5
Dysfunction; Give up your paradoxical crap, all you write is ''we know'' , ''we know''. I tell you. All you know is the albanianism pathology and nothing else. You speak about the 2nd and third Century as you were living in that time or as you were part of the battles. Shut up and do not make a fool of yourself. 95% of the whole Balkans is with slavic names (the regions, cities, villages, hills, Valleys, mountains). Albanians deny everything, as the montenegrin Academic Kaplan Burovich says: ''if it was for the albanians, everything what is on earth belongs to their selfishness albanianism and, everything else (nonalbanian) is originated from the moon''. Let me remind you (as an albanian myself). Albania is full of a romanians, serbs, montenegrins, bosnians, greeks, macedonian, groans, bulgarian pomaks, romas, egyptians etc. So, how much illyrian or Pellazgian blood (this is b ullsh it) is left on a tiny (supposed to be) albanian poor blood (a percentage) after all these centuries? All you schizos should be reminded of is George Castreota that you know (like the whole world does) that he was a serb, and without a shame you keep him as your hero when, he married a greek noble girl, his son and grand son married serb nobles. His sisters too. His brothers, one died as a macedonian, the other as a greek. Where is your ''factually''….This last word is your ''dysfunction-analogy'' . You speak about the 2 and 3 century when you do not know your own history, your own inbreed people. Get a break and go to your albanian forum and trash everything, that is what the albanianism is good for. Even the eagle as a bird has not escaped the albanianism, when, we all know that there is no eagles left in ALbania. It is a mad house-country like. Suart, you are the paradox you big fake You are no true Albanian; at best you have the Albanian veneer, but not the Albanian soul. The biggest pathology around here is your refusal to grant Albanians their history. No matter who else came and went, the Albanians were already home in Balkan. I didn’t need to be there in the second century to know what happened or how battles were fought. I don’t need to be at the battle of Kadesh to know about it; I didn’t need to be at Granaikos to know Alexander was hit by a Persian ax, I didn’t need to be at Gaugamela to know how the Persians prepared the battlefield for their scythed chariots. I didn’t need to be there to know greeks wore 1 inch thick bronze breastplates, I didn’t need to be there to know how the roman army was arranged in velites, hastatii, principes and triarii, nor to know that the roman pilum was designed with a soft iron neck so it would bend or break once thrown, nor that the romans fought in strict order trained to engage the man to the right, and that a roman general executed his own son for accepting a personal challenge from an enemy and fighting it out of formation. I didn’t need to be there to know the mongols rode with straw dummies on their horses to “increase” their numbers, I didn’t need to be there to know they held raw meat under their saddles to be tenderized by horse’s sweat and they sliced off pieces of the meat when resting (European observers at the time thought the mongols were actually filleting their live horses), I didn’t need to be there that the great horseman Genghis Khan broke his back and died in a fall from his horse, buried in an unmarked grave in an unknown location together with his whip. “We know” that a Greek man burned down the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus – one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World – because he wanted to become famous and immortalize his name. I wasn’t there but I know his name. You can be as satiric as you like, but “we know” these things because this is recorded history. Try reading a few history books before you presume to mock me next time. Calling me a fool causes me no great distress nor does it make you any smarter.
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Post by uz on Apr 27, 2012 15:28:35 GMT -5
RS is set already, not sure what you're talking about there. Krajina is doing better, the Serbs are being protected and are gaining more rights within their territory. The Croatian Prime Minister himself has Serb origins and has vowed to return everything back to the Serbs from what they had prior to the war. All in time my friend, all in time. Here , I'm throwing down the bull$hit flag. Haha. Priso. This is coming for your own people. Where's the bulls**t exactly? Zoran Milanovic did in fact promise to return all property/rights back to the Serbs from what they had prior to the war. He has promised to excavate 400+ "unknown" grave sites where Serbs still lie burried. Most, if not all the Serbs in Croatia voted for his party, as they did for Pro-EU. So where's the bulls**t? When the EU does IN FACT guarantee minorital-rights... Croatia has been criticized by their EU-overlords regarding this, and Croatia has been doing better. Whether Croatia fullfills their promise is one thing, but again, these are not my sources but yours.
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Post by uz on Apr 27, 2012 15:44:48 GMT -5
Suart. RD is a guy you want on your side.
Speaking as a Serbian, he's a stand-up Albanian so I don't know wtf is your issue with him.
As Pyros once said here (while quoting a Bosnian)...
"Two minds that think, cannot disagree."
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