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Post by diurpaneus on Feb 7, 2008 4:00:27 GMT -5
Does that actually happen in Turkey? Muslims entering Orthodox Churches, lighting candles and praying?
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Post by depletedreasons on Feb 8, 2008 3:48:48 GMT -5
In the suburb (Kadikoy or Chalcedon) I was raised, we had some Mosques, some Armenians Churches, a French Catholic Church, some Orthodox Roman (Greek) Churches, and a synagogue. Some of our neighbors used to bring us those Easter Eggs, or they did not hesitate to celebrate the Muslims on Holy days of Islam. I personally know that some Muslim people also visit Holy Christian places. In fact, I believe, this has some historical background. For example, during the Medieval times, Greek sailors used to have the priest save a prayer before the departure of the ship. Later, the Turks also started to necessitate the priest to do same for themselves since they believed that such traditions must have had some value for everyone.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 8, 2008 9:13:26 GMT -5
Does that actually happen in Turkey? Muslims entering Orthodox Churches, lighting candles and praying? Why not. You can find all kind of practices and beliefs in Turkey. But those are pretty much confused people. They are not any close to a real Christian or Muslim. Lost in between religions. No matter what people should have that freedom of choice. After all, each of us is responsible of only himself/herself.
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 8, 2008 12:15:06 GMT -5
Does that actually happen in Turkey? Muslims entering Orthodox Churches, lighting candles and praying? Why not. You can find all kind of practices and beliefs in Turkey. But those are pretty much confused people. They are not any close to a real Christian or Muslim. Lost in between religions. No matter what people should have that freedom of choice. After all, each of us is responsible of only himself/herself. Stop talking as if you know what god feels about that practice. You make yourself look very ignorant. If you feel so great about founding your new belief, feel great; but don't make yourself look like a fool in the process.
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Post by Kassandros on Feb 8, 2008 16:13:22 GMT -5
Religious tolerance in Turkey. Oh my God! lol lol lol What a joke! Its like being a Jew and Nazi silmutaneously lol lol
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Post by yahadj on Feb 8, 2008 21:06:16 GMT -5
Why not. You can find all kind of practices and beliefs in Turkey. But those are pretty much confused people. They are not any close to a real Christian or Muslim. Lost in between religions. No matter what people should have that freedom of choice. After all, each of us is responsible of only himself/herself. Stop talking as if you know what god feels about that practice. You make yourself look very ignorant. If you feel so great about founding your new belief, feel great; but don't make yourself look like a fool in the process. Did I say I know what "God" feels about that practice??? I don't think,so. What do I know?! Only God knows. But those practices as any believer- Christian or Muslim - would tell you, without any hesitation don't fit into the practices of any of those two great religions. The ritiuals are clear. No matter how much you mix them they don't fit to any of those two... This is called logic! You are free to talk as you want. You are free to express yourself you want. Chill out!
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 9, 2008 0:03:36 GMT -5
Yahac, they did not change any of their religious rituals. What they did was to attend each other's religious rituals as a sign of solidarity towards each other, because they view one another as believers in the same god. If I have the right impression of you, you would want to encourage that practice, not displace it.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 9, 2008 4:31:57 GMT -5
The point here is that people in Turkey used to pray in their mosques, churches and synagogs side by side for centuries without any major conflicts. Many imams and priests ended becoming good friends and neighbors. That is different from ligthing candles and performing each others rituals. The first part I agree, was very important and vital during the time of Ottoman empire. I still claim there was no other country during the medievial history than Ottoman empire which let its citizens to enjoy their religious practices with a such tolerance - not in any Western European country we witness that except may be during the time of Endulusian Spain. It was a big achievement for Ottomans. All those religions had somewhat equal opportunity for worship. In our modern times I find USA very close to that understanding and tolerance. A big plus for USA! But just imagine, if a Christian comes to a mosque and starts performing namaz five times a day wouldn't you think he converted to Islam. But if he claims that he is doing that just, I don't know, wants to show respect to Muslim people, I would realy find difficult to understand the reasoning behind that thought. You realy don't need to perform certain rituals just to show respect and tolerance. I know that there are many supposedly "Muslims" who would perform certain Shamanistic pagan rituals like praying to certains Muslim "saints" at their tombs (we call them turbe), then, some of them would tie some colorful cloths to trees for "good luck" in love and some of the same folk would visit some churches, light candles and pray Mother Mary for luck or some special wish (like to get married to a certain guy or so). Those are simply paganistic rituals nothing to do with any of those monotheistic religions. But I say, it is OK, but realy doesn't have any real religious meaning backed by any of those three religions. They are paganistic practices and they need to be defined correctly as that. People are still free to do whatever they want. But once you know what it realy means to be a Jew, Christian or Muslim you can't simply accept anything that somebody wants to attribute to any of those three categories. The real tolerance is being able to support the peaceful co-existance of those three great religions in their real form in a harmony with all their followers respecting each other for their way of worshiping God! As Kur'an teaches us- "For you, your religion; for me, my religion." Peace!
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 9, 2008 5:43:54 GMT -5
I believe the British Empire was also tolerant to other religions. It's no so much about goodwill, as it is about being pragmatic. It's quite normal for vast empires compromising many groups of people with different religions, to be tolerated and sometimes, even priviliged.
When it comes to the rituals, I think that what you are asking for is loyalty to one's own dogma. The question is: do rituals define one's faith? The core principle of these three religions is the belief in God and to live in accordance to its teachings, but the rituals are placed in a different category and I'm not sure how much of it, or if any of it, makes you a qualified Muslim--or vice versa. These rituals were created by the priesthood to keep control over the believers. They could have other functions, as well, such as keeping the believer motivated, help him meditate, or as a way to express one's love for God.
I can imagine why a priest would not want his peers going to Christian churches to pray and light candles, but is loyalty to dogma relevant to one's beliefs? What if a Muslim would accept an invitation to dine on Christmas, with Christians; or if a Christian would accept to dine with Muslims, on Ramadan. What would that change?
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Post by yahadj on Feb 9, 2008 11:15:15 GMT -5
I don't think British empire can be any match to Otomans in that respect. Their missionary actions and opressions over Indian Muslims is very well known. And those were colonies. Very different than Ottoman way of administration... Anyway, I was talking about the medievil times. British empire had its rein way later than that. Well I am sorry, but they do. Especailly in Islam - the five pillars of being Muslim is mostly about peforming the rituals of worship. As far as I know that is very strict in Catholics, too. Let's not even mention the rituals of Jews. They are way stricter than any of us... All of those religions have their books to explain the reasoning behind each of them and then all of them require certain ways of worship, and those are a set of prayers, rituals and ceremonies. Basically that is what constitutes a religion. If you don't have deep understanding regarding the core of the religion, of course those rituals are useless. But once you have a strong belief then you automatically want to show your devotion to God and the way God asks people to do that is by prayers, rituals and good deeds. So I really I don't see why a good believer accepting certain book as guidance won't follow the required duties imposed by God mentioned in those books. This is true for Christian Chruches, but in Islam the rituals and prayers were revealed and thought to our prophet by Angel Gabriel. So Muslim scholars don't have any disputes on those issues at all. And I think Christians need to have certain ways of rituals,too. Them being inspired might be reasonable,too. However it is preferable if majority of them follow similar rituals. Oh that is different. Dining is not necessarily religious ritual. Everybody eats. And friends and neighbors from different religions would eat togheter. What is wrong with that? For so many years we have lived in mixed societies and participated to each others dinners and festivals. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean Chtistmas would have a special meaning to me as a Muslim. Does it have to? But we can share the joy of friendship...
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Rhezus
Moderator
DERZA STURIA TRAUS
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 9, 2008 17:03:22 GMT -5
Hey kids, you are mistaken about Turkey. Go and see for yourself - its a better country than other balkan places. The ppl are just fine - friendly and more respected than i.e. macos, serbs or bulgarians. A fact some cannot swallow?!..
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 10, 2008 12:49:43 GMT -5
If this dogma is not mentioned in your holy books, then it's an establishment. I think that praying five times per day is mentioned, but probably not the rest. Even so, it says nothing about not attending the establishment of others. It says about not worshipping false gods, but since the Christians believe in the same god as you do, that won't apply. And even if what they did does not fit the picture, I doubt you could say that they are not "real Muslims." I don't think that you, or those Imams, can make such a call.
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Post by yahadj on Feb 10, 2008 14:54:32 GMT -5
If this dogma is not mentioned in your holy books, then it's an establishment. I think that praying five times per day is mentioned, but probably not the rest. Even so, it says nothing about not attending the establishment of others. It says about not worshipping false gods, but since the Christians believe in the same god as you do, that won't apply. And even if what they did does not fit the picture, I doubt you could say that they are not "real Muslims." I don't think that you, or those Imams, can make such a call. Most of the rituals we practice is described in Kur'an. Of course there is a lot of misunderstings and wrong-doings,too. They are basicly as a result of the ignorance of Muslims about their religion. Some of those "worships" are simply traditional rituals which were atributed some holiness later. That is a different issue. But, simply I don't see any logic in lighting candles and "praying" to some dead people if you realy claim you are Muslim. The definition of Muslim is clear. You pray only to Allah and the way for you to do that is well defined. I don't see a problem if you go to a church and perform namaz prayer. That would probably be OK and Allah may accept that. Only Allah knows. But I am not sure how Christians would like to see that view. Neither I have wittnessed many Christians coming to our mosques and practicing namaz just because it is the same God. Simply most of the Christians don't believe that Muslims are worshiping the same God. In contrast Muslims think that all those religions originated with the word of the same God but later on those Jews and Christians deviated form the original message and they twisted it. That is why Allah sent us the third and the last message to be kept in its authentic form promised by Allah to remain protected from any alteration till the end of this universe. Thus Muslims belive that the Bible and Torah lost their authencity. In this sence Muslim is not sure what part of Christianity or Judaism preserved the original message. We respect whatever might have been left from the original but we can't be seduced to go back and start following those twisted by humans messages. Thus every good Muslim is devoted to follow the ultimate message - The Holy Qur'an which authenticity is undisputed by any serious scholars... Don't get me wrong. Anybody can do whatever they want. Everybody is free. But it is important if they make their choices consciously, I mean knowing all the strings attached to their actions. After all everybody will be responsible for himself/herself. Nobody will carry anybody's burden. But people who constantly look for more and more knowledge would eventually benefit from that knowledge in establishing their fate in a better way...
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Post by jerryspringer on Feb 10, 2008 20:42:19 GMT -5
They don't pray to dead people, but for dead people. Or perhaps to the saints.
What does the Kuran say about the Bible?
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Post by yahadj on Feb 11, 2008 10:00:36 GMT -5
They don't pray to dead people, but for dead people. Or perhaps to the saints. What does the Kuran say about the Bible? Who were the saints? Diciples or servants of the church?! What authority they have over us? Or do they have some of the power of God?! Do they have independant power they exert upon some people whenever they want? Well, we don't belive that. They were people like us. They served God and they will be rewarded for that. Peace and the belssing of Allah be upon them. That is all. We don't even pray to our prophet Mohammed. He was a human being who served as the last prophet of God who brought us the last message of God. The message and source is important. We believe that Jesus did the same, but later on some people attributed divine properties to him. It is only God who can help us and forgive our sins. Thus, we only pray to Allah. It is only Allah that was not born and who doesn't give birth to anybody. God is source of creation but creation is not a part of him. Allah is not in a form of human being, he is beyond any simple form. Our duty on Earth is clear. We have prove ourself worthy to be able to enjoy the nearness to Allah in the afterlife. That is why paradise is not going to happen on the Earth. Some people always will be better than others if they choose to. All prayers are to Allah! Oh and regarding the Bible. Kur'an says that Allah gave Jesus a book -called Injil. Even though the current Bible might trace its origin from that original text, over the time humans twisted its contents and made additions, omissions and alternations so that the message is drastically changed. So Kur'an is given to us to clarify the original scriptures of Moses and Jesus by correcting the misconseptions in the current texts. So Kur'an and Islam is not about a new religion, it is pretty much the same religion of Abraham, Noah and Adam but in its correct form.
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