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Post by terroreign on Mar 7, 2008 1:15:38 GMT -5
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Post by radovic on Mar 7, 2008 15:07:56 GMT -5
The government is stupid. They cant give it to the illegitimate CPC because it has no connection to the pre-1918 church that existed in Montenegro.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 7, 2008 15:38:52 GMT -5
same sort of thing you guys have been saying about our independence, about our language, ect ect
Just like kosovo happened, this will too, accept it
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Post by radovic on Mar 8, 2008 0:18:49 GMT -5
same sort of thing you guys have been saying about our independence, about our language, ect ect Just like kosovo happened, this will too, accept it See the thing is, this is unlikely to happen. Aside from a few MP's in the Montenegrin parliament no party supports the restitution or seizing of land from the proper church and giving it to the bastardized church that's only existed since 1993 and which at most (and this is taking liberal estimates) has less then 8% of people in Montenegro as members. Furthermore. If Montenegro does do it, it is another clear sign that Montenegro's government those not respect the rule of law.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Mar 9, 2008 8:35:06 GMT -5
^ the rule of law was broken when montenegro was forced to join serbia into the kingdom of yugoslavia, and seized all the montenegrin orthodox church porperty , and gave it to the serbian orthodox church which was alien to montenegro at that time, and then the montenegrin orthodox church was abolished and banned.
the democratic thing to do would be to give all the property that SPC/SOC controlls in montenegro, to its rightful owners,....the CPC/MOC
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Post by vucigorski on Mar 9, 2008 8:56:22 GMT -5
The rule of law...............hmm interesting :S Which rule of law exactly? See I only have minor knowledge of Orthodoxy but to me it seems that the power to recognise a church lies with the Patriarchate of Constantiople. My understanding is that they supported the restoration of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Balkans following Ottamon withdrawrel. My understanding is that even till this day they hold the same viewpoint. So with that information, WHO the FUKC are YOU to be the international police of Orthodoxy when you know nothing? Oh youre just an internet warrior with an anti-Serb agenda..........my bad. Yes we were FORCED. Never mind that we went into two Balkan Wars with the intenetion to join Serbia..................never mind that our greatest leaders wanted a United Slav state. Never mind that our small nation risked going to war with Half of Europe in 1914 to create this new state. And never mind that the greater majority of Montenegrins supportded Kralj Nikolas grandson Karadjordjevic as being our new leader. "Forced to join Yugoslavia" Bah.........idiot. Yes the Serbian Orthodox army of nuns and pops invaded Crna Gora and stole the monastries built by Sveti Sava in the 13th Century......... HA! The democratic thing to do would be to leave the Orthodox monastries of Montenegro to the only recognised Orthodox Church of Montenegro..................The SOC. HA!
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Post by radovic on Mar 9, 2008 18:59:21 GMT -5
^ the rule of law was broken when montenegro was forced to join serbia into the kingdom of yugoslavia, and seized all the montenegrin orthodox church porperty , and gave it to the serbian orthodox church which was alien to montenegro at that time, and then the montenegrin orthodox church was abolished and banned. I'd like to add the following to what Vucigorski has stated: - In 1920 the Montenegrin royal family recognized and supported the unification of the two churches. - In 1914 Montenegro and Serbia were planning a union just between those two states. In fact that Petrovic dynasty were in favour of this (except they prefered that a unified Serbia and Montenegro be ruled by their dynasty and not by their relatives in Serbia). - Not only that but when the Ottomans abolished the Serbia Church (Pec Patriarchate) in 1766 the MOC was organized for the first time and asserted it as the Patriarchates continuation. - If the leadership of the pre-WWI MOC was so against joinign the Serb Church then why didn't they flee and set up a MOC Outside Montenegro like the Russian Church leaders did. - Furthmore. Even if what you claim is true, it would be very undemocratic against the rule of law for the current MOC to be given church property belonging to the Serbian church since it has no connection or continuity with the church that ones existed in Montenegro. The rightful democratic thing is for them to not do that and too not allow a bastard creation to use the name Orthodox illegitimately.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 10, 2008 16:31:22 GMT -5
Here are the facts:
in 1920 serbia seized all of the montenegrin churches, banned the Montenegrin orthodox church and opressed ALL people of Montenegro who didnt agree with their views.
Here are the words from a neutral observer in Montenegro in 1919 :
"entire stocks of American food rushed to Montenegro by the Hoover administration have fallen into the hands of the Serbians. Before a Montenegrin can acquire any of these supplies, he must first denounce his own country and swear allegiance to the Serbian King Peter. Failing in this he is thrown in jail. The jails in Cetinje and Cattaro are reported full of Montenegrins, and bands of Montenegrins captured in the hills are being brought in daily and executed."
Long Live the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, the only true orthodox church in Montenegro.
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Post by vucigorski on Mar 10, 2008 20:58:13 GMT -5
"Here are the words from a neutral observer in Montenegro in 1919"
Who happens to have no name........ahahaha
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Post by radovic on Mar 10, 2008 22:00:14 GMT -5
Here are the facts: in 1920 serbia seized all of the montenegrin churches, banned the Montenegrin orthodox church and opressed ALL people of Montenegro who didnt agree with their views. Here are the other facts: - The montenegrin government in exile supported the merger of the churches in 1920. - The MOC was not banned as it merged with the Serb church. Had the MOC been banned no legitimate merger would have taken place and it's leaders would have fled aborad setting up a church abroad, kind of like russian leaders did. - Lastly. The current Montenegrin regime you support is trying to opress those who do not agree with them. Clearly your quote is absolute rubbish. The Hoover administration was not in power until 1929. So basically your quote is made up. Not only that but Hoover had no part in the administration of 1919 (when Woodrow Wilson was president). Furthermore, Hoover and Wilson were members of different parties. The church that has no legitimacy to call themselves Orthodox, and that whas a priest who is from Holland, 1/4 Montenegrin, smokes marijuana and combines elements of Shintoism (a Japanese religion) in his preaching. Wow, I didn't know Dutch pot-heads who watch anime were Montenegrins. ;D One can also add the fact that the "priest" was tatooed and supported gay marriage. but that was two years ago. Last year, I didn't see him. So I'm goging to assume he went back to Holland. Good riddance, Montenegro doesn't need more MOC freaks.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 11, 2008 3:40:53 GMT -5
The quote is real radovic, and the facts in it are also. ap.grolier.com/article?assetid=0205570-00Hoover was the "Director of relief and rehabilitation", sending food to the war-torn european countries in WW2, like Montenegro for example. But this food never got to us because the serbs intercepted it and starved my people to death. How could the priests leave the country and set up churches elsewhere, when they were being slaughtered by serbian forces? And others being forced to serbian orthodoxy? But you cannot quote one article from 1920 directly backing this up The merger was legitimate....on paper Who wrote on that paper? Serbs.... Who's blood was spilt during this "merger"? Montenegrins'... Are you happy now, I guess I somewhat agree with you ;D Can you provide a link for this, I never heard of such a person
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Post by radovic on Mar 11, 2008 9:09:35 GMT -5
The quote is real radovic, and the facts in it are also. ap.grolier.com/article?assetid=0205570-00Hoover was the "Director of relief and rehabilitation", sending food to the war-torn european countries in WW2, like Montenegro for example. Stop being a lying douche. You are right, he was in charge of relief. But that quote is not real. Since no one would actually refer to what he is doing as "Hoover administration" since that would imply that he is the president or governor of a U.S. state. Not only that but your quote appears nowhere on the page you linked to. Again. Your source proves nothing, especially since that quote is not even present on the site you linked to. How couldn't they. When the Bolsheviks were slaughtering priests in Russia they managed to escape and set up a rival church to the one communists were making. After WWII Serb priests who fled to America and Canada set up a church abroad because they did not recognize the churches in Serbia authority under Tito's rule. Refugees always manage to make it out of war zones. Your claim has no merit. Actually I can. Remember I posted a scan of the official Montenegrin government in exile newspaper and it specifically said that it supported the merger. Let's see. The MOC supported the merger, the Montenegrin government in exile did, the Serrbian church, as did the Ecumenical PAtriarch. So, any one of those people coukld have written on the hypothetical paper ypu speak off. Actually. That's an experience I had awith someone claiming he was a MOC priest. I didn't really buy his story, a year later I didn't see him. I'm pretty sure the guy got high and was making things up -- or waqs kicked out of the MOC.
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Post by terroreign on Mar 11, 2008 17:41:47 GMT -5
;D I know I'm right Not neccessarily, an administration is a broad term, you want me to look up the definition on websters for you my son? You must be slow, the quote from my last post is from the link directly beneath it, now if you're speaking of the quote I provided much earlier, that is from a reliable and neutral source. The quote from the neutral observer proves alot, considering its one of the few of its kind, quotes from serb sources have as much reliability as a 20 year old pinto driving across America. Do you know how big russia is? How much easier it is for someone to hide or escape? You can't compare that huge environment to tiny Montenegro, where if a army who knows the terrain invades, you got nowhere to run but in the adriatic. The communists were not burning priests on stakes, they were if anything exiled or were free to leave on their own will. In Montenegro priests were being murdered WHOLESALE. They do most times, and many did in Montenegro's case, proven by immigration forms(same ones showing 'Montenegrin' under race/ethnicity), not the priests however. Actually you can't, I remember the scan, I remember you couldnt read it, and I read the entire thing, not one part stating that they "Support" a "Merger" of Churches. The article was quite after the annexation and ban of the MOC, and was actually just talking about the pec church and that the head of the church should stay there instead of go to belgrade. The MOC did not support any merger, the Montenegrin government did not either, as seen in the official speech at the Paris Peace Conference www.montenet.org/2001/jk.htmlAnd obviously the serbian church would support it, they were the ones conquering and killing us! lol, and i'm pretty sure you're full of govno
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Post by radovic on Mar 11, 2008 17:56:15 GMT -5
Not in the contrext you used it. In the context your quote mentioned it, implies that he was president. You must be brain dead. You provided this source, ap.grolier.com/article?assetid=0205570-00. Montenegro appears nowhere on it. and a quote from you has as much reliability as a dutch pothead who watches anime who was a MOC priest. Especially since your source doesn't exist. Do you know that Montenegro has access to the sea and Serbia is landlocked. I'm pretty sure their were churches on the coast and the people could have fled to italy. You do know that refugees manage to escape from a site no matter how small it is. You do know Lebanon is smaller then Montenegro and has more people and many managed to escape in the wars their. Actually, the Bolsheviks were doing that. But I guess, you try to exagerrate real or supposed Serb crimes. So by your logic, priests aren't humans. Actually you didn't and you were proven wrong. A speech made in 1919. actions speak louder then words. And in 1920, the ecumencial patriarch recognized the merger. As did the government in exile. Oh and the MOC did not set up a church abroad. Clearly, they were in favour of the merger. And I'm pretty sure your a gay albanian posing as a montenegrin.
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