atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Jan 26, 2013 20:45:55 GMT -5
what book would that be, is it the same one that claims scanderbeg was serb and that albanians came from the caucases?
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dukeduka
Amicus
Numbskull misleading poster
Posts: 261
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Post by dukeduka on Jan 26, 2013 20:50:58 GMT -5
I am glad you agree with my post. Now let s talk about Balshajt:
Nowhere did I say I agree with your post, I have just chosen to start at Balsa and if you go back and read my post you will see that I point out that I will get back to the other points you made, ok ? good lets start,
I mentioned Stefan I because I was showing that Skendebeg fought under Stefens standard of the double headed eagle and then you came in with the whopper that Balsa founded Zeta which is 100% wrong and also that he was Albanian. Since you claim The Balsic noble family was Albanian I asked you to show me, but you did nothing just gave me a whole lot of mumbo jumbo, since the points you raised in your original post cannot be answered in one or two sentences i have chosen to break them up into smaller pieces so we can start with Balsa I, yes BALSA not balshajt (Which does not exist anywhere)
So I ask you again since you claim Balsa I was Albanian, show me how you are this confident, dont give me alliances etc show me liniage, truth is you cannot because his liniage is not known, and while most scholars agree he was a Serb and one claiming Serbo-Albanian roots you decide he is Albanian full stop, so show me why Historians are not correct and you are, and then we can move on to some of the other claims you make.
Oh and its Serbia not Servia, Serbs not Servs etc please use the correct terms when discussing with me if you cannot then there is no point discussing anything further with you because you are influenced by something other than History.
1. I called Servia because that s how the majority of the latin documents refer to the modern state of Serbia. Since we are talking about medieval times, it is more than correct to call it Servia.( It was also called Sclavoi, Sclavene, Servians - I will just go with Servia.) 2. Balshajt were one of those noble families that were able to Survive the slavic invasion. Go in Balez of Shkodra and there you ll see their origin. (how many Balshaj live in Serbia today?- my classmate in high school had his surname Balshaj for god s sake.) 3. Arberesh of italy have Balshaj surname and they speak medieval Albanian. I will look for historical fact that show the family tree of Balshaj. However you refrain yourself of contradicting me about this historical facts: Well... as for beginning; the daughter of the Krajl of Servia was married to Murat ( Truce between Servia and Ottomans).
Then Skanderbeg had alliances with Hungarians (Hunniad), sometimes with Venedic (there were times when he also fought them) but never such alliance with Slavs nor Greeks.
When Skenderbeg went to fight alongside Hunniad of Vojvodina and
Transylvania the Krajl of Servia cut down his path with an army fighting
him and trying to kill Skenderbeg (guess what happen - Skenderbeg lived and he demolished the ¨christian?¨ Servian army. )))
The two headed eagle has its origin further back in times than the Byzantine Empire itself.
Skanderbeg flag was from his own family form the Kastriot of Kruja the city of the
first state of Arber the city of Progon founded in 1190.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progon_family
(and Serbs should STOP using that Byzantine symbol in their flag cuz they never gave anything to Byzantine at all,
they fought against Byznatine, they allied themselves with Turks, they
produced Serbian Vezris, Pasha, and Prime ministers for the Ottomans;
but i forgot! sorry they were able to keep deep in their hearts the Judeo-Abrahamic philosophy called Christian ism )
Serbs are as much related to Albanians and Greeks as are the Slavic Macedonians related to both Greeks and Albanians
FYI: Ionians were Semitic.
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 27, 2013 0:03:25 GMT -5
Balshajt were one of those noble families that were able to Survive the slavic invasion. As I said I dont know of any Balshajt nor can I find anything on ths family, so are we actually talking about the same thing here ? Balsa the first He was the ruler of Zeta, Subordinate to Uros the weak and his sons killed Ilijic the lord of Upper Zeta, it was Balsa I not any freakin Balshajt.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Jan 27, 2013 5:58:24 GMT -5
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 5:07:23 GMT -5
^^^^
Lol great example of when you got nothing, well done.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Jan 28, 2013 9:22:06 GMT -5
its so outrageous that further commenting is futile
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 28, 2013 12:26:14 GMT -5
Balshajt were one of those noble families that were able to Survive the slavic invasion. As I said I dont know of any Balshajt nor can I find anything on ths family, so are we actually talking about the same thing here ? Balsa the first He was the ruler of Zeta, Subordinate to Uros the weak and his sons killed Ilijic the lord of Upper Zeta, it was Balsa I not any freakin Balshajt. This is correct.
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dukeduka
Amicus
Numbskull misleading poster
Posts: 261
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Post by dukeduka on Jan 28, 2013 15:59:00 GMT -5
Balshajt were one of those noble families that were able to Survive the slavic invasion. As I said I dont know of any Balshajt nor can I find anything on ths family, so are we actually talking about the same thing here ? Balsa the first He was the ruler of Zeta, Subordinate to Uros the weak and his sons killed Ilijic the lord of Upper Zeta, it was Balsa I not any freakin Balshajt. I tried to look for the family tree of the Balshaj family, but different resources give different origin. Based on Wikipedia I found this info: <<Karl Hopf (1832-1873) considered "unquestionably part of the Serb tribe". Ivan Stepanovich Yastrebov (1839–1894), Russian Consul in Shkodër and Prizren, when speaking of the Balšići, connect their name to the Roman town of Balletium (Baleč) located near modern Shkodër. According to Čedomilj Mijatović (1842–1934), the Balšić family had ultimate origin in the House of Baux from Provence (south eastern France); from that family sprung an Italian family (del Balzo), and from them the Balšići, and from them a Romanian family. Vladimir Ćorović (1885-1941) said that, based on their name, they had Roman (Vlach) origin. Giuseppe Gelcich theorized on the origin in his La Zedda e la dinastia dei Balšidi: studi storici documentati (1899). The theory asserting them as descendants of the Frankish nobleman Bertrand III of Baux, a companion of Charles d'Anjou is regarded as highly improbable. Croatian ethnologist Milan Šufflay believed that they were of "Romanian" and "Vlach" origin. German linguist Gustav Weigand (1860–1930) alleged a mixed Albanian-Aromanian origin after he noted that their family name was included in a list of early Albanian surnames in Romania.
In modern scholarship John Fine, Donald Nicol, and Peter Bartl view the Balšić family as Serbian, Edgar Hösch and Plemen Tsvetkov as Albanian, while Noel Malcolm opts for a dual Serbo-Albanian identity.>>
Some say they re Serbian, some Albanian, some Vlah, some a combination of either of them.
As I said you earlier Balsha (one family)/Balshaj (the families)/Balshajt (about that family) (different pronunciations have the same meaning )is a very common surname and there are Balshaj in the Arberesh communities in Italy. What is known about Balshajt is that:
1. They killed the voivodes of the the Slavs in Zeta.
2. Balshajt were member of the leagues of Lezha
3. Family of Balshaj was Catholic and not Orthodox
4. Pope Urban V benedicted them as the clergy of Arbri, Puli, and Sardi, Lisus and Valona
5. Balshajt fought against the princes that ruled after the fall of Dushman.(against Vukashin, and after Vukashin was dead Balshajt and Muzaka took the city of Kostur in 1372 after the fight they did against the son of Vukashin, Mark Krajleviçit. In 1375 Mark Krajleviçit by collaborating with the Ottomans tried to take the city back, but they failed to do so.
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 16:28:31 GMT -5
Well this is what I have been telling you, most scholars consider Balsa I as Serb, it is Malcolm who states the family was Serbo-Albanian. We dont know for sure because the founders family line was not recorded. Balsa I's sons killed Ilijic who was the Lord of upper Zeta enabling the Balsic family to completly rule Zeta. Balsic family did not establish Zeta it was Ceslav who first ruled Zeta in 930. Balsa I was subordinate to Uros the weak. It was Balsic family that Balsa I founded, there is no Balshajt family recorded in any history books except the Albanian ones. I am inclined to agree with Malcolm that the family did have Serbo-Albanian roots. The Balsic family ended with BasaIII who passed on the rule of Zeta to his cousin Stephan the tall.
Serbs and Albanians do share more than neighbouring history, your noble familys mixed so how can anyone say the commoners did not.
Can we move on to your other statements now ?
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 16:46:29 GMT -5
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Jan 28, 2013 16:48:29 GMT -5
thats what epic serbian poems cause
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 16:57:24 GMT -5
^^^
All anyone need do is trace his sons, they are Serbs and identify as such, no Serb poems here and definatly no Albanian attempts at rewriting history, thanx.
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Jan 28, 2013 17:26:53 GMT -5
why the sons ? and not the past fathers
if you go back to the fathers of way back you find much Albanian mixes going on ..especially in Montenegro
today's sons are already assimilated like Novi and Uzi its too late
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 17:42:17 GMT -5
Ha, I have been pointing that out to you guys that Albs and Serbs have mixed but both of you dont like hearing it.
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atdhetar
Amicus
tonight we dine in hell!
Posts: 3,124
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Post by atdhetar on Jan 28, 2013 18:15:23 GMT -5
balshajt are a noble albanian family and that name still prevails in that region, its not a strange phenomenon for albanian tribes to be devoured by the wretched serbs, the kuci tribe comes to mind and a big branch of the kelmendi tribe, yes there is overlap between albs and serbs in montenegro, they're cross bred, but balshaj come from shkodra, the name doesn't even sound slavic, despite the convenient slavic suffix at the end of the word.
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 28, 2013 18:15:43 GMT -5
why the sons ? and not the past fathers if you go back to the fathers of way back you find much Albanian mixes going on ..especially in Montenegro today's sons are already assimilated like Novi and Uzi its too late This applies more to Albanians than anything els, this is evident by just looking at you people. There is no "Albanian-look" - yes every country especially in the Balkans have many isolated examples we can throw at each other, but the main argument is that this is way more prevalent among Albanians than anyone else. I have seen Albs who look Arab, Swede, Slavic, Latin, Turk and Paki in abundance. You guys boast pictures about "Kosovo Albanians-look" and the majority could pass as Slavic easily and YES this include SERB.
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Post by Balkaneros on Jan 28, 2013 18:20:47 GMT -5
balshajt are a noble albanian family and that name still prevails in that region, its not a strange phenomenon for albanian tribes to be devoured by the wretched serbs, the kuci tribe comes to mind and a big branch of the kelmendi tribe, yes there is overlap between albs and serbs in montenegro, they're cross bred, but balshaj come from shkodra, the name doesn't even sound slavic, despite the convenient slavic suffix at the end of the word. They were not originally Albanian - your logic doesn't coincide with documentation at all. You're saying they were Albanian -> turned SERB -> turned back to Albanian. Or are you saying SERBs just assimilitated among this tribe, cause either way you're totally wrong with either perspective.
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 28, 2013 19:52:29 GMT -5
balshajt are a noble albanian family and that name still prevails in that region,
Could be but this Balshajt family has no links to what we have ben discussing here, Balsa III had an only son (heir) who died a child in 1415 so at the time of Balsa III death there was no more heirs and Balsa III left all to his uncle Stefan "the tall" Lazarevic.
The Balsic family whos founder was Balsa I is gone, no descendents are left.
A lot of the Balsic family is easily traced because the oldest legislative document of Zeta exists it was recorded in 1368 And also a decree by Balsa II in 1395.
So again I am telling you that there is no Serbian epic poetry in my posts nor are there Albanian attempts to rewrite history.
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Post by littleboyfatman on Jan 28, 2013 20:57:20 GMT -5
balshajt are a noble albanian family and that name still prevails in that region, its not a strange phenomenon for albanian tribes to be devoured by the wretched serbs, the kuci tribe comes to mind and a big branch of the kelmendi tribe, yes there is overlap between albs and serbs in montenegro, they're cross bred, but balshaj come from shkodra, the name doesn't even sound slavic, despite the convenient slavic suffix at the end of the word. They were not originally Albanian - your logic doesn't coincide with documentation at all. You're saying they were Albanian -> turned SERB -> turned back to Albanian. Or are you saying SERBs just assimilitated among this tribe, cause either way you're totally wrong with either perspective. becouse it is to hard for you to understand... doesnt say nothing...
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lokii
Commanding Moderator
Posts: 126
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Post by lokii on Jan 29, 2013 16:55:17 GMT -5
Ok I think the Balsic family and its founder Balsa one is settled and we can now move on to dukeduka's other claims, Well... as for beginning; the daughter of the Krajl of Servia was married to Murat ( Truce between Servia and Ottomans).
Hmm, I really am not sure here, I know Olivera was married off to Bayezid I but I dont know which Serbian princess was married to Murad perhaps you could clear this up and then we can move on.
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