wbb
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Post by wbb on Mar 10, 2008 4:51:12 GMT -5
Oskar ezt te mondanal nekem. mit dongolsz? The first agricultural (Neolithic - 5000 BC) settlers of this region were the Sumerian-related Turanids from the Near-East (Anatolia, Caucasia, Mesopotamia). The ancient peoples of the Balkans and of the Danubian Basin therefore originated from these first settlers. The Illyrians of the Western Balkans were among these ancient peoples, and the Pannonians of the Western Carpathian Basin were also Illyrians. Rome conquered Illyria in 168 BC and Pannonia in 10 BC. Roman sources indicate that the language of the Pannonians was related to Hungarian.Hah ;D, na most ez a macsik possibilitiye hogy a Magyarok, Panoniai voltak ami kognacio Illyrokhez. Akkor ez isz biztos hogy a Magyarok Illyroktol jottek. erdekes nem? itt van link ere. www.hunmagyar.org/taj/delvidek/index.html
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Post by oszkarthehun on Mar 10, 2008 6:53:28 GMT -5
Yes I think its very interesting WBB, I might have mentioned this theory before but I didnt recall they said any relation to Illyrians.
Certainly I have heard the theory that Hungarians been In Karpat Medenc much before 895 . I think it has good possibilty I mean its really amazing today nearly 15 millio people speaking Hungarian its hard to believe the language would survive and grow from a small nomadic population that some historians wanna suggest. So either the Hungarians who arrived in 895 must have been big group between 200,000 to 500,000 or otherwise part of the Hungarians were already there and just meet up with their brothers in 895.
I recall another theory that said Hungarians originated in Karpat Medenc then went East then come back to Hungary.
The Professor archeologist Gyula Laszlo believed that their was 2 stage migration he believed what was previously thought to be the 2nd wave of Avars in the 7th Century was in fact the first Migration of Hungarians and the 2nd Migration came with Arpad.
Otherwise even the old source Hungarian Gesta mentions that Szekely remained in Hungary from time of the Huns and lived in Hungary and Erdely then finally meet up with their brothers in 895.
I know many modern scholars say Hungarians and Huns are not the same but really I wouldnt say its not possible as far as I know there is no recorded information about language Huns spoke so really as far as we know they could have spoke Hungarian. Who knows maybe they left their language and blended in with population of Pannonia and maybe this why Hungarian was already spoken in Karpat Medenc at arrival of Arpad.
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wbb
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Post by wbb on Mar 10, 2008 19:44:39 GMT -5
i strongly believe so, they did. it's impossible that Hungarians arrived in that large numbers at that time, it would something more similar to India's mass migration in after WW2, Pakistanis to Pakistan, and Hindu's to India, can u imagine their numbers, huge man huge. Really someone was already in Pannonia when Arpad arrived, not Slavic though but rather Pannonians. I wonder why Hungarians like me are feel so extremly natives to our home, probably because we have Illyrian bloods. ;D
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Post by oszkarthehun on Mar 14, 2008 4:02:29 GMT -5
ez is nagyon erdekes More recently Professor Grover S. Krantz, anthropologist at Washington State University, studied the history and origin of the various European languages and published his findings in the book, Geographical Development of European Languages (Peter Lang, 1988). Professor Krantz set up certain guidelines, which he used diligently in his analysis, applying them uniformly to all European languages. He structured and based these guidelines on human behaviors and life-sustaining requirements such as climate, the length of the growing season, and the quality of land for herding or agriculture, etc. Regarding the Hungarian language, he arrived at the following conclusion; on page 11 he writes: "It is usually stated that the Uralic Magyars moved into Hungary from an eastern source in the 9th Century A.D. I find instead that all the other Uralic speakers expanded out of Hungary in the opposite direction, and at a much earlier date." Furthermore, on page 72, we find the following observation: "Given these objections the actual Uralic-speaking distributions would allow only one alternative explanation - that the family originated in Hungary and spread out in the opposite direction. This poses no serious problem if the time for this origin and dispersion is put at the earliest Neolithic. If this is true it means that Hungarian (Magyar) is actually the oldest in-place language in all of Europe."Krantz believes that the ancient shepherds of the Great Hungarian Plains spoke the Proto-Hungarian tongue. Closer examination of this question suggests that the early settlers from the south, shepherds and farmers alike, spoke the very same language.Sadly enough, Hungarian science failed to investigate these possibilities and for that reason it is not widely known. Perhaps the answer lies in the old tradition, when most nobleman and intellectuals spoke generally Latin and very little Hungarian. To illustrate this attitude we could site the following: Cardinal Giuseppe Mezzofanti of Italy, the director of the Library of the Vatican, spoke many languages − among them Hungarian. In 1836 he stated the following to the Czech poet, Augustine Frankl: "The Hungarians do not even know what cultural treasure their language possesses." The good Cardinal made this statement following an encounter with some Hungarian noblemen on their visit to Rome; as he looked up and began to address them in the Hungarian tongue, Mezzofanti quickly discovered that these gentlemen spoke perfect Latin, but very little Hungarian. The above quotations imply that the Hungarian language is indigenous to that region of Europe. e-kiado.imprintink.com/radics-origin-concise.pdf
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wbb
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Post by wbb on Mar 14, 2008 5:02:54 GMT -5
wow very interesting Oskar, thanks for the sources. So basically it's sound like that Magyars were ancient indigenous Aboriginal to Hungary. I strongly agreed with ur point.
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Post by oszkarthehun on Mar 14, 2008 18:09:20 GMT -5
This guy Radics is proposing quite an interesting alternative theory that is not completly baseless and their are others that share some of his ideas. I recommend reading the entire article from the link. What he seems to be proposing is that the people who spoke Magyar were living in the Carpathian Basin since the Neolithic peoples whom originally travelled many thousands of years ago from what he says to be Palestine to Pannonia from their they continued toi live and did absorb other peoples such as Scythians, Huns,Avars and later what he refers to be Arpads people whom he proposes spoke possibly more a Turkish language that impacted on Hungarian but didnt ultimatly change it so he suggests Arpads people were absorbed into the indigenous Hungarian speaking peoples. I dont know that I completly believe this theory but to some degree I remain open minded about it as some good points are made for example I agree that it is simply incredible Hungarian language has survived and flourished amongst so many other foreign languages one can only imagine this was possible due to very large/majority of the population speaking Hungarian. Here is some more excerpts from the article... The oldest Hungarian flag from the XI century displays four red and four white stripes, suggesting the original eight horka (head of the nations) had made an alliance with one another. These nations are represented by the eight stripes on the right side (left side facing it) of the Hungarian Coat of Arms. Some researchers believe that the number of nations which took part in the conquest may have been as high as ten. If so, they must have joined after the oath-taking ceremony and were not full-fledged participants in the undertaking. The Sabir nations lived next to the Khazar Empire, just north of the Azov Sea. The first mention of them was in 839, when their troops appeared in the lower Danube region. This was around the time of Árpád's birth; within a couple of decades, in 862, the young prince would lead the first military venture into Pannonia. From this point onward, Árpád's people were a factor and force in European politics and history. According to some historians, Árpád's people were forced out of their homeland, north of the Black Sea, by the advancing Patzinaks losing a great number of their families and livestock. This cannot be substantiated; yet, the string of successful military ventures beginning in the year 899 convincingly refutes this theory. Once they established firm control over the newly acquired territory, Árpád's people held the first national convention and divided the land between themselves, according to their contract agreed upon in the Vérszerződés. The Onugor tribes chose to settle on the borders of the newly conquered homeland and were in close contact with their new neighbors. These neighbors called the newcomers Ungar or Hungar, relating them to the Huns. This is most likely where our ‘Hungarian’ name first came into being. Still being debated is the size of the total population of the new alliance. In the past, it was believed to have been between 200,000 and 500,000 people; however, some put the figure much higher than this. Based on recent research, their numbers most likely did not reach two hundred thousand. The reevaluation is entirely reasonable. As Hungarian archaeologists excavated more and more cemeteries from the 9-11th centuries, they began to recognize that the numbers of the indigenous common people (the farmers erroneously thought to be Slavs) were far greater than they ever imagined. A scholar in 1959 came to the realization that, if these people were Slavic speakers, the language of Árpád would have dissolved into their language and the people of Hungary would not be speaking Hungarian today. The problem was, and still is, that the artifacts of these common people cannot be traced back to southern Ukraine where Árpád's people had come from. Professor Gyula László, a noted archaeologist, has shaped an innovative theory: the possibility that perhaps the second wave of Avars (who had moved into the Carpathian Basin around 670) were, in fact, the first Hungarian speaking people. Here again, the problem was that the artifacts of the Avars and the indigenous people in question were dissimilar; they were not of the same stock biologically or culturally and these indigenous people vastly outnumbered the combined population of the Avars and Árpád's people. Furthermore, according to Chinese sources, the early Avars spoke mainly the Turkish language, although they may also have had some Mongolian speaking tribes. Some scholars believe that Árpád's people also spoke Turkish. No doubt this has some truth to it as we see it. The question is then: who spoke Hungarian? The three and a half nations of the Sabír people could not have been the language giver to all of the people of the Carpathian Basin, even if they had spoken Hungarian. The presence of the indigenous common people, the ancient settlers with their overwhelming numbers, suggests that they were speaking the Hungarian language. The language, or the languages of the Avars and Árpád's people, made their mark on the Hungarian language, but they could not ultimately change it. Based on archaeological evidence, it can be stated that in the 10th century A. D. there were three major groups of people in the Carpathian Basin: Árpád's people, the Avars, and the common people or ancient settlers. Modern Hungarians are, therefore, the fusion of these three major groups of people.e-kiado.imprintink.com/radics-origin-concise.pdf
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